The new Caitlyn Jenner

“And that was one point CNN made, that setting up Caitlyn’s shoot as some ideal of beauty or femininity, (intentional or not,) ignored others who may not choose the style.”

I saw her shoot as her new sense of her own beauty / femininity (that presumably she fought long and hard for, and was triumphant in a way that it wouldn’t be for born-female-me). I didn’t see it presented as some sort of object lesson in what I, a born female, need to or should strive for.

Let’s suppose, instead, that the cover had shown Caitlyn in a casual, everyday outfit, jeans and a sweater, flats, minimal makeup. Does that “ignore” or “exclude” others who don’t choose that style? At one point, everyone has to stop acting as though everyone else’s personal choices “include” or “exclude” them. As I think I said upthread, when I wear a red dress I am not excluding people who wear blue dresses. When I wear my hair in a ponytail, I am not excluding those who wear their hair down. At one point – enough already with needing every single personal choice called out as ok – it smacks of insecurity.

“Now for a makeup question: For those who use some sort of a combination makeup and sunscreen, do you put the same stuff on the top of your ears, your neck, and your shoulders? If not, where is the line between the makeup on your face and the sunscreen on your ears?”

For day, I typically use the RoC daytime moisturizer that has SPF 30 built in - I put in on my face and neck. It is the top row of the pictures shown here … https://www.rocskincare.com/products?field_product_category_tid=17

Sometimes, if I want a little more polish, I put on the Laura Mercier tinted moisturizer that has SPF 20 built in, but it likely doesn’t provide the same sunscreen overage because I’m not putting it on as thoroughly as I am the RoC. It’s the left one of the 3 shown here …
http://www.lauramercier.com/makeup/flawless-face/tinted-moisturizer/?cm_mmc=Google--search--ongoing-_-laura%20mercier&gclid=CLvajoSMg8YCFQqIaQod3UkAMQ

However, that’s for a typical day when I’m mostly indoors and my sun exposure is happenstance. If I were to have concentrated sun exposure – such as, I’m in a tank top and shorts and taking a 2 hour bike ride in the sunshine - I would put Caudalie sunscreen with SPF 50 on my face (including ears) and I would use a different sunscreen, typically Neutrogena spray form, on the rest of my exposed body. I also use a spray product that protects against sun damage on hair, though most of it is hidden under the helmet anyway.

I have a sun care client and learned a lot about sun damage and the R&D folks there helped me choose ones that are appropriate for my skin. I have fairly light skin and freckles and a history of skin cancer in my family so I’m reasonably vigilant with sunscreen.

“I also use a spray product that protects against sun damage on hair, though most of it is hidden under the helmet anyway.”

I’ve never heard of this before. Do you have any brand you’d recommend?

If I am boating or doing something active outside I would wear regular sunscreen on my face, neck, shoulders etc. The BB cream gives me the sheer tinted coverage and moisture that I want and the SPF is an added benefit for just going about my regular work day where I am in the sun only a little here and there. If I am doing an outdoor activity where I expect to get more than incidental sun I would use something more. In that case I am not interested in the evenness of my skin tone so don’t worry about foundation or a foundation facsimile.

I was just not using any kind of sun protection before unless I was doing a designated outdoor activity. Having it build in to an all in one product means that I put it on every day without thinking about it. As was noted above - the BB and CC creams are sheer enough that they just blend and there is no line where they end. It is really not like “putting on your face” where you used to see a line at people’s jaw. There is none of that.

Undeuxtrois - the one I have is by Rene Furturer - but this is a brand I never had heard of, it was recommended to me by my client’s R&D person. Sun care for hair is a growing “thing” in the category. http://www.renefurtererusa.com/products/hair-type-1/sun-care As I said, I would only use it for biking or if I were to be spending a lot of time in the sun. Not on an everyday basis.

I haven’t had good luck with the BB and CC creams, but to each her own!

Agree, PG. She’s just one example. She can like what she likes. I advocated for that. But we can also look at the impact her presentation on a mag cover may have on others in the same position. The question was legit. And it’s just a question, not meant to solve world problems.

Had she come on with no makeup, no photoshopping, etc, I know people would still complain. When your red dress choice is on the CC magazine cover, yes, some may feel, dang, I can’t achieve that. And most of us will get over it, pronto.

No one says you are excluding others. You are not a celebrity, as far as we know. Your choices are for you, your friends and family and co-workers/clients. Caitlyn’s may be seen as personal, too. But the mag cover may lead others to feel her appearance is being held up as an ideal (regardless of whether you or I succumb.)

And that’s the convo that’s harder to achieve here, without digging into studies, surveys, academic commentary, etc.

She looks great.

And, anyone’s defensiveness can cause others to wonder. That’s how it is, when we don’t know each other beyond occasional words on a forum.

I appreciate all the suggestions. I didn’t mean to convey the impression that I don’t know how to put on makeup at all; it’s just that I’ve never figured out what to do in terms of eye makeup, beyond mascara. And I’ll admit that the reason I’ve never gone to a cosmetics counter for advice is that I’m somewhat paranoid that if anyone looks at my face that closely, they’ll somehow magically perceive my history. Not that I rationally think that’s likely, or that it should really matter with someone I’m never going to see again, but you have to keep in mind that in “real life” I’m very, very different from here in terms of how open I am about my history. I never, ever disclose it to people I meet unless and until I know them well enough to be confident that they won’t react badly. The ability to “pass”/blend in obviously creates advantages in making my life a great deal easier on a day-to-day basis, but also creates a lot of dilemmas in terms of deciding whether and when to disclose my history to people. Especially in terms of dating, to be honest, which is the primary reason I’ve completely abdicated on that front, and have been entirely inactive, for about nine years now (given the many horror stories I’ve heard from other trans women on the subject). I just can’t deal with it.

This is a doctor owned facility. If that comment were made at a hospital, the nurses would just laugh and carry on with their day. We have no HR, it’s just a small facility owned by a group of doctors. One doctor in particular seems to notice things like that or uniform compliance, gum chewing, if there happens to be one spot of blood on the blanket from an IV start, etc. To my knowledge, none of the other docs have ever made an issue about any of the above. In that kind of situation, you wouldn’t start a war; you might look elsewhere if it mattered to you. As I said, the head nurse has not changed anything about her appearance and is still working, still head nurse, and still doing her job very well.

I just assumed he certainly wasn’t referring to ME :wink: and continued my MO as well.

You can always hop up to White Plains or some other suburb with nice stores, with a range of cosmetics lines, where you’re not really on your home turf. Best wishes.

Why are we assuming that the shoot actually WAS set as “some ideal of beauty or femininity” rather than what Caitlyn verbalized she wanted to do? “I’m sorry Caitlyn, I know you had your heart set on doing a glam photo spread, but if we print this, people who can’t afford these clothes/your makeup/your surgeries/you photographer might feel ignored or marginalized or not beautiful or upset that you have more money or that you look too traditionally feminine or…or…or…”

Geez, the woman wanted to do a glamour shoot to make herself happy and the magazine wanted to sell magazines. No matter WHAT look they settled on, someone would be kevetching that they were inflicting a particular standard on ALL women. No matter what style they settled on, by definition that would “ignore others who may not choose the style.” She had to choose one look to go with, and that’s the one she wanted. For herself. She shouldn’t have to be saddled with the job of representing all women, as there is no way to do that with one photograph and this was about her, not all women.

“And I’ll admit that the reason I’ve never gone to a cosmetics counter for advice is that I’m somewhat paranoid that if anyone looks at my face that closely, they’ll somehow magically perceive my history. Not that I rationally think that’s likely, or that it should really matter with someone I’m never going to see again, but you have to keep in mind that in “real life” I’m very, very different from here in terms of how open I am about my history.”

Makeup artists are about as accepting as one can be. Many of them have histories in the theater - for them, makeup is “play,” a way of self-expression, transformation, a little, or a lot, whatever one likes. This ain’t your grandmother’s Aunt Madge with the red lipstick! I bet you would not find anyone wondering or questioning your history, or if anything, they’d be pleased / honored to try to help you learn ways to enhance yourself to your own personal taste.

Nrds, none of us know, do we? It’s just a question, considering how the media does influence. Yes, kvetching, no matter what. In fact, a lot of strong reaction to the person who originally posed the questions, eh? See it?

Remember, this is Vanity Fair not Good Housekeeping. These photos are no different in style and actually more tame than most VF celebrity photo features. If we didn’t know that she was recently Bruce we wouldn’t bat an eye.

Yeah, maybe she should have gone on the cover of AARP magazine.
At any rate, a piece of me must be very different because, while I think sharing makeup tips with Donna is sweetly sisterly and from the heart, I can’t believe pages of…women sharing makeup tips. Ha. And no, you don’t have to jump on me for saying that. I already know whose eyebrows will arch.

Someone was talking about a young person who was transgender male to female, and said people were pressured to accept their sexuality. Transgender status is not about sexuality (transgender people can be the range of sexualities), it is about inate identity.

I think part of the problem we are seeing in the argument about Caitlyn’s spread, is about gender identity and gender expression. Gender identity is what you are, gender expression is how you play that out. Some of the more mean types claimed that transwomen were all men playing dress up, living into the societal idea of a woman as a barbie doll and so forth (leaving out that a lot of M to F transgender women dress like many other women most of the time). If they were talking a fetishistic crossdresser, maybe, but the point is the identity has nothing to do with how you express it. The fairly butch women who belonged to the church I did were still women, the mom with the young kids who wore jeans and tops was a woman, the expression is not the woman. The same people who criticize Caitlyn for ‘defining womanhood’ one way, also criticize young women who wear heels and miniskirts and such for much the same reasons, that this selling out and so forth. In the end, I think it is as silly to criticize someone for dressing “femme” as it is to criticize someone for dressing ‘plain’, the same way it is absolutely idiotic to criticize someone who likes jeans and sweatshirts, how they dress, how they comport themselves, has nothing to do with everyone else:).

Ironically, in some ways what Caitlyn is facing has nothing to do with being transgender and puts her in the middle of a major squabble among women, and that is about the unrealistic images of women that are presented routinely in magazines and such. Photo spreads are photoshopped, airbrushed, and otherwise altered to make the person being photographed “perfect”. Models, whose bodies represent a very tiny percent of the population (male or female, I might add), are sold as the ideal, and so forth. Something like 40% of women fall into what is routinely called plus size (and to be honest, I wonder about that, I suspect it may be much more like 50%), size 12 or 14 and up, yet fashion is all about people who are size 0…it doesn’t help that she had the money to work with absolute experts at reconstructive surgery, which few people can afford, the brazillian butt lift, the implants on the hips,to make the ‘curvy fatale’ look (I don’t know exactly what she had, but I read somewhere what a plastic surgeon said was likely), I am sure that irritates some, that women are held up to someone literally crafted to look like that. So in a sense, the backlash isn’t entirely about her being transgender, it is that she did the photo spread as the ‘ideal woman’ in their eyes.

His original face was far prettier. Why did he have to change that, I wonder.

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At any rate, a piece of me must be very different because, while I think sharing makeup tips with Donna is sweetly sisterly and from the heart, I can’t believe pages of…women sharing makeup tips. Ha. And no, you don’t have to jump on me for saying that. I already know whose eyebrows will arch."

No jumping on you, but there are plenty of topics that go pages and pages. The diet/exercise/healthy living thread. The periodic treads on what a MOB/MOG might want to wear. There are threads on home decorating/remodeling and on cooking/recipes - neither of which interest me personally, but I can certainly believe pages of women sharing their views.

“No jumping on you, but there are plenty of topics that go pages and pages…”

Exactly. The Colonoscopy thread, for example. :smiley:

Yea, I could not believe how many pages the colonoscopy discussion generated. Skin care is such a personal thing, everyone gets to share her personal preferences - it is understandable why there are as many posts as there are different posters. Colonoscopy, otoh, is the same boring thing: you prep, you suffer, you get imaged, the end.

I find myself wearing less makeup as I age ( I suspect that a lot of women do just the opposite ) I have never been able to wear lipstick since it always makes my lips peel, despite all the claims of being hypoallergenic or whatever they need to say to sell it .
I was never a fan of foundation or facial powder of any kind. I like my mascara and eye pencils applied very sparingly, occasional eyeshadow…
My mother and I had a conversation about Caitlyn today and it was interesting to hear the perspective on an 85 year old woman. She felt that the message was unfair and not inspirational to others who are in the process of going through the process. Not everyone has the financial means to change everything so quickly …that and the fact that her face was so unnaturally tight and full of botox that she cannot speak in a normal tone or voice anymore …but that certainly isn’t something exclusive to Caitlyn :wink: