The advantages of a Private High School in Selective College Admissions

epiphany · October 8, 2009, 3:09am

Way overbroad of a statement. As a whole, there is not more “credibility” to public schools. I have no doubt that public schools are being more considered in admissions than they once were, but if you believe that suddenly the Elite U’s will blindly seek what’s “hot,” vs. what is a known and less risky path, I have a bridge to sell you. They are selectively, individually examining quality students from among those public schools with quality programs as well as examining exceptionally literate homeschooled students. But there’s no mass movement away from Elite high schools, and there won’t be unless there’s a sea change in the quality of most public school education. Not to mention, there are lots of First Generation and other opportunity-challenged students at private high schools. (As more than one person said, they’re there on financial aid.)

Further, there are particular magnet schools which have sought to have a kind of monopoly representation at particular elite U’s, and actually these magnets have suffered, not prospered, in recent years, because of the similarity bordering on uniformity in some of these student bodies, which are not even vaguely First Gen or economically compromised, but extremely advantaged, to say the least.

berryberry61 · October 8, 2009, 8:38am

^^^ Excellent post Epiphany. I concur with a lot of what you say. In addition, I think there may be a difference in some folks looking at this as admits to HYP vs the original statistics which focused on all highly selective colleges and universities (which is more than simply HYP (While private schools educate only about 10% of the school-age population (and independent schools only 1%), anywhere from 20–40% of the freshmen classes of the highly selective colleges and universities come from private schools)

berryberry61 · October 8, 2009, 8:46am

DeidreTours - It seems from your response you want to disagree and argue at all costs without having a realistic discussion. Sorry, but I will not engage in that.

If you want to focus on the minutae of what others have meant by self selection / selectivity, ahve at it. I have defined what I was referring to when using that term

If you want to try to dismiss by comments with remarks like “You seem to misunderstand some basic analytical concepts” because you don’t like the data or results, so be it. I provided a second set of data that is extremely relevant and you simply seem intent on belittling it and dismissing all of it out of hand even though the data is indeed valid

I asked you to provide data to support your viewpoint - and you said you have none

At this point, it makes no sense to engage you further in debate if you can not be realistic and intellectually honest in the debate

fireandrain · October 8, 2009, 9:02am

That NY Post article explains exactly the point I was making back in my post #30. My friend’s prep school is one of the ones mentioned.

Never thought I’d think a NY Post article was good. :)

PrincipalV · October 8, 2009, 9:08am

Private schools are more likely to have a high sample of qualified URMS, athletes, legacies and development cases.

berryberry61 · October 8, 2009, 9:09am

JHS - You have presented lots of good interesting info and I agree with much of it. We do have diffeerent reactions and that is fine. While I think we may be looking at similiar popullations in some respect, I believe there are a lot of differences as well. I should note I am not in the Philly area (although I am familiar with it) and thus the difference in my area and the old mainline / Lower Merion areas may be greater than we imagine.

In my area, if I look at the top 5 or 6 public high schools, what I see is most will have a small handful (ie 1 to 3) admits to highly selective colleges and universities. And I do not see the majority of them going to the same colleges as the independent school grads in this area. Rather, most of the public school grads are drawn to a much more regional group of colleges whereas the independent school grads spread their wings over a much, much larger geographic area. I am not sure why this is the case but I would hypothosize the following:

<ol>
<li>For top students at public schools in my area, other than the 1 to 3 who attend highly selective colleges and universities, the others are focused more regionally and far less on most selective LACs. I think part of that may be a function of the schools GC and part a functon of the culture of the school (staying fairly local - going where their friends go). </li>
<li>For the average students at public schools in my area, they have even more of smaller regional focus and besides the same reasons I mentioned above, finances may also come into play here as these students would be far less likely to obtain merit aid unlike top students</li>
<li>For all of students at independent schools in my area, they look at a wide variety of schools and are not afraid to look far beyond this region. As I mentioned, over 50% of our students last year attended the Most Selective colleges and universities (and over 75% attended highly selective colleges and universities). Furthermore, there were only a small handful that are going to the more local / regional schools (ie I believe it was 2 combined at Penn State, Pitt and Temple for example). So not only the top students looking at a broad range of highly or most selective colleges, the average and bottom students are as well. I know from our stats, we have had students in our bottom 20% of the class apply to and be admitted at highly or most selective colleges (and these have been typically unhooked kids). I would attribute this partially to our colege counselers who work to help find each studnet’s best fit, who are well versed in colleges across the country, and to the student body who is willing to venture out and not just go where their freinds go. As to the admit success, I believe a lot has to do with the counslers relationship with numerous colleges as well as the success our grads have had at top schools. Most / highly selective colleges are more willing to take a chance on a student with average stats if they have had a history of success with other students from that school</li>
</ol>

Because we do not have a Penn in this area, that may limit the number of public school students striving for a school such as that. I do not know but I would guess the location of and familiarity with Penn for Philly schools is a cause of the many more admits you have there

As to your last few comments:

"First, minority kids on scholarship at the private schools, if they are decent students, attend fancier colleges than the equivalent students at public school. " - I would concur completely here. You and I are seeing the same thing

“Second, a kid with some significant “flaw” – for instance, very smart, but trouble in some classes – is likely to do much better coming from the private school.” I also agree with you here

“But as among comparable students, a lot of the difference in college opportunities and choices relates to family culture and family wealth” - While I do believe these are some of the contributing factors, I would also suggest that school culture and the quality and depth of the school’s colege counseling programs have as much, if not more of an impact here.

Thanks for the good discussion. I think one thing I have learned is the results will seemingly vary by region of the country so it may be hard to make an overall blanket statement here

vicariousparent · October 8, 2009, 9:28am

I agree with this. Probably 100% of those Dalton kids ended up at a college that would be categorized as “highly selective”. It is a question of what the Dalton parents consider “good”, which is a very small subset of what is considered “highly selective”.

berryberry61 · October 8, 2009, 9:33am

It is a bit disheartening to read the NY Post article and comments like this:

"The consensus is that the school took its eye off what its supposed to be aboutthat is, getting kids into Ivy League schools or, more specifically, the holy trifecta of Harvard, Yale and Princeton.

I would say that parents / students who are singularly focused on HYP are doing themselves a disservice. I am a big believer in finding the right fit college - and to assume it is HYP for all top students is wrong.

If these parents and others on this thread are judging success into being admitted to just HYP the same as being admitted to the most / highly selective colleges and universities, they are wrong and IMo have the wrong perspective as well.

And it is not suprising at all that some well known independent schools would have a year with no admits to HYP as it is well noted that because of their huge (some would say obscene) endowments, HYP have been under pressure to spend more of their endowments on reducing the cost of attendance / etc. HYP has chosen to do so by implementing much more generous FA policies than they have in the past which has expanded the applicant pool greatly without any corresponding increase in admits. So what was once a very tough admit process is now much tougher and really much more of a crapshoot

JHS · October 8, 2009, 10:23am

berryberry – We do agree a lot more than I thought at first. When I say “the same kids go to the same colleges”, I am referring to a subset of kids at the public schools who really are apples-to-apples equivalents of private school students. In the city, that’s a small subset, relatively, although it’s a lot more than one or two kids – probably more like 30 or 40 if you look at all of the magnet schools combined. In the Main Line suburbs, it’s a lot more.

When you look at how wide the nets get cast, the public school kids whose parents went to college and grad school far from home value leaving home, and often apply to LACs (although if they are middle class but sensitive to financial aid they may apply to less prestigious LACs than the private school kids). The vast majority of public school students do exactly as you say. Including some of the best students – the valedictorian of my son’s class applied to exactly one local public university, and planned to continue living at home. My daughter’s public school class, however, sent 8 kids to Ivy League colleges other than Penn, and only two of them were private-school types. And they were not anything like the top 8 kids – Penn, other elite universities, public universities, and a few LACs divvied up the top 8-9% of the class.

I do see something of a shift in the private school world. My older child’s former private school class initially sent a grand total of one kid to Pitt, Temple, and Penn State combined, as compared to a total of about 180, 35% of the class, from her public school class. I recently saw this year’s list from the private school, though, and there were multiple kids heading to those colleges, 10 total (and from a meaningfully smaller class, too) with another bunch going to the University of Delaware, which as far as I know was never even on the radar screens of my child’s ex-classmates. That represents a combination of the economy, real improvement in the images of the state schools, and reduced ability of the private school to place its less impressive graduates in attractive colleges. But I think there may be a trend away from LACs, too. Fewer kids from the top of the class were going to top LACs than had been the case as long as I can remember.

mom2and · October 8, 2009, 10:29am

RE; #42

Not true for our high school. The top students here are well prepared for college and typically do well. It is a mistake to assume that all public high schools are not challenging or do not prepare students well for college. A hard-working student from a good public high school is likely better prepared than a slacker or less able student from a prep school.

mom2and · October 8, 2009, 10:46am

^^ #69
Your public high school sounds exceptional. Our HS is very good, but typically sends 5 or 6 out about 400 to Ivies. The top 10% do well with LACs and top 25 universities, but even for the very best, getting into the top 10 is very difficult. A very talented student at one of the four highly regarded prep schools within traveling distance would have a better shot at admission at the top 10. We are not a top 10 HS in our state, however, so that may be a better comparision.

Kids from catholic, non-prep school or from lesser privates do not have an advantage over our top HS students. Thus, the quality and prestige of the private school is a huge issue.

I wonder if some Dalton student that got an ED to Harvard messed up and did not attend and now there is some retaliation, the counselors did not do their job, or its just a fluke and they will have better admit rates next year.

berryberry61 · October 8, 2009, 10:57am

JHS - Thanks, yes we seem to agree on a lot more than initially we thought. Your daughter’s public school is doing a great job with those numbers. I know there are some very good public schools in your area and your’s sounds exceptional. However, I would hazard a guess her school is more the exception than the rule. Just one quick point on your last paragraph.

I am not surprised to see that shift (with more kids going to Pitt, temple, Penn State and U of Delaware). But I am not so sure it as a sea change in the admission process or real improvement in the images of the state schools but rather may be a one or two year anomaly as a result of the economy. Even with our numbers, I know from speaking with our college counselers, last year moreso than any other many of our kids followed the money and made decisions based on finances. Now in our case, that didn’t really translate to a big shift to state Universitys but rather choosing a highly competitive LAC or University based on the merit aid offered. The economy definitely came into play and I would surmise that is the main reason for the shift you saw with more students going to the state universities than ever before

JHS · October 8, 2009, 12:20pm

Actually, my kids’ public high school is going the way of the dinosaurs, and five or ten years from now I think it will be very different. For decades, it was the only really high-quality public high school in the district, and it got almost all of the most talented students in the public school system. It’s a lovely institution, too – kids from all over the world, all different parts of the city, different economic circumstances, and an amazing lack of tension among them. But the current trend is to have 500-student, focused high schools all over the city, not 2,500-student high schools, and the competition is clearly eroding the critical mass of great students that makes the school. (One competitor, in a much better location, has a deserved reputation as “the public private school”, and has much better numbers and college admissions results than my kids’ school.)

I want to add that I think the great private schools around here really are great. They provide their students with exquisite educations, and really personal college advising, and they have a LOT of success. It is easy, with hindsight, to look at a kid for whom everything went right at one of the good public schools and say, “That kid would not have done any better at a private school.” That’s true. But he might have 50 classmates who WOULD have done better at a private school, because the public magnets tend to be pretty unforgiving, and it’s all too easy for an unconventional kid to slip out of the thin layer of top students who have the world as their oyster there. And its rare, if you look at a 7th or 8th grader, to know for certain what things will look like in three or four years.

I do NOT believe at all in the persistent myth that “I face too much competition in my private school, if I had gone to a public school I would have been at the top of the class.” At least from what I have seen, comparing good privates to good publics, that is not the case. And, as many have pointed out, it’s the kids who are not the creme de la creme of their class who may get a real advantage from a good private school. “May”, not “do”. Potentially both in terms of the education they receive and the prestige of the colleges they attend (if they care about that).

It shouldn’t surprise anyone that the wonderful, luxury-class college counseling at the private schools does not actually make a difference for every student. In fact, if I look at my kids’ friends, there are only a few one can point to and say “the counselor really helped this student”. It’s mostly the least academically successful students, and maybe 10% of the others. But, boy, if your kid is in that 10%, that is really important to you. It’s rarely the difference between Harvard and Hopkins. More like the difference between Smith and Drexel, or Bates and West Chester.

cellardweller · October 8, 2009, 2:04pm

That is true for many more schools than HYP. It is also true for all top 10 colleges which compete for applicants with HYP and many of the top 20 schools as well. Schools like Brown or Penn used to be considered fall backs for many top applicants. That is certainly no longer true.

At least in the ultra-competitive Northeast where parents are often Ivy obsessed, there is no advantage in admission for private school students. Because of the restrictive application policies many private schools employ, the narrower range of subjects and classes available, private school students sometimes find themselves at a disadvantage facing equally or better qualified public school students. They can’t cast a wide net among top colleges and may find that their final destination is well below their expectation.

The overwhelming majority of Intel or Siemens finalists, math and science Olympiad winners, top athletes, nationally recognized musicians, writers and other academic and non-academic superstars top colleges aggressively compete for come from public schools. As top colleges become increasingly meritocratic, there is less and less room for applicants who depend on access for admission.

DeirdreTours · October 8, 2009, 2:04pm

Berryberry–You’re kidding? You don’t want to engage me because I am asking you to thnk critically about the data you are comparing? As to my “viewpoint”-- I have not said anything expressing a belief one way or the other on admissions outcomes. What I have said is the data you have provided also SAYS NOTHING about admissions outcomes BECAUSE it DOESN"T COMPARE similar groups. I can’t understand why you doggedly refuse to acknowledge this. But I give up!

blossom · October 8, 2009, 2:53pm

If my area is typical (which it may not be) another factor contributing to the geographic preferences of public vs. private school kids are the teachers. The teachers in our local public HS are mostly from “around here”- they have master’s degrees from our flagship State U or one of the satellite campuses; they grew up in the region if not in this state or city.

The teachers in the private schools are not from “around here” (or no more so than any other profession in what is a very transient and mobile area.) Their advanced degrees are in subject matter areas, not education. They grew up all over the place; they were educated all over the place; they are frequently here because a spouse is doing a residency or completing a PhD or going to law school-- not because this is where they always intended to settle down and live. And since they don’t need to be certified-- when this stage of their life ends they pack up the apartment and go somewhere else where they know they can usually get another job teaching in a private HS.

So I see that as coming in to play. Even if the parents of the private school kids want to encourage them to stay local (within 200 miles?) there’s always the “cool” teacher who went somewhere else and is happy to talk about it.

vicariousparent · October 8, 2009, 3:55pm

I agree with this and with much of what cellardweller says on this thread.

While it is likely true that on average the independent private schools are more rigorous than the AVERAGE public schools, the very top public schools are probably more rigorous than the most elite private schools. And those public schools are probably more ‘meritocratic’, and therefore may be better launching pads for the unhooked tippy top students.

epiphany · October 8, 2009, 4:39pm

I have never ever seen that in my huge metropolitan region – not compared with the local privates, not compared with private boarding schools. You will find a handful of “top public schools” (read, rich property values) where there is a tremendous amount of grade-grubbing and AP-maneuvering, but the “rigor” is confined to merely trying to garner a higher grade than your nearby competitors, not intellectual rigor – a very different thing. If your region is different, you are fortunate.

SlitheyTove · October 8, 2009, 4:52pm

I do know of one such intellectually rigorous public in our area. I agree that this tends to be the exception, not the rule.

cptofthehouse · October 9, 2009, 7:19pm

I live in an area that has excellent school districts. Many of the high schools are the ones rated top in the country. In the suburbs, that is more a socio economic thing, since school districts are based on where one lives. In the city, the top public high schools have highly selective admissions.

The public schools have a high rate of acceptances at the top schools, just as the privates do. There are a lot of alums and “special” in this group that jack up the numbers, but the fact of the matter is that these kids tend in these top schools are the material for the most selective colleges. The test scores and the subjects these kids take, the extracurriculars all fit the profiles these schools want. Many of these schools are very familiar with the admissions officers of selective colleges and have a close working relationship with them.

In situations like that, the public schools are not off at all statistically for acceptances to selective colleges as compared to their private counterparts. And do remember that even “elite” private schools are not alike. There may well be restrictions that disadvantage certain students in certain selective private high schools when it comes to getting into a selective college. Those very restrictions also be to certain students’ advantage.

One thing I have noticed about the expensive private schools is that are more responsive to parental pressures when it comes to exceptions to rules. Though my sons’ high school had guidelines, they were flexible and I knew of many, many exceptions. My son was one of them. No pressure even needed. Gave a reason, and it was accepted. Some times public schools have rules to make it a lot easier for the staff, and not to the advantage of even the student body overall.

The advantages of a Private High School in Selective College Admissions

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