The new Caitlyn Jenner

Oldmom, I think I may have mentioned once in another thread that I’ve never actually watched Transparent. Among other things, I lived through transition once myself (albeit beginning at an age 25 years less than the show’s 70-year old main character), and have had no interest in reliving it vicariously! So all I know about it is what other people – both trans and non-trans – have written about it, as well as some still photos and short clips taken from it. And I admit that there are a couple of things I’ve read/seen that do make me uncomfortable, as well-done as most think the series is.

First, that the adult children of the transitioning trans woman in the show are all portrayed as being rather screwed-up, to a greater or lesser extent. Now, I do understand that it’s necessary for a fictional TV series to create dramatic situations. An hour a week of the trans woman talking to her therapist would hardly be dramatic! Still, as someone who transitioned as the parent of a teenage child, the show’s apparent implication (intentional or otherwise, some viewers have definitely drawn that conclusion) that the children are screwed up because their father is trans, and was distant and preoccupied when they were growing up – in part because of the father’s “secret life” – makes me very uncomfortable. Because that isn’t at all true of the relationship my son and I had or have.

Second, that the show almost goes to the other extreme from Jenner in its portrayal of how the trans woman character looks: in terms of her appearance, she is portrayed as conforming to the standard convention of the “older” transitioner (which, in some people’s eyes, covers anything from about 35 on up!): a middle-aged or elderly frump, wearing dowdy clothing – in other words, a “man in a dress.” In fact, from what I understand, the character has already transitioned full-time socially, even though she either hasn’t yet started on hormones, or started only recently. In real life, that would be extraordinarily unlikely to happen. (I was on hormones and anti-androgens for 4 1/2 years before I transitioned at work, and even though that was unusual, it’s not unheard of. For the last several years of that, I had to take a number of affirmative steps to conceal the physical changes at work, including baggy shirts and sweaters and pants a couple of sizes too large for me. It was more difficult in warm weather!) So in some respects, Tambor’s character conforms to stereotypes as much or more than Jenner’s appearance: at least Jenner defies the stereotype of the older transitioner; Tambor conforms to it. And I admit that the stereotype makes me uncomfortable, because I feel almost compelled to say: I was a so-called “older” transitioner, and I never, ever, even at the beginning, looked anything like that! Partly, of course, because I was lucky enough to be much closer, at 5’2", to average female height than most trans women, and always had a voice that was taken as female rather than male the vast majority of time. So that I didn’t have to take drastic steps to be perceived as a woman.

Those are all trans women; the one on the far right is Jenny Boylan – the only one of them I personally know. She’s a foot taller than I am!

I absolutely believe that society (social media, etc. and other women as well) does put way too much emphasis on women’s looks. I think it’s a separate issue from Caitlyn Jenner and not up to her to fix.

But let’s not kid ourselves. There is pressure on women to look a certain way, wear make up, shave their legs, etc. Also, the number one thing women usually get complimented on is their looks. I think all of this is a huge problem.

Also a problem is women asking other women if they don’t wear make up because no one showed them how. No, I just prefer to have my face as it is. Thanks.

Even on cc, I have seen threads commenting that women in the bridal party should wear make up for the photos, not to look “washed out”, which as someone pointed out is absurd, since men don’t seem to require makeup to look normal in photos.

“But let’s not kid ourselves. There is pressure on women to look a certain way, wear make up, shave their legs, etc. Also, the number one thing women usually get complimented on is their looks. I think all of this is a huge problem.”

I like being both smart and pretty. It’s a great combination.

I’m not even going to try to get involved in this conversation overall, but I am appalled at the ad hominem brush-offs on Cardinal Fang, with the over-riding assumptions that “really? you don’t want to be pretty? Is it just because no one showed you how? I’m just asking, really! (poor dear.)”

There is a deeply conservative undertone to what it means to be a woman running through this conversation, which is dismayingly ironic considering the progressive topic it’s ostensibly about.

No problem at all if you want to look plain and not enhance your features at all. Why buy anything pretty for your home, either? We’ve had this debate before on CC. Those who think anyone who uses so much as a dab of blush is a superficial diva are just as unenlightened as those who believe it is fun and attractive to enhance your natural features with color and brightness are accused of being.

Oh, please. No one has ever said it’s wrong or unenlightened to use make up–though a few have questioned the premise that using =attractive, and alternately, not using = not attractive. Those who use make-up, dye hair, etc. are not a beleaguered minority, lol.

True! Have seen this, done this, argued this! A woman is an individual with her own desires to show or present herself. We are ALL individuals.

Who gives a crying meow if a woman wears makeup or not ( I do wear) , dyes her hair or goes grey ,( I dye but considering going grey) or does any other cosmetic thing. We all want to look good.

I actually pay more attention to my looks now, as an older woman, than I ever did. Maybe that is normal, I don’t know.

Do people think that Caitlyn Jenner would be getting the same degree of criticism for allegedly promoting the superficial aspects of femininity if she were 35 instead of 65? There seems to be a feeling among some people that at 65, she should be “over” such things, and the fact that she isn’t is somehow an implicit criticism of non-trans women in their 60s who are, in fact, “over” it (or never bothered with it at all). I’m not sure that people would be made so uncomfortable by her choices if she were 30 years younger. In any event, as I and others have said before, she never had a chance to experience any of it when she was young, so one can hardly expect her to be “over it” now, at 65. It’s completely unfair to take her expression of her gender now – the very first time she’s appeared in public as a woman – as some sort of implied criticism of non-trans women her age, or as designed to make them feel “less than.”

“No problem at all if you want to look plain and not enhance your features at all.”

I find it sad that somehow not enhancing features = plain. What’s wrong with being natural? Are all men plain too? I happen to like not wearing make up and how I look natural! This pressure on women to wear make up is exactly the problem.

Men have other issues. We have discussed that. The recent article on how tight suits and “mankle” pants equal “lost masculinity” is a good example. Lol.

Seriously, if you feel so oppressed, move to the “wrong” coast (west)! In my almost three decades of living here, I have not heard anything that could be interpreted as “pressure.” I like having options. One day, I choose to wear makeup. Most of the time, I don’t. I can wear Versace and heels or a Target tee and jeans. No one bats an eyelash.

I would be surprised if Caitlin wasn’t pulling out all the stops to take advantage of the opportunity to make up for lost time. Like that ever really is the same.

Men do feel pressure on appearance. They are people, same as women. Size matters, height matters, attractiveness matters, AGE matters, the kicker is, they may not look like they need any help. ( when I was a hairstylist in Bellevue, I had lots of male clients, because I was expert in filling out the thin spots, and even tinting their beards. They actually were the * best* clients. I love women, but the most nit picky, fastidious man, does not hold a candle to a woman who wants to look like the photo in the magazine.)
Hair that looks like it’s been tinted, could be worse than looking older than everyone else.

I understand the comment about not wearing any cosmetics, but unless you are more gorgeous than anyone I’ve seen, ever, there are going to be days when you need it.
Being clean and looking nice is a sign of respect for yourself, and those you meet.
You don’t need to spend a lot of money to be well dressed and you don’t need much makeup for your face to be as pretty as your clothes

444

The idea there is some universally accepted standard of beauty is what always surprises me on these threads.

Comparing to home decor is interesting to me. Some of my friends are strict modernists and consider anything else tacky. Other friends have antique homes furnished with period pieces and detest modern as too sterile. They find it incompatible with domestic architecture. Some in each group considers the other group lacking in creativity and innate taste. Is one group right and the other wrong?

And then, of course, there are the friends that consider any concern with domestic arrangements too bourgeoisie to spend time on. They can’t believe intellectuals care about such things.

"Oh, please. No one has ever said it’s wrong or unenlightened to use make up–though a few have questioned the premise that using =attractive, and alternately, not using = not attractive. "

I thought I said I felt attractive while I was running around town yesterday afternoon without a shred of makeup since I’d just showered after a 5k. Was there someone who suggested I shouldn’t have felt attractive? I missed that post.

“find it sad that somehow not enhancing features = plain. What’s wrong with being natural? Are all men plain too? I happen to like not wearing make up and how I look natural! This pressure on women to wear make up is exactly the problem.”

Do you roll out of bed and go to work, or do you comb your hair and look in a mirror when doing so? If you wear glasses do you let the eye doctor pick the frames or do you select the ones that you think look best on you with your hair color, eye color and face shape? What’s the difference?

Donna 448 - great point. Maybe this is really ageism, that Caitlyn should be content to wear Chico’s instead of a pretty piece of lingerie.

“Comparing to home decor is interesting to me. Some of my friends are strict modernists and consider anything else tacky. Other friends have antique homes furnished with period pieces and detest modern as too sterile.”

I think the point is that if we were all furnishing our homes, we would all pick paint colors, sofas, chairs, etc. based on what we consider attractive within the constraints of our budget. No one walks into a paint store and says give me a gallon of whatever color, I need to paint the living room - they pick a color presumably to make the room attractive, coordinate with furniture, etc. No one walks into a furniture store, picks out a sofa, and is indifferent between styles and fabrics - bright florals or muted plaids or geometrics or whatever. It’s not about WHAT one finds pleasing - it’s the fact that we individually find certain looks pleasing and choose those to create an environment we enjoy. But then apply that to oneself and all of a sudden it’s so superficial diva.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/opinion/sunday/what-makes-a-woman.html?rref=opinion&module=Ribbon&version=context&region=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Opinion&pgtype=article

I thought you all would find this piece interesting. Though I do want to correct an inaccuracy. The NYT did indeed report that Wellesley, an all-women’s college, was facing complaints about the use of she and sisterhood and how to deal with women who transitioned to men during their time there. That is all true, but the article implies the matter is unsettled. The college has firmly come down that it is a women’s college, they will use she and sisterhood and if you don’t like it, don’t apply, and they will accept applications from trans women, they will grandfather in trans men who are there but if such trans men can’t live with the concept of sisterhood, they should look elsewhere.

I’m troubled by some of the comments reducing women to our physical bodies - “I get periods. I’ve given birth, I’ve breastfed, that’s what makes me a woman.” Really? So infertile women or women like a friend of mine who had a medically indicated hysterectomy in her early twenties are no longer women? I didn’t breastfeed -am I less of a woman? GMAFB.

I think maybe we’re all confused, haha. Some want to call out “So What” or “Right On” about women who choose to “go natural” or call it a fine, acceptable choice. A personal preference. Logically, we should then be able to say the same for a woman who wants to get dolled up for a photo shoot. That would be the “allowing women choices” that we all want, that was hard fought for. (And is still not perfect.)

Doesn’t it strike anyone that women biting into other women is a step backwards? A couple of generations or more of hard work to prove women are able…only to find ourselves back at square one, arguing about who wears make-up? It’s ditzy. The freedoms you want for yourselves should be recognized and extended to others. Get on with our own lives. Do some good. Measure others by what really matters.

Or is this really about being uncomfortable with the reality that we have transgender people around us? Some need to press them into a mold? Gawd, that happens too much already, for women.

Just think about it. Be aware of your own attitudes. Be part of the solution.

@Pizzagirl #456: That’s a perfect analogy. We accept what other people do in their houses for decoration. Why can’t we do the same with how people decorate their face and body?