<p>Sybbie,
Thank you for that beautiful post.
I also love that poem by Nikki Giovanni.</p>
<p>“This is one of the most hearbreaking things I’ve ever read. Do you know how this little boy (your cousin?) turned out?”</p>
<p>He married a beautiful dark skinned woman who was from the rural South, and loved him deeply until he died a few years ago. During WWII, he was a military photographer who took pictures of the Tuskeegee Airman.</p>
<p>He had a daughter and son, and his daughter (dark skinned) was an Ebony Fashion Fair model who was featured in their ads.</p>
<p>Somehow, he had a pleasant relationship with his mother, and his kids also were close to her. He must have had a very compassionate heart.</p>
<p>"There were also restricted membership clubs for those of German, Polish, Scandinavian, Italian, etc. descent. It’s not surprising that blacks also had their own social organizations. "</p>
<p>Well, sure, but that’s not really what’s controversial. The controversial part is that some of those black social organizations were restricted against other BLACKS on the basis of skin color alone. If that’s true of Jewish, Scandinavian, etc. social clubs, it’s news to me. I do know of Jewish social organizations divided by Jewish ethnicity – German Jews vs. Lithuanian Jews, etc. – but it isn’t quite the same thing.</p>
<p>Northstarmom, Some people are incredibly resilient, aren’t they? He must have been cared for very well by his father’s family.</p>
<p>Honestly, is there any other race of people that discriminates against their own people based on skin tone? Well—come to think of it, I remember learning about the Indian Caste System in grade school, how that in order to be a member of an upper caste, you had to be light skinned (the lighter, the better), and if you were a member of the lowest caste, an “untouchable”, you were invariably very dark skinned. I know it was probably more complicated than that. And I’ve heard that the power of the Caste System has been greatly diluted in India. Can anyone comment?</p>
<p>I remember thinking at the time, “Wow, that sounds like the way things are here with us colored folks.” Only in a way, the Caste System seemed even more rigid, more cruel and unforgiving. Later, I thought about how both the Indians, and American Negroes had come under British Colonialism, that perhaps there had been a common social strategy that expedited the instituting of such divisive stratification within a race of people.</p>
<p>I know that in the case of African Americans, the light skinned/dark skinned social dynamic has been nothing short of poisonous. I don’t think many white people have any sort of frame of reference by which to grasp upon such a thing existing among whites, nor to understand the historical magnitude of this phenomenon within black society, nor its far reaching social dynamic. It’s a psychic schism that still divides the African American community, and ever the more insidious because it’s something many of us like to pretend no longer effects us. Despite the Black Pride and Black Power movements, this subterranean toxin of self denial, and self hatred, still informs many attitudes within the black community. I believe it’s one reason why there are still little black kids who assign all the negative traits to the black doll, when administered “The Doll Test”.</p>
<p>“Northstarmom, Some people are incredibly resilient, aren’t they? He must have been cared for very well by his father’s family.”</p>
<p>Thanks for that insight. I’d never thought of it that way. His father’s family was my family. Interestingly, my mother always thought that he was the most handsome of her cousins. She thought the combination of his very dark skin and curly, dark hair was beautiful.</p>
<p>When thinking about the light skin/dark skin discrimination that has existed in African Americans, it’s important to realize that it relates directly to how whites treated them.</p>
<p>On plantations, blacks with lighter skins were more likely to get easier jobs – in the house – instead of laboring in the fields. That’s because they were more likely to be related (through rape of course) to the owners. </p>
<p>Being lighter also raised the possibility that one could escape and pass for white.</p>
<p>Even when my grandmother (born in 1893) was doing her student teaching in the D.C. area, the student teachers with light skin got the better assignments – in the city of D.C. Even though my grandmother was first in her class, she was assigned to rural Virginia for her student teaching.</p>
<p>She made a point of marrying “up” – a man with light skin so as to try to give her kids better opportunities. </p>
<p>Until colonialism, I don’t think that Africans discriminated due to skin color. Now, however, in Africa and the Caribbean, you see people – particularly women – with unnaturally pale skin and dark bodies. They are using bleaching cream to try to appear more beautiful.</p>
<p>Incidentally, the same interest in light skin exists now in Asia. When I was in Hong Kong last summer, I saw lots of advertisements for bleaching cream, and you could get facials to lighten your skin. Part of this may be due to people with lighter skin being seen as upper class since the upper class didn’t get tan due to not having to labor in the fields. However, part also is due to the colonial experiencein which the whiter you appeared to be, the better you were supposed to be.</p>
<p>Sad for me to see, too, that so many Asian women are getting breast enhancements and eye surgery to make their eyes round so they look more like white women. They also are bleaching their hair. Sad that they do so much to change the way they look when they are beautiful the way they are.</p>
<p>I have an Asian friend who says she’s considered beautiful in the U.S., but ugly in Asia because her eyes are too traditionally Asian. Sad, very sad.</p>
<p>“perhaps there had been a common social strategy that expedited the instituting of such divisive stratification within a race of people.”</p>
<p>Maybe the strategy was the same, but the caste system predates British colonialism by hundreds (thousands?) of years. So British exploitation of the system, yes, but it wasn’t instituted under the British. Caste is understood as going back to the time of Creation; different castes are supposed to have emerged from different parts of God.</p>
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<p>European Colonialism was certainly the source of problems for generations within Rwanda. The two tribes, Tutsi and Hutu, are readily distinguishable. The Tutsi are taller, lighter, thinner-facial features. Hutus are shorter, darker and kind of barrel-chested. </p>
<p>French colonists favored the Tutsi appearance and gave them higher level positions in colonial government. When the French left, the newly empowered Hutu’s took revenge upon the Tutsi’s. When the Tutsi’s returned to power, they flattened the Hutu’s. </p>
<p>This hatred ricocheted back and forth throughout the 20th century, with tribal genocide during the end of the century. Bill Clinton said his failure to address genocide within Rwanda was the single biggest regret of his presidency.</p>
<p>I remember being in Japan in 1980 and seeing no Asian models in ads. One department store had enormous photos of Catherine Deneuve plastered all over. I found this very sad at the time; of course it is consistent with having surgery and bleaching skin and hair to appear more white. Note that men don’t do this! </p>
<p>I also find it very sad to think of a black woman searching for a light-skinned husband in an effort to improve her future children’s lives.</p>
<p>For those of you who have asked me to change my screenname i didn’t create this account originally a friend created it for me because my computer developed a limewire virus. I’m aware of sorority discretion because of my mom…my friend however was not and thought it was cute. I don’t believe I can change it without getting a new account. If however I can please tell me how. Otherwise I’ll get a new account once this thread is closed to eliminate any confusion by switching mid conversation.</p>
<p>Ok now on to more important things</p>
<p>Northstarmom: “What is your opinion about these ideas?”
I don’t think it is our responsibility to help those who have less than us, but I think if you have a good heart you will. I believe the problem with the ideas we currently have with help is that we aren’t really helping. For example president bush gave more money than any other president to africa yet it didn’t help how it could because the leaders of the country didn’t distribute the money correctly and instead built huge mansions in the middle of their citizens living in poverty. Similar to no child left behind. This caused a friend of mine to be reccommended for this horrible diploma that part of the agreement with the diploma is that you can’t go to college or the military service. She was an eighth grader when she agreed to this diploma and only chose it because there was no foreign language requirement and only 2 years of each basic subject. I read into it and advised against it, but she thought that since i was going to a prep school the next year I didn’t know what was best for my friends at public school. So next year when she graduates she’ll be continuing her job at McDonalds and trying to get a promotion. Two examples of help gone wrong, which makes me wary of rather or not the help the US tries to give is effective.</p>
<p>"my own father once told me you can always tell about a man by how he treats waitresses and shoeshine boys. "
Very true. An ex boyfriend of mine got very angry at a waitress when we first started dating. I didn’t think much about it. 3 months later whoever the was behaving he same way around me.</p>
<p>“Somehow, he had a pleasant relationship with his mother, and his kids also were close to her.”
So did the mother realize that she was wrong or did the grandchildren just accept their grandmother’s ignorance?</p>
<p>“And I’ve heard that the power of the Caste System has been greatly diluted in India. Can anyone comment?”
Their caste system is still a major part of their society. According to a friend of mine who moved from India his family is at the top of the caste system because they are religious clergy. They are extreme advocates of skin bleaching to become lighter. Along with many other Asians. This was the result of British colonization just like African-American’s obsession with lighter skin came from European colonization of Africa and slavery. Colonization and slavery made our race and their race believe that the europeans were superior causing a desire to look closer to them. Now many deny that this is the reason for wanting lighter skin, but it is so far embedded into the brains of our race now that many people don’t realize slavery is why they still feel this way.</p>
<p>“She thought the combination of his very dark skin and curly, dark hair was beautiful.”
I’ve always wondered about this. I think someone should do a study. In black america where skin color and hair texture are the main physical attributions many people look for in a date what takes dominance. Nice hair or light skin. My grandfather is dark skinned but since his mother is mixed, by the result of rape, he has extremely curly hair just like a mixed persons. Since he has dark skin, when he was young women would always be very curious of why such a dark man had such curly hair. On the reverse side the woman he married had light skin yet coarse hair. My grandmother obssesses over skin, but more so over hair. Maybe because hers is not what most consider “good.” She believes my hair is gorgeous, but my skin not so much. But which is more important in the minds of those who feel any African features place you closer to “unattractive”. My grandma chose a dark man, but he had mixed hair. Yet my grandpa choice a light women, but she had coarse hair. </p>
<p>“I also find it very sad to think of a black woman searching for a light-skinned husband in an effort to improve her future children’s lives.”
The old concept of ‘adding milk to my coffee’ heard many people discussing this. You should marry someone because you love them, but growing up darkskinned I’ve come to at least understand why people have this mindset. For a couple of years I cried myself to sleep every night(in middle school when teasing is very normal)because I was teased for my skin tone. It isn’t even extremely dark. Think Gabrielle Unions color. It is hard for me to think that I’d put kids through what I’ve been through. So I can see why people would want lighter kids. At the same time maybe we should focus more on removing these sterotypes than trying to produce lighter kids.</p>
<p>““Somehow, he had a pleasant relationship with his mother, and his kids also were close to her.”
So did the mother realize that she was wrong or did the grandchildren just accept their grandmothers ignorance?”</p>
<p>The grandmother was only 16 when her son was born. The father, N, my cousin, was 18. I think she was immature and grew out of her ignorance.</p>
<p>For some reason, my side of the family always remained close to her possibly because she and her ex-husband were both immature when they married. Her grandchildren didn’t know how she had behaved to her dad. In fact, I didn’t know until I was in my 40s. The grandchildren aren’t color struck.</p>
<p>“The old concept of ‘adding milk to my coffee’ heard many people discussing this. You should marry someone because you love them, but growing up darkskinned I’ve come to at least understand why people have this mindset. For a couple of years I cried myself to sleep every night(in middle school when teasing is very normal)because I was teased for my skin tone. It isn’t even extremely dark. Think Gabrielle Unions color. It is hard for me to think that I’d put kids through what I’ve been through. So I can see why people would want lighter kids. At the same time maybe we should focus more on removing these sterotypes than trying to produce lighter kids.”</p>
<p>Really sad that even now African American children think they are ugly because of comments other African Americans make about their dark skin. While things are better than they were when I was growing up, I wish even more progress had been made.</p>
<p>“The old concept of ‘adding milk to my coffee’ heard many people discussing this.”</p>
<p>My late mother, bless her heart, used to tell me that her mother (my same very beloved grandmother who hadn’t been allowed to student teach in D.C. because she was dark skinned, and who married a light skinned man) told her not to marry a dark skinned man who’d give her kids that would “look like rare animals from the zoo.”</p>
<p>Mom – who was fairly light with soft, long, wavy hair and features that reflected the Native American part of our background – married my dad, who was dark skinned with a broad nose, but who had soft hair. I was a disappointment to Mom because I inherited his nose and somehow got very coarse hair. I don’t think she was pleased with my skin, which is medium brown, but she never talked about that, but did use my grandmother’s words when advising me what kind of man to marry.</p>
<p>I made a point of never allowing that kind of talk around my sons, who have never made any comments about anyone’s skin color, facial features or hair texture. There’s no indication they chose friends or romantic interests based on superficial things like that.</p>
<p>In adulthood – mature adulthood – I came to appreciate my hair, which I now wear in long locs. I get lots of compliments on it from people of all races, something that always surprised my mom. :)</p>
<p>I think that when we embrace with love who we are, the world does, too.</p>
<p>I was a young child during the sixties black power movement. My parents rejected that type of self-hate and drilled into my siblings and I that we were bright and beautiful children with beautiful nappy hair and brown skin. I sported an afro early on and have continued to do so with little breaks here and there. It saddens me that 40 years after “say it loud” there are people that attempt to decide who is worthy or who is attractive based on skin color, hair texture or family background. I’ve taught my children as I was taught - to love themselves the way God made them. </p>
<p>Poetsheart and Northstarmom hit the nail on the head - forget all that superficial stuff. Let’s look at and lift up those black people that have worked hard, achieved great things and have reached out to help others. Personally, I’m not impressed with the ridiculous superficiality of some of our sisters and brothers and believe it to be a terrible waste of time and resources. Let’s focus on what counts.</p>
<p>The Asian female beauty standard has always prefer lighter skin color. This has been for thousands of years. You can find that in the classical literature. Look at the facial make-up of the Geisha. Not everything in the world is due to European racism.</p>
<p>It is a wonder with all the pressure that any of us ever grow to love ourselves! But we do! And I don’t look like Catherine DeNeuve.</p>
<p>I recently watch Monsoon Wedding and was struck by how pale the bride was. I’d be curious to know how she fits into the current Indian ideal of beauty. I thought she had a very interesting face, was pleasantly normal looking unlike most anorexic American and British actresses.</p>
<p>“The Asian female beauty standard has always prefer lighter skin color. This has been for thousands of years. You can find that in the classical literature. Look at the facial make-up of the Geisha. Not everything in the world is due to European racism.”
Geishas are Japanese my major reference was to Indians. As far as their makeup that isn’t worn as much anymore and is usually only worn during special performances. The only time it is worn consistently is during the maiko years which are the first three. It has more to do with distinguishing them from the older geishas than the white color being superior because after the maiko years they wear subtle makeup that shows their natural beauty. </p>
<p>“Really sad that even now African American children think they are ugly because of comments other African Americans make about their dark skin. While things are better than they were when I was growing up, I wish even more progress had been made.”
You really think it’s gotten better? I wasn’t around back them obviously but my mom never mentions having any problems growing up with being a darker skin complexion. Of course she may have chosen not to discuss that with me. After all my dad is a light skinned man even though my mom insist that she thinks darkskin males are more attract. Makes me wonder what her mom taught her. I don’t even believe she finds my father attractive. With all the music videos discussing the need to find a “red bone” girl or high yellow i feel like we are getting nowhere. As well as the issue that in most videos there are currently no darker skinned females unless the lead singer is a dark skinned female. Such as Cherish, which happens to be a darker skinned group. If this is improvement I’d hate to see what it use to be like. There aren’t enough black people at my current school to care about skin color much, but at my middle school it was a majority black suburb. The ONLY way a guy would consider dating a dark skinned girl was if she would have sex. At my current school even though the black students stick together as far as friendship you can still sometimes tell the guys preference with lighter females. I don’t believe this is a class thing though that should be blaimed on the black upper class. I experienced this even worse at the less afluent school before attending prep school. So it’s superficial but an issue within the entire black community. I did find differences within the reasoning though. At my public middle school guys thought it was more attractive because that is what BET said and what their friends said. etc. At prep school I find alot of people more concerned with the issues that will bring them later in life. They feel that dating lighter or even white will make them seem higher socially and more affluent than dating someone whose skin shade is closer to black than white. There reasoning has nothing to do with BET because even though most of them are in high school and graduating soon that channel has been blocked in their home since black ownership of the channel was no longer the case.</p>
<p>Can we start using quotes please.</p>
<p>[<em>quote]text you want quoted[</em>/quote]</p>
<p>Remove the asterix.</p>
<p>Hello, I’m new to the forum but thought I can add my perspective of things regarding the topic because it is a topic that is being discussed more whether or not as a result of Lawrence Graham’s book. So here it is!</p>
<p>Okay, eventhough I despise referring to myself as such, for the sake of the argument, I am actually from an “established” family (<em>I’m cringing</em>) from Chicago. In fact my family wasn’t mentioned in the book but an individual from my family was. So I think that I am qualified to offer an honest legitimate perspective. To be honest we didn’t even know Graham had came out with the book until we were told that our relative was mentioned in it, and so we decided to see what he had to say for ourselves.</p>
<p>My biggest issue with Larry’s book is that he has a pesky way of “Glamorizing” or “Playing Up” certain idea’s, individuals, events, etc. For all of his naive rhetoric on 'the rules" that will place you “in or out” of black society, it only reveals that he is nothing but an outsider. To be quite honest, speaking from within my own city, you can have the fairest skin, the most stellar resume, and the most thorough pedigree, but you can throw it out the window because those are never the qualifiers. Those “in the know” will tell you that it has nothing to do with any rules, but whether or not you are considered to be the “right fit”. In my town, it is CHARACTER and your dedication to the black community that puts you in. All of Larry’s rules and regulations is what someone may get from the outside looking in, but is a far cry from the reality of things. I am not saying that the things that he mentions never happens, but for the most part he makes some sweeping generalizations.</p>
<p>As far as the brown paper bag principle goes, I will honestly say that it happens, but you will see it more in the smaller southern cities. In fact, my great aunt was one of the charter members of the Chicago Chapter of the Girlfriends, Inc. and almost half of the members had a darker complexion.</p>
<p>Most of the time the families that Graham considers as upper class never really made a concious effort to distinguish themselves as such. Most of their institutions were a product of simply a professional group within an discriminated people. They were buffers that they set up for their families to protect them from the realities of the real world. Everyone can relate to this. Then the small groups or clubs that they established were usually made up of friends, family members, people from their churches; People that they knew. Now people will construe this and say they were being exclusive, but that isn’t reality.</p>
<p>To answer the question about whether or not “the haves” should be obligated to the welfare of the “have nots”, I don’t see it any other way. The true essence of being an “elite” of a group of people is to be able to have the POWER to make waves within regards to your people. It is the power to bring businesses to your community, the power to lift morale within your community, the power to bring about an overall change, the power to know that any decision you choose to make can heavily impact someone else’s life. If you don’t use what you have for this purpose, well you can’t call yourself the “elite” of much of anything.</p>
<pre><code> ““I know both of my parents, but grew up with only one of them. I’ve worked hard to get where I am currently but to Graham that wouldn’t matter because I only have “correct” lineage on one side of my family. That was my point of listing my accomplishments. Debutante yes. AKA legacy yes. Jack and Jill. No. Links mother. No. Those require nominations, and my mom like I previously mentioned doesn’t come from the right family to recieve nominations. She was raised in a 2 bedroom house with 6 people. My father however is the one who was raised like Graham prefers. So in a sense I’m torn between the two worlds.””
</code></pre>
<p>–FutureSpelmanAKA-- Just some FYI… For a time Larry’s family lived in Chicago so my family knows of them. I find it ironic that you made this statement because for some time the author’s father was nothing but a Fireman!</p>
<p>From someone who is obviously unfamiliar with the topics, just a note to say that this is a wonderful thread.</p>