If she had not been bullying him into it, he would still be alive.
She knew what she was doing.
*From personal experience, I’ve had friends who’ve considered suicide, and I’ve told them that if they were sure then they should do it. *
Why would you even think something like that, let alone say it?
Depression is an ILLNESS,
People suffering from depression cannot make healthy decisions, because of their illness.
“I’ve had friends who’ve considered suicide, and I’ve told them that if they were sure then they should do it.” Some friend you are.
Don’t go there. Please. The “victims” in a suicide death are not limited to the person who died. Mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, friends and lovers who live on suffer, too.
Try telling an elderly grandmother that her only grandson is dead, and watch her face and body crumble to the ground. Try to imagine what it’s like for a father to identify the body of his beloved son while listening to his wife wail on the other end of the phone when she realizes she’ll never see her boy or hear him say “Hi, Mom!” ever again. Try convincing a younger sister that she shouldn’t put off her own dreams because she’s witnessed what losing a son has done to her parents. If you think that’s easy to deal with, you’d be wrong.
The aftermath of suicide is not pretty. Frankly, it sucks. And it can’t be undone.
Really? And if your “friend” had followed your advice and gone through with it, you would be okay with that? Maybe even feel like you had been helpful in helping him reach his “goals”?
Here’s where you draw that line that you find so evasive. You DO NOT encourage another person to take their own life. When somebody reveals to you that they are having suicidal thoughts they are looking for HELP. They are not looking for confirmation that it is, indeed a splendid idea. Why do you think they are telling you? Are they telling you because they are sure that this is the right thing to do? No, they are telling you because they are in so much pain, they need someone to pull them back and help them find a way to feel better.
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From personal experience, I’ve had friends who’ve considered suicide, and I’ve told them that if they were sure then they should do it.
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You should be ashamed of yourself.
As I said earlier in the thread, if this young woman did the things that she is accused of it is horrible.
What concerns me about this thread is the overall lack of skepticism about the facts, the rush to judgment on the accused, and the unwillingness to at least entertain opposing viewpoints.
As I read the articles, three things come to mind. First, it took 7 months to even charge the young woman. Why the time lag for a supposedly slam dunk case? Second, the D.A. is reportedly a friend of the victim’s family (and thus has recused himself). Would she have been charged otherwise? Third, the only “facts” we have at this point are the statements in the charging instrument. In a criminal complaint the D.A. always portrays the accusations in the light most favorable to a prosecution (yes, that’s their job, of course).
Without anything else, at least one poster is already comparing her to Charles Manson.
With regard to one crucial point: The words “get back in” are words that nearly all of us have said to a spouse, a teenager, an arguing friend, etc. at one point in our lives. So I, for one, would like to see the precise context in which she texted those words. I’d also like to know if other people were texting simultaneously, and what they were saying. Until then, I just refuse to make a judgment, particularly because she wasn’t even present.
If I could change one thing about an internet-saturated society right now, it would be the apparent urge to try to attribute most everything bad that happens to a particular, evil person. Things are rarely that simple, and they are almost surely not that simple in this case.
If there is a trial, all these facts will come out and at that time I certainly will be willing to acknowledge that she is indeed the monster that she very well may be. But I think a trial for Involuntary Manslaughter is unlikely. The prosecution sometimes over charges in order to be assured of getting something lesser that they feel is appropriate. Unless a fair, unbiased reading of the facts shows a consistent pattern of cyber bulling in this case, it seems more likely to me that she will eventually plead guilty to a misdemeanor charge of harassment and the case will go away.
MidwestDad–you are correct that we don’t know all the facts. the many texts shown could be taken out of context. However, I have to jump in on your comment that someone was comparing her to Manson. That’s simply simplistic critical reading. The remark was made that how could she be charged if she wasn’t there? and the counter-remark was made that Manson wasn’t present at crimes he was convicted for, also. To say that’s comparing her to Manson in any other way other than “not present at a crime” is the kind of logical fallacy I don’t let my first year comp students get away with.
Of course there are lots of examples of people who were “not present at a crime” being charged, such as a someone who hires someone else to attack a business partner, or whatever. In this case is Charles Manson the most appropriate example?
On some narrow level one can compare Martha Stewart and Bernie Madoff. But is that appropriate?
I hope comp students use some measure of proportionality in comparisons. Otherwise we tumble off a cliff of hyperbole, as often happens certain on TV talk shows (“But CHARLES MANSON wasn’t present during HIS crime!”).
What is interesting to me is that nobody seems to be coming forward to support this young woman (except for her parents and lawyer), at least in all the press I’ve seen. Friends and acquaintances have portrayed her as attention seeking, crying wolf, not knowing if she is telling the truth, etc. I will be interested to see what her side of this actually is if it does go to trial. Also, will be interested to see what any psychiatric evaluations that may be done say about this as well. The whole thing is very troubling.
I agree completely with MidwestDad3. I really feel that I am hearing, at best, incomplete information. I hesitate to voice an opinion at this point. As a lawyer, I see every day how versions of a story can differ greatly. i am sad about the loss of this young man’s life.
That is one of the most absurd statements I have ever read on this web site. A 17 year old girl is NOT an “authority” on anything remotely related to “whether or not a person should have killed himself.” Being a sociopath does not qualify someone to properly assess a situation of this type and she should have referred him to someone who was qualified. Additionally, she most definitely should have notified someone who was actually in a position to evaluate and help this kid deal with these powerful emotions.
I admit that sometimes what really happened and what is charged are worlds apart.Still…
I said in my first post in this thread (#9) that I’m not sure the alleged facts here fit the charge of involuntary manslaughter. In the interviews I’ve seen with her attorney, this is what he has stressed: a legal finding that a death was a suicide is legally inconsistent with charging someone with manslaughter in connection with that death. I suspect he’s right.
I also highly doubt that what she did would fit the definition of bullying. She was engaged in a conversation with him; she wasn’t taunting him, sending him UNWANTED emails, or threatening him.
So, I suspect the 7 month delay–which isn’t really that long–was in part because the DA was trying to figure out what crime she could be charged with.
I don’t find it surprising that a 17 year old girl wouldn’t realize that in a case of suicide the deceased’s phone records would be checked.
Vlad, NOBODY should ever be telling a teen to go ahead and commit suicide. Depression is a horrible illness, but in most cases it can be treated. Problems that seem insurmountable at 17 or 20 often can be resolved.
It seems like, if the allegations are true, her actions might be considered mental abuse.
This is why I think that the only people defending her have been her family/attorney.
It does seem as if she was involved in magical thinking, if she didnt realize that his phone would be found & his communication with her, revealed.
@Vladensschlutte - it surprises me that you considered “creating a separate account” to express your opinion. While I might not agree with you I certainly respect your right to express your thoughts, no matter how unpopular they might be. This discussion really has two prongs - first, what each of us thinks about her alleged encouragement from a moral perspective, and second, whether what Michelle Carter did constitutes a crime under Massachusetts law. And I do think some of us might have a different perspective on this if Conrad Roy was 80 years old and suffering from a terminal disease with no hope of recovery, that was causing him great physical pain.
I think it is fair to say that most of us value life. And most certainly we value the life of a “friend.” We want to spend as much time as we can with our friends and generally do not do or say things that might encourage their demise. When our friends are down or are having severe emotional turmoil we try to help by “building them up” and assisting them in overcoming the crisis. Generally, if you care about someone thats what you do, and certainly that is what a “friend” does.
And in situations where one is aware of another person being on the brink of suicide, I think the instinct to “help” extends beyond even our “friends.” I believe that is true for emotionally healthy people. Basically it all comes down to how you answer the question “Am I my brothers keeper?” If someone like Elie Wiesel can still answer that question affirmatively after the horrendous atrocities he witnessed, then I would like to believe that the majority of us could answer it affirmatively when faced with a person who is on the brink of suicide, friend or stranger. Maybe my view of human nature is too optimistic.
My view of the texts is that they are damning but agree with other posters that the possibility exists that they have been taken out of context. But the DA’s office after reviewing over a hundred texts issued the following statement:
Michelle Carter is being charged with “involuntary manslaughter” which under Massachusetts law is defined as
The following is a really insightful article on how that law is interpreted and what needs to be determined before someone can be found guilty:
http://criminal.attorneywdkickham.com/involuntary-manslaughter.html
I think the problem the prosecutor will face is showing “beyond a reasonable doubt” that Carter did in fact “cause” Roy’s death in that he was already contemplating suicide. Think it is more likely they could find she “contributed” to his death.
I also find it very difficult to see how this ends up being a crime, without a law crafted to address this kind of situation.
Here’s a thought experiment. Obviously it’s different from this case, but it’s crafted to remove some of the more difficult elements for the sake of a discussion. A is a person with an incurable disease that causes tremendous pain that cannot be adequately treated. A calls his friend B, and says, “I am considering ending my life to get rid of this pain. What do you think?” Let’s assume neither A nor B has religious beliefs that declare suicide to be a mortal sin. Is it wrong for B to discuss the pros and cons of such a decision with A? Would it be wrong for B to deliver an opinion that the pros of suicide outweigh the cons in A’s circumstances? Should it be a crime for B to do this? How much does it matter that suicide is illegal in the state in question?
A somewhat different thought experiment: C writes a book called “Suicide: Pros and Cons,” in which she provides a series of questions and considerations for a reader to determine whether suicide is a rational choice. Some of the decision trees in the book result in “Yes” answers. Should this book be banned?
Oh, BTW, the whole “the office is biased because the DA is some sort of cousin” thing is coming from the girl’s lawyer.
I’m not an expert on Bristol County politics but, from what I can figure out, when the investigation began, nobody but nobody ever thought Tom Quinn would be DA so soon. If your eyes don’t glaze over when local poltics are discussed, read the simplified summary below.
Being DA is an elective office in Massachusetts. Democrat Sam Sutter was elected to another term as DA in November 2014. The mayor of Fall River, one of the 3 cities in Bristol Co., was very unpopular. A recall petition was started. It worked–which is unusual, to put it mildly. The Bristol Co. DA, Sutter, decided to run for mayor. The special election was in December 2014. He ran as a Democrat. Yep, a month after being re-elected DA, Sutter ran for mayor.
Not everyone was thrilled with Sutter’s decision to run. Bristol Co. is involved in a high profile case you may have heard of–it involves a football player named Aaron Hernandez. Some folks were more than a bit annoyed that Sutter chose not to resign as DA while running for mayor of Fall River. While he was campaigning, the deputy DA, Tom Quinn, was running the DA’s office. Sutter was elected mayor and resigned. http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/12/31/political-intrigue-mix-for-filling-bristol-job/ArVBJ1x1wPqS7gUrtr2nWO/story.htmlDemocratic Governor Deval Patrick appointed Quinn to take his place as ACTING DA on January 2, 2015. He set a special election for 2016.
Meanwhile, the Democrats had lost the gubernatorial election. Under Mass law, the incoming governor can void last minute appointments made by the lame duck governor. That’s what brand new Republican Governor Charlie Baker did. However, he just voided them en masse, i.e., without actually naming the appointees whose appointments he was voiding.
A couple of weeks? --I’m not sure of exact timing–later, the Mass Secretary of State then took the position that Tom Quinn’s appointment was voided by Baker because Quinn had been appointed acting DA within the last 2 weeks Deval Patrick was in office. Of course, this had the possible effect of completing messing up the Hernandez trial–to say nothing of every criminal indictment handed down AFTER Charlie Baker voided Patrick’s appointments.
Charlie Baker then screamed and yelled that voiding Deval Patrick’s last minute appointments was not intended to apply to Tom Quinn. He was only appointed ACTING DA and thus, he would continue to be acting, until Charlie Baker appointed someone permanent.
Charlie Baker then decided to appoint Quinn the permanent DA UNTIL THE SPECIAL ELECTION NEXT YEAR. He was sworn in last Wednesday.
At least that’s the version of events I’ve been able to put together from local news.
In any event, while almost all the local attorneys and the DA’s staff thought Quinn should get the job, it was FAR from a foregone conclusion that he would.
I find it very easy to believe that Quinn wasn’t involved in a juvenile court case from the get go. I also think it rather unlikely that the people who were investigating the case were aware of the relationship between the deceased and Quinn or care about it if they did. Believe me, if the DA’s office couldn’t prosecute anyone who is related to anyone in the prosecutor’s office, half the population of Bristol County would be immune to prosecution.
My impression is that Quinn really, really wanted the DA job. He was well aware that he might not get it. I cannot imagine him jeopardizing his chance of getting appointed permanent DA by throwing his weight around inappropriately. He is also well aware that he has to run for election next year. I believe him when he says he’s recused himself.
That’s an outright lie. I responded to a comment about a legal issue. I in no way “compared” her to Charles Manson.
As it happens, I agree with your larger point about the currently popular activity of “piling on” on the internet without being in possession of all of the facts.
Are you saying that everyone has encouraged a loved one to take a self destructive action that would end their life?
^Yeah, I thought you were clear on what you were saying, Consolation, and mentioned it upthread.