The Lost Boys

TropicalTriceps · May 21, 2005, 2:54am

Good evening,

I first typed up responses to each of you, but realized that they all culminated to the same idea. Let me first provide some background info. As a child, I was extremely shy. Until the 4th grade, I only had female friends, and would spend my free time building legos, drawing, reading, and collecting bugs. I had few acquaintainces but was involved in a variety of daycares and summer camps. From my early experiences, I was never too attached to other people. Advance forward into middle school - I made some excellent friends (both male and female) whom I still cherish to this date, but the majority of my friends were absolute social ****ups. I got into plenty of fights and made enemies all around, even among females. Things got so bad that my parents’ primary incentive for moving me to a private school was due to social spheres and not education. Since then, its been a mere 3 years and I’ve been able to build on all my failings, both physically and mentally. I used to be timid, insecure, unapproachable, and socially inept. Keeping a soft heart, I’ve since transformed into a more confident, assertive, and likeable individual. I could not have made it without all the bullies, miscreants, teasers, and other such people whom parents despise.

If you keep a child holed up, he or she will never live. Similar to how a person who never travels will never truly experience alternate lifestyles and cultures, a homeschooled child will never experience the volatile and unpredictable environment of high school life. It parallels the workplace. You need to learn how to judge the people around you and exercise discretion in acquaintances. You NEED to be humbled, to be humiliated, to be hurt. A girl who is protected by her family will be loved by men, but she will inevitably seeks thrills, especially in romantic partners. A boy who is protected will be overly-vulnerable to the cruelties of society.

Parents, please, let your children live. Let them date, drive, drink, explore. If they fall, have them fall early on in their lives so that they may learn sooner. Character and competence are the result of early fumblings. Kids have an innate love of exploration - fuel it and maximize the mentality before it dies with age. Nothing has helped my parents and I connect more than discussion on such topics. When we begin to understand your concerns, and you begin to understand our motivations, the parent-child chemistry is one step closer to being complete.

sempitern555 · May 21, 2005, 3:16am

“I think boys are in real trouble. And, it probably doesn’t help that pretty much the sole focus of educators has been helping girls catch up in science and math, with no attention to how boys are doing in, say, English and history.”

as a male teen, let me relate my own personal experiences

It is true, my 9th grade was NOTHING compared to my senior year. I had a rough time during that year. But, I noticed an immediate improvement in 10th grade and then 11th and 12th

my gpa went from 3.5 freshman to 3.95 sophomore to 4.4 junior to 4.90 senior(I got a B in Stanfords multivariable integral calculus course, I’m still kicking myself over that)

I think the biggest problem is that boys have too many distractions whereas girls can more easily just sit and study. Also boys are given too many excuses, boys will be boys etc etc.

While I did play games, the most mind-numbing of them… like GTA III Counterstrike, Vice City, Halo. I limited my playing to once every 2 months. I havent played such a game all year so far :). Instead I matured to more interesting games like Simcity 4. My personal favorite. I always end up trying to figure out what party the city would go for based on population density and wealth amongst other factors. :D

For me, my academic success didnt come from school or parent pressure it came from within. Last year I did 6 ap courses, 5 self study ap courses, football, and orchestra as well as boy scouts and some other government related ec’s. I wanted to see if I could do it. Sure, I had only 4 hours of sleep per night. But, I knew how far I could go.

This year I decided to cut back a little and focus on things which were more important, ie, growing relationships. Don’t get me wrong, I did 3 ap courses and 7 college classes. But, it was more interesting because I was able to do things for fun.

So, finally, I think for boys it has to be that self-drive.
My parents never “pressured” me(of course they encouraged that I take rigorous classes) as much as I pressued myself.
My secret to success, time management and keeping your eye on the goal and not letting day to day things stress you out.

and heck, sometimes after a finals period you just may want to play Halo

jamimom · May 21, 2005, 4:56pm

Homeschooled kids are not always shut away, Eric. As I stated before many of them are more well socialized than kids going to schools. In fact, for some kids who are abused socially at the public school, it may not be a bad idea to homeschool and be selective about where they socialize. The same with kids who have cannot deal with peer pressure. Sometimes it takes kids a little longer, or way longer to mature and be able to balance things better. Also certain social standards no longer exist once you get a little older. The nerd from highschool could easily be the ones with the babes and the cool cars in adulthood, and the cool guy could be the one washing said car. There is not necessarily a direct relationship. I know one family who finally took their son out of highschool which had become a traumatic experience for him socially, homeschooled him–he ended up in college a year earlier than he would have had he stayed in school, and he did fine under the new social arena of college. This happens often. But the homeschool experience is so much more individual that you really can’t make generalities about it. Each family homeschools differently with different rules, opportunities social settings. We are not talking about shutting the kid up in a closet for those years.

crash · May 21, 2005, 9:35pm

Sempitern555m (whatever does this stand for??!!)

Anyway, I am glad that both you and Eric have joined this discussion (especially since it is about your gender and age cohort…)

My questions to you: What motivated you to limit your visoe game playing? What kotivated you to take 10th grade more seriously than ninth, and eleventh more seriously than tenth? You say the “desire for academic success” came from within? What triggered it? Did you just wake up suddenly one moirning and stretch, yawn, and say “I think I beterr get a better handle on things…” or what?

This is what I am trying to understand? What is it that snaps the switch on for boys? Visiting college campuses apparently did it to my 8th grade S because in 9th grade he started really buckling down on his own…

Why did you change?

timely · May 22, 2005, 1:01am

Maybe since homeschooling is uncommon in the Bay Area, the homeschoolers there are more isolated than average. My 15 y/o son will be surprised to learn that he is lacking human interaction. He’s kind of a typical homeschooler around our neck of the woods…literature club, Toastmasters club, drama club, church youth group, homeschool math class, and cycling (completed a 2-day 180 mile ride with 10,000 other riders…none of whom were friends or family). This summer he’ll be spending 6 weeks as an intern on a movie set.

Also, our kids have an excellent guidance counselor…me. I have 3 kids and you better believe I am motivated to see that they make the most of their potential. That’s why I’m on this forum. It is true that it’s been a bit of a problem on college and scholarship applications for our older son when he’s needed a GC’s recommendation. I typically contact the requestor, tell them we are homeschooling, and ask them what they’d like me to do.

Remember that most homeschooling parents attended public high schools. We know what high school is all about. Been there, done that. I don’t believe that my high school experiences helped me to grow as a person. If anything, it took me years to recover my self-esteem. Not only that, but I don’t believe I reached my academic potential, because I was too distracted by all the melodrama of my relationships with my peers.

Even the very sheltered homeschooled kids that we know tend to happy and well-adjusted. They might not wear the latest fashions or know what’s happening on reality t.v., and maybe they would be considered misfits if they were placed into a group of public schooled kids. Nevertheless, they are happy and they tend to know how to “do relationships” better than other more “normal” kids. If they are happy and can provide adequately for their families, I don’t know why it matters if they aren’t like everybody else.

TropicalTriceps · May 22, 2005, 9:54pm

Hey again,

Social gatherings are great, and positive communities are a must. I would never contest that. However actively engaged your children are, they are within environments where they connect and are respected. Connections are respect are obviously two great things - what will your child do when the inevitable time comes where he will have neither? By carefully nuturing your child you have removed all the pitfalls and barriers for them.

The one thing thats possibly more dangerous than a holier-than-thou complex is naivity. Its great to have as a kid, but your children have to grow up sooner or later, and saturating them in a completely positive environment is only going to slow down the process.

Right now, I get the feeling that many of you caring mothers have decided on homeschooling because of your own experiences in high school which you’ve regret. I can connect because at many times in my life I was worse off than a social outcast, but still, I’ve built myself back up and thoroughly appreciate the difficult journey. When I become a father, I want the best for my children. However, I feel that the worse thing I could do is to be overprotective by making sure that I myself am the greatest influence on my childrens’ lives. I truly hope that my point of view is understood. I have always strived to understand people, and I couldn’t have progressed in this mindset without exposure to people and ideas I sometimes mistrust, hate, or lack respect for. The ironic thing is that I could only hope that my wife someday will be as concerned and as caring as you mothers. I guess it has to do with the mom-dad disparity that balances out families.

jamimom · May 22, 2005, 10:11pm

There are many different highschool environments and some are just not very good for some children. If there is a serious mismatch, it is certainly possible that homeschooling is a better alternative. The homeschooling clusters I have seen are small, informal schools in many ways. The worst thing is not necessarily being overprotective. There are many dead and damaged kids who were not protected enough. That is not to say that there is no such thing as overprotection, but most folks I know are just wiser when they are a bit older and more mature. I would not let a reckless or impulsive teenager drive on his own, for instance, because that could well be his death warrent. A few extra years could make a big difference in that deficiency. I feel that boys in particular tend to be immature in many ways which accounts for many of their problems in middle and high school. Time often solves some of those issues if they don’t do things that really set them back.

songman · May 24, 2005, 12:31pm

northstarmom-- EXCELLENT POINTS-

YOU SAID :“That’s the same kind of thing that occurs in the US when research indicates that if a black sounding name is put on a resume, that “person” will get fewer calls for interviews than occurs when the same resume has a “white” sounding name at the top”

While I agree that this type of behavior possibly still goes on,what makes minorities think that it is exclusive to them? (excluding a discussion of slavery etc.which clealry was more traumatic and reprehensible so let’s fast forward to 1965 -1985) In my 30 years in the workplace I have witnessed resumes that were tossed in the can due to the college that an applicant attended or the town they lived in was not considered prestigious. (another form of discrimination that is never discussed),or their last name was Irish,Italian,Polish etc. While you may argue that this form of rascism has disappeared it is not exclusive to African American or Hispanic groups. This is the point we have missed in the USA while in pursuit of being politcally correct. In the process we have discounted the years of rascism that was heaped upon Jews,Irish, Italians,Polish,Asians,etc etc…from one nationality to the other. Those people paid a price and so did their children. Today, the grandchildren are considered to be wealthy whites and priviledged(although many are just middle class or part of thw roking poor), so therefore we must redistribute the gains from these people to others via social “entitlements”…it is basically society saying- you stay at this point on the economic ladder and don’t go any further so we can help people at the lower end climb up to you. I am all for this form equality, however the offset is that someone loses and someone gains.

Back to lost boys- maybe boys were always like the threads describe above or just maybe the offset to feminism and female empowerment is that someone wins and someone loses…or someone stays in place on the ladder so to speak…maybe that is the reason why some boys are lost? Again an anecdotal stat I know, but my son had around 36 teachers from grades 1- 12. Only four were male.(roughly 11%)

sempitern555 · May 24, 2005, 12:40pm

for me, the personal decision to apply myself stemmed from being frustrated at simply beign mediocre

irishbird · May 24, 2005, 3:43pm

this is a very interesting thread…much to think about.

For me a strange thing happened recently when my boss had to recommend 3 applicants for a scholarship from an organization. I had a list with student name & gpa and SAT and we also had the opportunity to view in a very general way what type of financial need they might have. Well I had pared down a list of @ 30 to 12 names to give my boss (it happened to be 5 F and 7 M). He knocked it down to 6 candidates (4 M & 2F) and I placed them into two groups with three having greater fin. need and the other three having med. fin. need (all 6 having fairly close academic stats). And I asked him to pick the three to recommend. He selected the 3 with greatest fin. need, who all happened to be male.

Later after sending an email with the information on the students to this company, I received a response questioning the makeup of the applicants. (In previous years, we had told them we looked at the strongest academic students to recommend.) But, included with the email was an earlier email from a co-worker which specifically said that i’m concerned about the lack of females.

When I spoke to my contact person to remind her how the students get selected, I indicated that fin. need had tipped the balance on whom to select this year, & that we hadn’t really paid any attention to gender. She tried to cloak it a bit in questioning our ‘diversity’ candidates, but I said that we don’t receive any information regarding race or ethnicity and only had names to go by; which would leave us having to guess, if race/ethnicity were going to be factors.
Basically I told her that if, in future, they wanted us to consider race, ethnicity & gender, then fine, tell us so…after all it’s their scholarship…but I found it odd that they were so concerned about lack of females. Interestingly enough I reminded them that most of the previous recipients had been female…so I didn’t feel like we really ruined things for them this year!

citygirlsmom · May 24, 2005, 3:53pm

How many of the original applicants were m/f…

irishbird · May 25, 2005, 9:58am

Well, there were more boys than girls …I hadn’t really noticed, since we were looking primarily at the acad. numbers, but there were about 18 guys to 12 girls.

speckledegg · May 28, 2005, 1:55pm

Are the boys lost, or just slower to find their way, or in need of greater support than the girls?

(High school’s science honor roll: 40 seniors, 70% males.)

sempitern555 · May 28, 2005, 4:37pm

I think the key is that we are slower to find our way. I woke up one day in my sophomore year sick and tired of being mediocre. I looked to see who in my class was getting the highest grades and then asked myself what was so different about them that they were able to accomplish that. From that point on I resolved to academically trounce the number 1 student in each class. Then in my junior year I took an all ap schedule to further challenge myself. Also, I would never make excuses for myself and I would always strive to be number 1. This change was marked. Before my junior year I was going to be headed to a CSU but afterwards I set my sights higher.

speckledegg · May 28, 2005, 6:19pm

What made you suddenly wake up one day and start achieving? What events led to this? It must have been something powerful.

sempitern555 · May 28, 2005, 7:17pm

I guess it was just boredom. I felt like I was drifting without purpose. Sure I had my group of friends and stuff I liked to do but it just didnt mean much because my heart wasn’t into the academics.

The one class that initiated this reform was my algebra 2 class. I was getting a 100%. But, I would come in each day, boot up my computer and proceed to fall asleep. Then I would wake up 5 minutes before the end of the class and bs my hw and turn it in. I did well on the tests but it was just very boring. I said to myself “Who am I kidding?”. I’m not earning that 100%, I need to actually work. I think that was the turning point. I proceed to take classes at a cc over the summer and then when the school administration didnt allow me to take more advanced math classes I took them online. This year I got a B in multivariable Integral Calculus from Stanford.

I was bored and I had to either choose whether to apply myself or to eventually drop out. I couldnt stand the regular hs classes. It was like an alcatraz of the mind. Luckily I found a few interesting teachers and a whole bunch of cc classes to help me through the rest of hs.

speckledegg · May 28, 2005, 8:20pm

I think it’s amazing that you pulled yourself out of boredom rather than getting lulled and slowly numbed. From the sound of it, you turned to academics. Had you been a strong student always? Had school been easy for you? I think that sophomore year is a turning point for many boys.

Eagle79 · May 29, 2005, 11:07am

Sorry for the long delay in digging up the information on “The New Gender Gap” that I referred to in one of my earlier posts. I thought that I had read it in Newsweek but I was mistaken, it was Business Week. Here is a link to the article (you need to register to read it but it is free):

<a href=“Bloomberg - Are you a robot?”>Bloomberg - Are you a robot?;

A quick summary is that there have been a number of programs developed to encourage girls but not boys. Here is the last couple of sentances of the article:

" A new world has opened up for girls, but unless a symmetrical effort is made to help boys find their footing, it may turn out that it’s a lonely place to be. After all, it takes more than one gender to have a gender revolution. "

Eagle79 · May 29, 2005, 11:11am

There was an online extra to this called “It’s a Bart Simpson Culture”. Here is the link:

<a href=“Businessweek - Bloomberg”>Businessweek - Bloomberg;

and another article, “Why can’t we let boys be boys”:

<a href=“Businessweek - Bloomberg”>Businessweek - Bloomberg;

Eagle79 · May 29, 2005, 11:13am

Soory for all the posts, but here is one more from CBS News after their 60 Minutes telecast on this topic:

<a href=“http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/31/60minutes/main527678.shtml[/url]”>http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/31/60minutes/main527678.shtml</a>

From the article:

“The teachers use more physical activity and competition in the all-boy classrooms and tailor the courses to boys’ tastes, with more books on topics like war and science fiction.”

PS How do you get the grey box quotes?

The Lost Boys

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