The Darwin Method of Childrearing

Parents Forum
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<p>I think sometimes we lump these two together, but they are really quite different. "Pushing” implies forcing a kid to do something that you want them to do. “Supporting” on the other hand is providing kids with the tools they need to accomplish their goals, whatever they may be.</p>

<p>My kids always used to joke at report card time about how well they did despite having parents who “don’t care about grades.” They would then tell stories about friends who were afraid to show their parents a B+. My oldest used to say, “Parents of honors kids are crazy.”</p>

<p>I’m glad they didn’t feel pressured about grades, but we provided them with a tremendous amount of support - from reading to them every night as young children, to making sure they had a hot breakfast every morning, to making sure they had school supplies and computers, to being actively involved in the schools and advocating for their educational needs. We spent a lot of time and energy supporting our kids in their pursuits.</p>

<p>For us a good college education is a final gift we’d like to give our kids before they enter adulthood. We want to see them in places where they can have an enriching social and educational experience. When I asked my second S how he would feel if he didn’t get into his first choice he said, “Being a success has to do more with who you are. A good school can help, but ultimately it’s all up to the student. I can be a success anywhere.”</p>

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<p>That was really well said, cookiemom. We tried to bring up our kids in a similar way.</p>

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<p>Totally agree, Cookiemom. “Enriching social and educational experience…,” that, too, is our gift/legacy to our children.</p>

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<p>Lots of great posts!</p>

<p>Disclaimer: As the mom of two Ss, I do not lay any claim on Xiggi (except to help me with French accents :))</p>

<p>SoozieVT wrote what I wanted to say. As the mom of a kid whose idea of summer fun is math from 9am to 9pm six days a week, I’ve felt that I’ve been pulled along rather than pushing. His sibling has a totally different personality and set of interests and we just dealt with him totally differently. You just have to love the kid you have.</p>

<p>Cookiemom: I agree with you entirely. I also see on CC so many kids who would benefit from more parental support (They may not get it because the parents are unfamiliar with the process and indeed have limited English); they are probably as numerous as the students who are under pressure, whether from their parents or themselves. </p>

<p>Slugbug: LOL. Nerdy kids are not necessarily better able to find their shoes and a #2 pencil in time, :)</p>

<p>Slugbug: LOL.</p>

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<p>Sunya Luthar has surveyed my (affluent, suburban) class every year since we were in the 6th grade.</p>

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<p>I did not mean to attack anyone in my OP - I was simply pulling examples from the first page of threads that I saw, and trying to summarize what I found in each opening post. The point was that each topic was an example of someone or their kid being caught up in the “rat race” – someone concerned or upset because a high test score was not high enough, academic schedules too demanding, competition over grades & class rank, etc. </p>

<p>I also do not see it as a matter of parental “pushing” … sometimes the pressure comes from the parents, sometimes the problem may lie with the parent failing to attempt to pull back – not pull the kid back in terms of denying support, but rather in terms of setting some limits to add peace, harmony and sanity in the kid’s world. I mean, sometimes kids need parents telling them that they are trying too hard to reach a goal that is not all that important – cramming to improve an already high SAT score is a prime example. I mean - parenting is a balancing act, and as I see it a large part of the balance is to try to guide kids toward a lifestyle that will maximize their emotional health and sense of well-being, as well as toward values like sustaining family relationships and friendships (the values emphasized in the article I posted ) – or towards simply enjoying life, having fun, and exploring creative and athletic endeavors in a noncompetitive setting - in other words, “playing”. </p>

<p>It also wasn’t intended as a me vs. them post – I mean, I’m pretty laid back as far as parenting goes, but I’m not trying to set myself up as an example. I have one very laid-back, couch potato type kid and another high-energy, join-everything kind of kid. Each kid has a their own set of needs – sometimes a kid needs a parental push in the right direction, and sometimes a kid needs a parent to set limits - and by limits I don’t mean cutting back free time to make more time for study, but the other way around – if school academics or activities are starting to monopolize the kid’s life and causing stress for the family, it’s time to reevaluate. </p>

<p>Kids are influenced by their peers and their high school environment, so high achievers do end up measuring their self-worth by their grades, test scores, and the “status” attached to their classes (AP- high status). Parents who are caught up in celebrating their kid’s achievements can also be part of the pressure, even though they don’t think they are pushing. </p>

<p>So here is my next question, for parents to ask themselves: when was the last time you simply spent a day relaxing, goofing off and having fun with your kid? If the answer is “can’t remember” - “seems like years” - or “we can’t stand being around each other”… then you or your kid might fit into the category of “overstressed.”</p>

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<p>“…when was the last time you simply spent a day relaxing, goofing off and having fun with your kid?”</p>

<p>We actually do a lot of this, although it might also go into the category of stressful activities. We do a lot (like almost every weekend) of all kinds of outdoor things: hiking, snowshoeing, cross-country skiing, and such. For Thanksgiving, we went to Florida to do some cavern diving in one of the beautiful springs (as well as see family for Thanksgiving dinner). For New Year’s my wife and I took him to explore some of the West Virginia caves we used to spend a lot of time in. We had a great, fun time. Last year, he and his Mom went ice climbing. He liked that a lot and wants to do it again this winter. Day after tomorrow, we’ll be downhill skiing. </p>

<p>We actually spend a LOT of time together as a family, although I don’t know if you would call it a “relaxing” time.</p>

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<p>Calmom:</p>

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<p>I wish it were that simple. We have not had a family vacation in at least two years. Why? Because S loves to go a math camp that ends in mid-August. There’s no time for a real vacation before school starts again. My S’s idea of fun is math and more math. We can hardly take weekend jaunts together because of his math/science programs/homework. And you know what? one reason my S likes his math programs is that in those programs, he is a totally ordinary kid, with no special status, because everyone else is in the same situation. When I went to pick up my S at the end of those 6 weeks of unrelenting problem sets, there were at least 5 kids crying that it had ended. A number of us recognized our kids in the Atlantic Monthly article about Nerd Camp (aka CTY).
A lot of us probably feel like SoozieVT, except for the driving.</p>

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<p>Marite has beautifully described our situation as well. We have one kid internally driven, one kid not. Raising them, we tried to find their very different interests and encourage them. In one case, that meant tons of extra academics and extra curriculars. In the other case, that meant trying to find room in the kid’s social life to squeeze ourselves in once and a while, and keeping up the stock of art supplies. </p>

<p>They were different from day one: the kid who liked to spend hours sitting in a swing, singing, while being pushed; the kid who pushed himself to roll across the floor and try out a knob on the fire place before he could even crawl. While it’s true that society rewards one more than the other, and the driven one may ultimately get more accolades and earn more money, I have always contended the less driven kid will be happier. It’s not comfortable always needing to be “the best” though great achievements may come from it. Someone with that need may never be content; while someone with the capacity to be content with less may very well like himself or herself a lot more. As a parent, I can’t take credit or blame – they pretty much came out of the box that way.</p>

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<p>"So here is my next question, for parents to ask themselves: when was the last time you simply spent a day relaxing, goofing off and having fun with your kid? If the answer is “can’t remember” - “seems like years” - or “we can’t stand being around each other”… then you or your kid might fit into the category of “overstressed.”</p>

<p>Not to sidetrack too far from the point, but there have been times in the last four years when I would have answered “can’t remember” - “seems like years” or “we can’t stand each other” if only because our S was pushing away from us and was MUCH more interested in developing his peer relationships and/or slacking off on his responsbilities (which we couldn’t tolerate too well). His sophomore year, in particular, is one that I don’t care to remember… lots of arguing, some disrespect, some breaking of rules and that one glorious day when he informed us he simply wasn’t going to go to college. Didn’t have a plan, just didn’t want to do school anymore after 12th grade. The idea of spending 10 minutes with the kid, much less a day, was incomprehensible at times. He was not fun or relaxing. And he didn’t want to spend time with me, who I’m sure he viewed as an uptight Peruvian hag. I hated what felt like a complete disconnect between us. I remember pulling out his baby photo album one afternoon to try to recall the joy and love that I had once felt about him and to remember he was still the same person even if he was acting like a major a**.</p>

<p>Junior year, he pulled himself completely together and blew H and I away with his accomplishments and studies. We couldn’t spend a whole lot of time with him because he was on fire every day of the week from dawn until midnight, and we just felt we needed to step out of the way and let him do his thing. </p>

<p>But… this year, he’s got a bit more time, and he’s a blast. Laid back, confident, able to switch between friends and parents easily, interested and interesting, and … he takes advice! We hung out a lot over the winter break, gorging on popcorn, MnMs and the 3rd season DVD of West Wing, going to dinner, a play, etc… His dad can’t get enough of going out to lunch or dinner with him. He wrote me a note Christmas morning thanking me for all the help I’ve given him with his college search and said “I wouldn’t be where I am today without you.”</p>

<p>I guess my point is that if there are parents out there who can’t answer calmom’s latest question in a very affirming way, it might not be because they are overstressed or overparenting (really, whatever that is), etc… The parent/child relationship is a complicated one and it has its highs and lows. You can’t accurately evaluate it until the kid is grown.</p>

<p>By the way, my mom always told me that whatever the child’s personality is at 10, that’s what they come back to after they’re done being dumb and mean. :slight_smile: I didn’t believe her when my son was 15, and I seriously and honestly thought that our S had become someone I would not want to spend time with once he was grown. But now at 17, he’s very similar to that 10-year-old kid I couldn’t get enough of (well, a lot taller), and the thought of him leaving for college in 8 months is very sad. He’s a friend once again.</p>

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<p>I think one great aspect of my S’s personality is that he is not competitive–he does not have to be the best, if, by that, it means “better than others”-- nor is he a perfectionist. I’ve known kids who spent days polishing a first draft, impervious to parental pleas to take it easier and to teachers’ reminders that it was after all a first draft. So I’ve been able to tell him he needs to do the best HE can do without fear that he’ll stay up until all hours. The fact remains that, in order for him to do the best he can and to be happy, he has to be challenged and engaged.</p>

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<p>Marite – That’s great, though I suspect your son has not found himself in a lot of math situations where doing the best he could didn’t also make him one of “the best.” :slight_smile: The whole concept of best is something I’ve spent years talking to my son about – I don’t believe in it. We always sent him to schools that de-emphasized competition. He once accused us of sending him to “hippie schools.” When we talk about how he’s done or felt he’s done on something, I never ask how other people did. The standard question at the end of a school day was: did you learn anything interesting today? I didn’t mean to paint him as someone who’s only driven by competition. (He certainly never burned the midnight oil – still doesn’t as far as I know – and was the type of kid who would point out a teacher’s grading mistake that would have been in his favor, because he wanted to feel he earned his grades.) He’s driven by the need to master things and always has been.</p>

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<p>Momof2Inca:</p>

<p>Your poignant post actually brought a tear or two to my eyes. Thank you.</p>

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<p>Oh Great Inca - what a wonderful post, I want to print it out and keep it for the days that dear,dear son is making me nuts!</p>

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<p>Digmedia - by “a day relaxing, goofing off and having fun” - I do NOT mean a vacation trip - skiing, snorkeling, whatever. I mean the stress-free stuff that you do at home or around your own community - without planning. Just because everyone happens to be home and you feel like doing something fun together, whether the “fun” thing is sitting at home playing cards or doing crossword puzzles, or going biking together around town, or whatever your family likes to do together. The point I’m trying to make is simply whether there is unplanned, unscheduled time in one’s family life. </p>

<p>I’m not saying it’s wrong if you don’t have this… but it is just something that overstressed and overworked families may be missing without realizing it. If the “fun” day is stressful… then that is not what I mean.</p>

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<p>Sac:</p>

<p>I did not think your S fitted the stereotype of the competitive kid, either. I do think that if your child is driven to excel in something, it’s easier on everyone if that child is not a perfectionist. One such kid was deliberately held back by her parents who insisted on her doing a gap year because they were concerned she was pushing herself too hard (she was also the one doing 3 drafts of first drafts). So what did she do? audited four college courses and did all the work!</p>

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<p>We hang out all the time. This weeks it’s piling on the picnic table cum lounge chair to read and catch a bit of sunshine. I was beginning to feel guilty but now I find out I’m a virtuous lazy thing:). Woo hoo!</p>

<p>re: You can’t accurately evaluate it until the kid is grown.</p>

<p>Looking at siblings and friends, my new theory is that you can’t evaluate your parenting success until your grandchildren are teenagers…</p>

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<p>Maybe where Digmedia lives in Colorado, people relax, goof off, and have fun around by skiing, hiking, etc. They don’t need to go on vacation to do those things, they live where people from other places go for vacation. As I understand it, that’s why many people move to places like Colorado.</p>

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<p>You might be right MotherOfTwo – but it was Digmedia who said that it was NOT relaxing. My point isn’t to start another competition over who has the best family-together-activity time.</p>

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<p>Cookiemom, before I even got to your post, I was thinking along the lines of what you wrote and then, boom, there was a very articulate post stating exactly what I was thinking about. Basically…that parents can be very “involved” in their kids lives without pushing them. So, when I talked about parents not pushing, I did not mean they (we) are laid back and watch it all happen. I think we are very involved and provide resources, DRIVING (LOL, had to get that in), support, and all sorts of ways we are connected to what they are doing. I think someone mentioned a parent going to school to check on the transcript or profile or something like that and I thought, yep, I did that. But it was not about making my kid do anything but just being involved as a resource and facilitator of their college application process. But they DROVE the process. That is just one example. </p>

<p>I really have kids who press us to let them do the activities. Sometimes my own mother will say, how come you are making them do all these things and I do a double take as if I would make them do it? I mean it would be a LOT easier for me if they were not so busy but they are dying to do these activities. We don’t make a kid stay up late and write a good paper but she wants to. It just is how they are and we just go with what we’ve got here. Like Marite says, sometimes a kid is just so into what they are doing, they are pushing us, more than us pushing them. </p>

<p>Calmom asked about the last time you did stuff with your kids just hanging around or relaxing kinds of things. Admittedly our kids lives are busy and lots of it is scheduled. However, we are spending lots of time together and I would not call it all stressful. It is enjoyable sharing in their activities. If we are watching a game, recital, concert, race, or whatever, it is kind of family time of one sort. I guess let’s take tomorrow night…younger child created her own musical, and is directing it and every other aspect to do with it…and it opens tomorrow night…my husband is playing guitar in the band that accompanies the musical, I am selling the tickets and videotaping it, big sister came home from her college ski training camp to see the show and photograph it, grandparents are coming to see it, etc. Everyone is together but over an activity. No it is not just hanging out together but it is doing their interests together, which is not what you were talking about but it is still a kind of family interaction. There is not tons of down time as a family but yet there is a lot of time spent with the kids. We also take a family vacation every year. Sometimes there are unexpected unscheduled moments like a snow day from school or like older D home from college for a week with no homework or scheduled stuff (so we could go to the movies together, stuff like that). Even tonight, that happened a little bit because we were all home for more time than usual because everything after school was cancelled due to snow and it was the dress rehearsal for my daughter’s show (big problem) which she was not allowed to hold and my hubby had taken off from work to play music for it, my older daughter was here earlier than planned (due to a ski accident) and was going to do the photo shoot of the show for her, and so they all had to come home (the school is allowing her to hold the rehearsal during the school day and miss classes and she was able to get the hired pianist to shuffle his schedule and travel here tomorrow morning for it) and then since my D is not used to so many hours available at home (normally her ECs go into the night), she had her homework done, all her organizational work for her show, her piano and guitar practicing done, her audition prep done for colleges, that she actually had some free time and I saw both girls sit down together at the piano playing duets and having fun cause they actually had some free time late tonight. They happen to be kids who crave the busy lifestyles they lead but once in a while it is cool when there is unscheduled time for little things like that. Nonetheless, I still think you can have quality parent/family time with your kids that might be centered on their activities, even if scheduled stuff. I mean we are together a LOT but we are doing things, not necessarily at home. I think it still can be fun to be standing on the side of the race course (though freezing) and be there to cheer your kid on across the finish line and have lunch with the team in the lodge and stuff like that. Hectic maybe, but not necessarily stressful. I mean the kids, at least, are having a blast, and frankly now that one is in college, I miss a lot of this stuff we got to do with her. When I heard her play piano tonight, I miss seeing her perform ! </p>

<p>PS to Marite, the crying scene you saw at the end of math camp is what I go through every summer with my child at the end of theater camp…major cryfest, can’t pull her away…I almost get teary eyed watching these bonded kids have to say goodbye to each other myself! By the way, my D just returned from seeing about a dozen of these summer friends in Florida over the break…she got her little “fix”.</p>