<p>As for rigor, I would have to say that a greater percentage of the kids in the elite private schools get a more rigorous and complete education than in the elite public schools. Even schools like Scarsdale, New Trier and the like who have some great stats, do have kids in their district that are not getting a rigorous college prep education. Everyone in the district is eligible to go to the school, and there are some kids that are just not college material and they need to be educated too. You don’t get that at some of the private schools I know. You are out the door even if you are a celebrity, legacy, endowment kid if you truly cannot do the minimum level of work, and that minimum is pretty danged rigorous. The bottom is far lower at some very elite public schools because it has to be for them to serve their public.</p>
<p>earlier, someone said <<the high=“” quality=“” publics=“” (around=“” here=“” anyway)=“” are=“” very=“” successful=“” in=“” getting=“” their=“” top=“” students=“” into=“” colleges.=“” fewer=“” numbers,=“” sure=“” but=“” that=“” is=“” because=“” of=“” the=“” demographics=“”>> …that is also true in the area I live in. There are some very well known private schools as well, and please don’t take offense to this anyone but it seems that while there are some very intelligent and capable private schools out there, private schools (as well as colleges) are still a business and after working at a local private school, I believe that the private schools are somehow “in bed” with these higher tier colleges and I’m quite sure they take a minimum number of these kids because there are agreements in place to do so. This may sound mean and judgemental, but I’ll bet its true to some extent. JMHO…</the></p>
<p>Epiphany wrote: <<.but the “rigor” is confined to merely trying to garner a higher grade than your nearby competitors, not intellectual rigor – a very different thing. If your region is different, you are fortunate.>></p>
<p>My region may be different, but you really can’t say that there is not an equivalent amount of intellectual rigor in a public high school - while I’m sure this varies by region ) which is what you were possibly trying to say… you should see some of the top kids at my daughters high school…and there are a few high schools in this area that I am quite sure have produced a few Harvard types…and other elite colleges. I hope you are not implying that these kids have not had / have intellectual rigor.</p>
<p>^I said that if your region is different, you are fortunate.</p>
<p>(In general, I agree with post 81, given current and career experience in education. The author of post 81 is not from my region, either.) I’m sure there are exceptions.</p>
<p>Hmm, in our area the overwhelming majority of kids who place in Intel, Seimens or other science/math type competitions, come from the large public magnet. On the other hand, when one looks as the distribution of National Merit Scholars and higher percentage of kids from the two top private place (although still smaller in absolute numbers).</p>
<p>cptofthehouse - How would you rate selective public magnet schools, then, in the continuum between private and strong public (but still feeder-based) high school? My charter HS has three levels of curriculum, and the lowest track is rather disparaged, but even that is college-prep and 99% of our graduates do go to college (albeit half to the state flagship–we aren’t crazy-competitive like Thomas Jefferson et al).</p>
<p>Keilexandra, it would depend on the schools being compared. Some schools such as Thomas Jefferson, Styuvesant where selection process is so tight, the kids will be a stronger group than many private schools that will have some special admits for athletics, celebrity, legacy, out reach programs. It is entirely possibly that such schools have a more rigorous track for every single student than a private school would offer for some of their less prepared students. </p>
<p>My sons’ private school had a maximum of 15 per class, with many classes having less than half of that many. Lots of help available for kids who are having trouble and mandatory study periods for anyone having issues. I don’t know any public school that spoon feeds at such a high level. I doubt if either of my kids would have survived at the tougher public schools as they needed some of the help available. For them it was truly an investment in education as I doubt they would have learned as much in any other environment other than being tutored/home schooled. </p>
<p>One would have to compare the test scores between the schools, average level of rigor in courseloads, and where the kids are accepted to college to come up with some sort of comparison. Surprisingly, when you look at where the kids from many of these top schools are going to college, whether they are public or private schools, there are usually a goodly number going to colleges that are not that competitive. One thing I have noticed, however, is that the top private schools do not have large numbers of kids going to the state school. A state like VA would be an exception because of how outstanding that flagship state school is. In our private school, there are years where NO kids go into the state system. That is not the case for top magnet schools which do send a number of kids to the state schools every year.</p>
<p>Once again I find myself in agreement with the last paragraph of post 87.</p>
<p>And as to TJHSST, the problem with anyone listing that as an “advantage” (equal to or more than a private), is that one reaches the level of critical mass. Lots are admitted from there to competitive privates, but they are not going to be admitted from TJ in the numbers that the students hope for or parents assume, even with the known curriculum, track record, etc. TJ is an example of marked disproportion of hopefuls relative to Ivy supply in particular. Add to that the add’l problem of its being a S&T school, and that creates a similarity in the academic profiles that reduces numbers of admits even further.</p>
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<p>I can definitely believe this. Hand-holding is hard to come by at a public school; some are focused on just graduating everyone, and others are focused on getting top students with natural talent into top schools… not so much the kids in between failure and excellence. My friend, a first-gen white student with ~2100 SATs but 3.3 GPA in honors and AP, has received very little advice about college.</p>
<p>Cptofthehouse describes the difference between the private schools and public schools I know much better than epiphany does. There is no lack of intellectual rigor at the public schools for the students who want it. There is also, however, nowhere near the degree of handholding at the top private schools that cpt describes. A student who needs that degree of handholding is “counseled out” to a gentler private school. But there is definitely more handholding and a lot more individual accommodation at the private schools vs. the publics. (Even the privates, however, are not immune to some bureaucracy. The private my kids attended asked a student there who had become a famous musician to leave, because it felt it was compromising its standards with all the accommodations to her demanding schedule.)</p>
<p>“One thing I have noticed, however, is that the top private schools do not have large numbers of kids going to the state school. A state like VA would be an exception because of how outstanding that flagship state school is. In our private school, there are years where NO kids go into the state system. That is not the case for top magnet schools which do send a number of kids to the state schools every year.”</p>
<p>CPT - This is what I have seen as well.</p>
<p>My daughter’s private school is amazing when it comes to handholding and accommodation to individual needs. The academic teachers are particularly flexible with homework deadlines and test scheduling for students taking part in athletic or debate tournaments, musical performances, etc. There are very few students who get conflicted out of classes. It is relatively easy to get rules and prerequisites waived if you really want to take a certain class. For my daughter this has been the principal benefit of switching to private school from public school. It is like travelling first class instead of coach. I am not sure the destination will be any different but the journey is certainly much more comfortable.</p>
<p>The problem that BusyMei has in a nearby thread (asst principal procrastinating in completing rec for rolling admissions) would NEVER happen in a decent private school. The counselors at D’s school made sure the school did its part. The kids asked the teachers for recs, then gave the list and info to the counselor, who would coordinate. No need to follow up; that was the counselor’s job. Recs were a part of everyone’s job description. Using completed questionnaires from students and parents, counselors could craft school letters that gave a much more informative view of the student. Top publics do the same, but most others do not.</p>
<p>In contrast, D’s good friend, val and NMF at a large suburban public, had serious difficulties in getting recs. The teachers would do a few, but then were too busy. The end result was disappointing.</p>
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<p>Apparently you don’t understand that I was agreeing, not disagreeing, with cpt’s assessment, in fact drawing equations with parallel contrasts (and some similarities) to those categories in my region.</p>
<p>There are, however, greater contrasts in my region than in some other regions that I can name, and those observations are also valid.</p>
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<p>Maybe not in your region. I also know that this can vary. There is a spectrum among privates, just as there is among publics, but in my long and current experience, much less of a spectrum among my own region’s publics. This is not to say that privates are always to be preferred, or are “better” for all students, all circumstances, all intellectual appetites. They are not. Again, it depends on what the student’s options are in the student’s region. I’ve noted some areas where privates, for example, are anything but accommodating, quite literally.</p>
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<p>This is an example of a radical difference between virtually any public in my region and independent privates in particular. In that respect, I actually don’t agree with one of the sentences in that same post:</p>
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<p>When the student can demonstrate ability to take an add’l Honors course which is not granted to most students, when a student can qualify for an AP through legitimate means (again proving prior performance) – rather than having to take the Honors course first, when a student can change classes late in the semester, when a student can request that the faculty literally create a class for the student to pursue independently, when a student can take a core class through independent study so that there’s room in the day for an add’l challenging class that appeals… all these options combine to provide an ideal course of study both for intellectual satisfaction and for Elite college admissions. (Students who desire such options and utilize them have terrific admissions results.) I call that a different destination indeed, on top of the pleasant journey.:)</p>
<p>I can’t find a single public in my area which waives prerequisites, allows for switching classes except for very early in the semester, waives the maximum study load, or creates a custom class. And you would virtually have to get an Executive Order or a Papal Dispensation to do Independent Study (in a core class). Even for Special Ed kids with legitimate need for some of this, there is vehement opposition from administrations.</p>
<p>epiphany, I had qualified that statement with “for my daughter”. I was being optimistic in my statement that that she would end up at the same destination.</p>
<p>She transferred from a very good well-known public to a very good private one (because we moved). She was ranked#1 of about 300 in her class in the public, a school where the top students invariably get acceptances at some combination of H, Y, P, and where about 5-10% of the class ends up at ivies. She is now ‘one of the top’ unranked students in a class of about 70, at her private school which last year sent one student to an ivy, not H, Y or P. Had she continued in her public, she would be almost a sure bet for HYP and other ivies. Here, it will be a greater challenge. I am hoping her record (and recommendation) from her old public school will make the difference for her. In other words, I am hoping she can arrive at the same final destination.</p>
<p>We’ve had courses waves - mathson went straight to AP Comp Sci and they were willing to let CTY go for chemistry. He took math multivariable as an independent study - there actually was a class, but it conflicted with AP Latin. You can’t change a class late in the semester - not sure how that would work. Teachers have occasionally offered new courses either because they wanted to (Latin teacher wanted to offer Greek) or student requests - this year there are African and Latin American history electives.</p>
<p>mathson got much more accomodation for his math needs in elementary school (went to a 3rd grade classroom in first grade worked on independent projects after that) than my nephew did in a very well regarded private school. </p>
<p>So while some private schools may be more flexible and some public schools less so, that isn’t always the case.</p>
<p>^ Again, for the 3rd time now…</p>
<p>Differs by school, differs by region. Your (public) examples above are nonexistent in my region, and I’m happy for you.</p>
<p>Post 96:</p>
<p>And I have no doubt about that, in your area possibly. The Vals of the highest ranked public in my area do not generally go to H, Y, or P, nor do 5% go to Ivies. This is probably a result of much greater (more intimate, and longer) knowledge of some public schools than others.</p>
<p>Yes, epiphany, that is my point too- there are some great public schools and some great private schools. There are lots of regional variations.</p>