The Bruce Jenner Interview

Parent Cafe
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In @randco’s defense, I’ll remind readers here that many of us females who came to maturity during the flowering of the feminist movement were deeply instilled with the mindset that our gender is not our destiny and that our accomplishments and satisfactions in life are not be determined by our biology. So when I hear someone say “I feel like a woman,” my reaction is “What the heck does it mean to feel like a woman?” Despite my gender, I’ve always had many male friends. I chose a profession where women were a small minority. Apart from the sexual preference that led me to marry a man and the biology that allowed me to bear children, my identity as a woman has not been something I’ve ever thought about or clung to. So while I am happy to let others live as they choose and support their choices, it’s very hard for me to wrap my head around the idea of gender dysphoria. I can’t understand how Bruce Jenner feels and I never will, and that means there’s a gulf between me and the transgender population that I can’t bridge. A commentator I listened to recently noted that straight person can appreciate in some fashion a gay person’s sexual attraction to the same gender, because we all experience sexual attraction. But it’s very difficult to appreciate a trans person’s feeling of living in the wrong gender if the whole concept of living in a particular gender is just not one we connect to in the first place.

I realize my inability to relate to the internal struggle of the transgendered is of no importance or concern to that community, nor should it be. But I don’t think I’m alone in my feelings, and that lack of connection is one more element of the transgender-cisgender conversation.

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@mommaj -

The problem is,as you point out, that for most people when their gender identity matches their body, they really don’t notice it, they just are. Since you mentioned growing up during the years of the feminist movement, one analogy someone used (and it is just that), is imagine you are a twenty first century woman, who has achieved in the workplace, is your own person, and you were thrust back in time to let’s say the 18th century when a woman was basically the property of her husband, thought to be both weaker and also much less a person, where every aspect of your life would probably grate against the way you had achieved in your life, from being someone respected and listened to in the workplace let’s say, to being a man’s wife and looked at as just that. You would see it in a lot of ways, how people treated you, how little control you would have over your own life, and so forth, and you would probably feel it because it so flew in the face of the way you expected to live. It is only a rough analogy, but I suspect it gives an inkling of what it is like to be transgender, to be reminded by myriad things that the way you are isn’t right, whether it is physical characteristics, or the way they are treated (one of the things a friend of mine said was that interacting with women presenting as a male, the way she was born, and then after transition were two totally different experiences, that how a woman deals with someone she sees as another woman is very different than with a man, the way the interactions happen, the subtle clues, are quite different, and that it was only after she transitioned and was accepted as a woman that she realized why it felt uncomfortable interacting with women before transition).

The thing is, when you grow up as a woman or man and feel comfortable with it, you don’t notice it, you simply are, it is only when there is non concordance that saying things like “I feel like a woman” make sense, it is in the dischord I guess you discover the difference. And yes, it is very hard to know or understand it , analogies only go so far.

That not seeing it can be shown by another analogy. Often, you hear people (straight people) say things about gays with the battle over same sex marriage “why do they have to flaunt it?”, and in effect say that “I don’t flaunt my sexuality, I don’t flaunt my relationships”…and the answer is, to the person saying that, they don’t even notice it. If you have a gay couple on tv, they talk about flaunting it, yet tv is full of couples, straight couples. Straight married people wear wedding rings, they have pictures of their spouse and kids in the office, and will talk about their home life around the water cooler, but they don’t see that as ‘flaunting it’, to them it simply is normal, since of course the world for the most part is dominated by straight couples and families, and that is so ‘normal’ you don’t even notice, the way that people don’t notice so many routine things, because ‘it just is’.

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I’ll comment by quoting something I wrote about gender identity and “feeling like a woman” on a private trans-related message board, back in 2008, three years after my transition and one year before my gender confirmation surgery (or genital reconstruction surgery, or gender reassignment surgery, or whatever term one prefers):

*You know, the thing about not knowing what “feeling like a woman” means is only partly a joke. Because I really have no idea. And there have been, and still sometimes are, times it’s made me feel insecure, given the numbers of trans women who apparently knew they felt like women when they’d never lived as anything other than boys and men. So it’s been frustrating to me that I not only don’t know what it means, I can’t even imagine what it could possibly mean, or how anyone could be sure that it’s fundamentally the same as what other women feel (and different from what men feel). (But, then again, nobody can really know that what they feel is the same as what any other human being feels. See the final story in James Joyce’s “The Dead.” Snow falling over Ireland, and all that.)

And because of that incomprehension, it’s been hard for me at times – confessing a little shameful secret of mine – truly to believe that I am a woman. Other people seem to be way more sure of my being a woman than I’ve been; everyone seems to perceive me as one and treat me as one, and seems to think I’m crazy to worry about it. And I know many trans women who seem supremely sure that they are, in fact, women. But, I’ve often thought, how do I really know, how can I be sure of it the same way I know, without any doubt, that, say, I’m a parent, or I’m Jewish, or I’m New York born? I can say it to others, easily, but, much as I’d like to, can I really say it to myself and not have doubts; be sure of it in my soul? And if I only could understand what it means to “feel like a woman,” would that be the key to being sure that I am one?

But I decided some time ago that I simply can’t (or, at least, shouldn’t!) do this to myself anymore. Maybe the uncertainty will never go away, but I can only feel like I feel, like I’ve always felt – that I’m me, only me, always one person – and that’s never going to change. I think it’s precisely this kind of endless search for the Holy Grail of “feeling like a woman” that basically caused [a certain once-famous trans woman known for her insecurities] to decide that in order to find that magical certainty of being and feeling like a woman she’s had to physically obliterate all traces of her prior appearance and personality, hoping that that’s the key to being able to finally say “I’m a woman,” with no 3:00 o’clock in the morning doubts and fears. But I don’t think she’s ever going to find what she’s looking for.

Because I’m not sure there’s anything to find. Am I saying that I don’t really believe in gender identity? No, not really. Obviously gender expression (as tied to either sex) is purely a social construction, as are gender roles (other than reproductive ones). But that doesn’t mean that some people don’t have an innate identity, any more than the fact that being left-handed or right-handed doesn’t matter, means that there’s no such thing as innate “handedness.” I can assure you that my being left-handed is something that wasn’t “socially constructed,” and I don’t believe that my gender identity was either. Maybe Julia Serano is right; maybe it isn’t conscious, but subconscious. There has to be some reason I always wanted to be a girl from my earliest memory (long before I had any idea that I would be “lucky” enough someday to end up as small as I did, making it easier to be perceived as female); there has to be some reason (such as a hard-wired internal “body map,” which some research suggests exists) that from a very early age, when I barely knew, if at all, the physical difference between boys and girls, I used to spend time doing everything I could, when alone, to conceal my external genitals; there has to be some reason that I was absolutely certain, from the very first time I went out in public five years ago and realized that it was possible for me to blend in, that living as a woman was the right thing for me to do and that my life would be better that way. There has to be some reason that having a (reasonably) female body has seemed so much more “right” to me than having a male one; there must be some reason that I was so certain (correctly), when I had [a certain preliminary operation], that that part of my body was meaningless to me and there was a zero chance of regret; there has to be some reason that I know the same will be true of SRS. There has to be some reason that despite more than a century of research, nobody has ever been able to establish any kind of reason for the existence of trans people that’s attributable to “nurture” – all the baseless theories about strong mothers and absent fathers notwithstanding! And that there has been quite a bit of neurological research over the last couple of decades strongly suggesting that trans people, even before hormone therapy, resemble their preferred gender more than their assigned one.*

[continued]

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[continuation]

*There has to be some reason everything suddenly seemed so right when I started living in the world as a woman, as if I were suddenly directly connected to the world and the people in it, instead of always feeling one step removed, always a little off center or out of focus. There has to be some reason why people in general – male and female – are so much nicer, more open, more friendly with me than they used to be. There has to be some reason why I don’t hate who I am anymore, and no longer go through life wishing I were something else, and why I’m not perpetually anxious all the time. There has to be some reason why everyone seems to perceive and treat me as a woman. And there has to be some reason why all of this seemed to happen so easily and why so many things in my life seem so much easier. Which, of course, is why I wanted to transition; I certainly didn’t do it to make my life more difficult. That committed to “being a woman no matter what,” I never was!

And whatever the reason is for all these things, doesn’t really matter. Since I’m reasonably sure that the magic light bulb of “feeling like a woman” is never going to light up inside my head, these feelings are pretty much all I have. And if they’re the best I’m ever going to have, then I might as well go with it and finally believe that I am what I’ve always wanted to be, and what everyone seems to tell me I am. (After all, how is it that most natal women “know” they’re women, or most natal men “know” they’re men? Partly, of course, because their bodies conform, to a greater or lesser degree, to what’s considered standard for their sex. But also, I suspect, because everyone’s been telling them they were girls or boys, everyone’s been treating them as girls or boys, from the moment they were born. So, I might as well go with the program!)

Hopefully, then, one byproduct of the last three years going the way they have is that I’m done with all the omphaloskepsis of “am I? am I really? why don’t I feel like one?,” round and round in endless circles. For me, “that way madness lies; let me shun that; no more of that.”

And please don’t think that I’ve spent the last three years stuck inside my head thinking about all that. Most of the time, I have too much else to think about! After all, I can honestly say that transition-related issues (except as they affect my son) haven’t been even in the top four in importance of things I’ve had to deal with in the last few years. Being a parent has been more important, and required far more emotional resources (especially the last few years, with all the college-related stuff). Dealing with my job. Dealing with the devastation of the breakup with [a woman I was in a relationship with]. And, as always, having to deal with, and worry about, my health.

So, transition per se has been maybe number 5. Which is probably one reason I’ve found it so relatively easy, in a practical sense!*

By the way, a lot of the self-doubts about “really” being a woman went away after I had GRS in 2009. Not that I think that’s what made me a woman or makes anyone else a woman, but it helped me a lot not to have that cognitive dissonance about my body anymore. For me, at least, the physical dysphoria was always at least as strong as the social dysphoria. It was never solely a question of preferring the social role associated with women, let alone about clothing.

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So interesting and helpful, DonnaL. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings. The point about physical vs social dysphoria was really interesting. Really appreciate your openness.

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“In @randco’s defense, I’ll remind readers here that many of us females who came to maturity during the flowering of the feminist movement were deeply instilled with the mindset that our gender is not our destiny and that our accomplishments and satisfactions in life are not be determined by our biology. So when I hear someone say “I feel like a woman,” my reaction is “What the heck does it mean to feel like a woman?” Despite my gender, I’ve always had many male friends. I chose a profession where women were a small minority. Apart from the sexual preference that led me to marry a man and the biology that allowed me to bear children, my identity as a woman has not been something I’ve ever thought about or clung to. So while I am happy to let others live as they choose and support their choices, it’s very hard for me to wrap my head around the idea of gender dysphoria. I can’t understand how Bruce Jenner feels and I never will, and that means there’s a gulf between me and the transgender population that I can’t bridge. A commentator I listened to recently noted that straight person can appreciate in some fashion a gay person’s sexual attraction to the same gender, because we all experience sexual attraction. But it’s very difficult to appreciate a trans person’s feeling of living in the wrong gender if the whole concept of living in a particular gender is just not one we connect to in the first place.”

I can completely connect with that paragraph. I feel that I have many typically male characteristics, and many female ones. Most of the people that I know and work with are men. If I was in a room full of people I didn’t know, I’d end up talking to some guy about aviation. I honestly don’t think I would have minded at all if I was born a man. Nobody making a big deal about being a minority in my job, being able to pee standing up, and less body fat? Hallelujah! So I don’t get the identity angst either, because I figure, who cares? We’re all just people. But then again, I am completely in agreement with—if you don’t like something about yourself, change it. No matter what it is, nobody else going to do it for you, and it’s your life. So I completely support other people’s choices to change themselves. Probably the things that might be incredibly important to me, would be trivial to others.

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“That not seeing it can be shown by another analogy. Often, you hear people (straight people) say things about gays with the battle over same sex marriage “why do they have to flaunt it?”, and in effect say that “I don’t flaunt my sexuality, I don’t flaunt my relationships”…and the answer is, to the person saying that, they don’t even notice it. If you have a gay couple on tv, they talk about flaunting it, yet tv is full of couples, straight couples. Straight married people wear wedding rings, they have pictures of their spouse and kids in the office, and will talk about their home life around the water cooler, but they don’t see that as ‘flaunting it’, to them it simply is normal, since of course the world for the most part is dominated by straight couples and families, and that is so ‘normal’ you don’t even notice, the way that people don’t notice so many routine things, because ‘it just is’.”

I don’t care whatsoever about people living their lives the way they like. However, I don’t understand why some people feel the need to make such a big deal about it, and make it the centerpiece of their life. For example, there is a couple very dear to me that is always talking about gay this, gay that. They constantly have to bring up hanging out with their gay friends, going to a gay meetup, etc. I never talk about hanging out with my heterosexual friends, or my gay friends. Where I live, people intermingle, coexist, and nobody cares if you are gay or not. Why does it have to be such a huge deal, a centerpiece of their lives? Who cares who they love, and what their sexuality is? This isn’t the 1950’s anymore, it’s not a big deal, and nobody cares. But I don’t have the heart to tell them that, as I’m sure it would offend them.

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I remember following your thread Donna, when you transitioned physically (surgery) . I t was a hard time for you, we all worried about you physically as the going was pretty roughl
At that time I went through another episode of breast cancer, I was very ill and lost a lot of weight, was bald, and flat. I was very conscious of how I looked and tried to dress more “feminine” I thought 'why does this bother me so much?" My daughter answered with “you just want to be who you are” people just want to feel free to be who they are. I work in an environment that is very confining and puts you in a box and it really stinks and causes me a great deal of angst, I think this is nothing compared mind you, but it gives me a glimpse into how this might feel. Time and time again we see people who want to express who they are and society doesn’t approve, I cannot imagine what BJ felt being an Olympic Hero in the time he was living, in the public eye. I cannot imagine doing that.

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Bus driver, I work with gay people so we talk about things sometimes. I don’t ask questions about your thoughts so I don’t know. But maybe you could ask your gay friends to get a viewpoint on why they talk this way. I don’t think people want to be homogenous, I think people want to stand out, be proud and identify with their own community and be accepted for this… People need to connect, with people of similar viewpoints etc… human nature. people need to find their “tribe”

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I understand the desire to be part of a community, but it seems an obsession. Why mention that you are going to visit your gay friends, then soon to visit your heterosexual friends? Why make that distinction? I don’t feel that I can ask them, if there is even the slightest chance I might offend them, as I love them very much. So I just don’t say anything. I wonder sometimes, if they are saying things in front of us, to make a point about it. And maybe they wouldn’t, if we weren’t there.

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It isn’t the 1950s anymore but anyone who is a 40 or 50 something adult spent most of their lives living in a culture where it wasn’t acceptable and wasn’t OK. I would imagine that might shift as a generation of kids in WA state comes of age where they only know a system of acceptance and marriage equality, but this openness is very very new and certainly still not entrenched amongst the older set both gay and straight and “whatever”.

I am just thankful that we got marriage equality the year out D reached the age of majority and came out. Things will be different for her generation as she won’t have to wait for the larger society to decide that she should have equal rights.

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I think there is also a reflex to test the waters and send a code message. Say at work I don’t run around saying that our daughter is gay just to spread the news. However it was a subtle coming out to say, “D is bringing her GF home for spring break.” To some people maybe that seems “in your face” or “broadcasting” unnecessarily, but there is a delicate balance the first time you say things like that to random people who you know.

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Around here, saintfan, I don’t think people would blink an eye or even notice. Definitely not “in your face”.

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I think people want to talk about their lives. everything we do and are is our identity. As stated before I was completely shocked at how I felt. made me examine my thoughts. However as a society we haven’t gotten there yet. I overheard someone at work state how disgusted they were by BJ and how far Diane Sawyer had come down in the journalism world. If you knew the dynamics of my workplace you would know why I didn’t say anything, but I was so disappointed, its just not what I wish was put out in the world. Although it gives me insight . When I talk about the breast cancer people are like “isnt she over that yet” I say it because it still has an impact on my life, why I make certain decisions and partly makes up who I am right now. Not trying to hijack the thread just trying to empathize from what I have learned.
BD I will ask my friends at work then. they are pretty open.
BTW I was so glad to see Diane Sawyer as he just lost her husband mike Nichols and I do like her, The interview was done before the accident that BJ had.

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I do that myself sometimes. 98% of the people I meet, and/or interact with on a regular basis, have (presumably) no knowledge of my history. Once in a while, if I like someone enough to want to be friends with them or to go beyond a superficial acquaintance, I’ll make a vague reference to LGBT issues in general or trans people in particular. If I get a positive reaction, I might go further. If not, I don’t (and certainly don’t pursue the acquaintanceship). By the way, it’s not that I think it’s deceitful or dishonest for trans people to keep their histories to themselves – it’s really nobody’s business, except in very limited circumstances – it’s simply that I would find it very uncomfortable at my age to be friends with someone and have to keep such a large portion of my past life off limits, or to rewrite it retroactively. However, I can’t even imagine being in Jenner’s situation after transition, in which just about every single person they ever meet will know that they’re a woman with a trans history.

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Just because we live in a place where people are more liberal and accepting on the whole it doesn’t mean that everyone is. When people ask if our D has a boyfriend usually I say, “she has a long term girlfriend” but sometimes I just say, “no.” If you are 50 and for the first 40 years of your life you couldn’t expect fairly certain acceptance, your psyche, in part, might still be in that place where you have to explain or be wary. Also, not everyone who lives her now is from here. People go away on cruises and tours as well where it makes perfect sense to want it to be “LGBT friendly” so they can just focus on being on vacation and not have people think that they were “rubbing their noses in it” or whatever.

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I suppose you’re right, saintfan. I guess I’m so used to living around here (and perhaps it’s purely the people I tend to know) who really don’t care one way or another what your sexuality is. Most people I know, it’s just one aspect of their life, but not the center of it.

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I think the world will get there but slowly, no in my lifetime I don’t think, but it has changed dramatically. we would never have had kotex or Cialis commercials on tv. But as with many things change takes longer than we think it should.