The new Caitlyn Jenner

No apology necessary, lookingforward. I think it’s still true that the majority of marriages between straight non-trans women and their trans spouses end in divorce after transition, or become sexless “two sisters living together” relationships in which people stay together for any number of reasons. (My marriage ended five years before I transitioned, and my being trans was only one of a number of reasons.) And I think that’s always going to be true. After all, trans women should recognize more than anyone that given the importance of being true to oneself, they can hardly expect a straight female spouse to suddenly become a lesbian. Obviously, there are exceptions to every “rule.”

My objection, as I said, was to the writer’s equation of marriage to the child-parent relationship in terms of her “death” analogy. There is no reason whatsoever why transition of a parent should ever have to result in a “divorce.” Or should be compared to the death of a parent. Unfortunately, I do know (and know of) a number of trans women whose children have refused to see them ever since they transitioned. Often because of the influence of the other parent, unfortunately, and or a sense of “loyalty” to that parent. So the fact that it’s been so well-publicized that Caitlyn Jenner’s children are accepting of her is a very good thing, I believe.

It just blows my mind that someone could compare a gender transition to death (or worse).
When my dad lost his memory and personality in a car accident, that felt worse than death. His body was still there, looking at me, but there was no recognition in his eyes and he had no idea who I or my mom were. Worse, he wasn’t HIM anymore even though physically not much had changed.

I’m not saying that it’s easy for kids or (ex)spouses, but to compare it to death is just… I really can’t wrap my mind around that.

The gist of the article was that while her former husband got support and was celebrating, she had to deal with things by herself. Kris Jenner despite being one of the most public people in the country has chosen not to talk about the new Caitlyn Jenner. It may be too painful to share.

The pain the author is expressing is very real, and the breakup of relationships around a mate transitioning does have some elements of death, as the end of any relationship does. While obviously a transgender person is not dead, and it is beyond a certain point a really bad comparison, there also is going to be a period of grieving as a person changes, it is part of the psychology of dealing with change, the denial, anger, compromise, etc, but the end is not the same (though angry spouses, the ones who cut the kids off from the transitioning spouse, do make it into death, at least to them, it is that vicious).

It is also true that up until recently, there has been very little support for the partners of transgender people, the support groups out there mostly have been for transgender people and there still is relatively little for the spouses, even therapists who work with trans folks seem to be stymied in that regards IME (and I hope there is more help out there for mates these days, I know more are finding ways to stay together as mates, not as sisters or aunts or whatever…). It is very hard on the mate, especially where it is a M to F married to a woman. Even in this day and age a lot of women take something out of being married , being “Mrs so and so”, and then there is the identity issue, women are a lot more fluid then men sexually, but there is still the stigma of being seen as gay, or going from being an ‘ordinary’ couple to being a ‘lesbian couple’ (the book “My Husband Betty” and its follow on has some pretty good descriptions of the feelings). A lot of women might otherwise be okay, but they are afraid of how others will react, family, friends, and it is too much. Worse, people and groups who might be very supportive of a trans person who has lost their mate, is broken up over their family splitting up, will treat someone who is transitioning and trying to keep their family together like a leper, it is almost like there is a script for this kind of thing, and the spouse can get treated even worse, like “how can you stay with X, she is going to be a woman”, either in the context of “you’ll just be a boat anchor on her” or “you can’t stay together, she is becoming a woman, what kind of idiot are you, it can’t work”. I think if we didn’t have the stigma of being different, with all the baggage around sex and sexual identity (hopefully with same sex marriage now legal and most people starting to see that being gay or lesbian or hopefully trans as something human and not dirty, that this will change, but i am not holding my breath), that a lot more might be able to make it.

One of the things that gets me mad about articles like this is the concept that the transitioning person “lied” to their spouse, somehow cheated them, etc. First of all, not all trans people know from the time they were little they were trans, things get buried, there are plenty of ‘men’s men’ out there who go through life, have a family, then something hits later on and it just doesn’t click. With Caitlyn, it is another pattern, growing up in the time she did , there was no support, other than the (lurid) accounts of Christine Jorgensen, it wasn’t talked about, and the pressure if you were a boy was to excel and grow up and get married and to fill that model you squared your shoulders and sucked it in. They didn’t get married to hide what they were necessarily (some did, used it as a tool to ‘bury’ the demon), they genuinely fell in love with a woman, they wanted to have a family, and then later on things happen and they find themselves where they feel they have to transition or do something bad to themselves. There was dishonesty, but it was more to themselves than to the spouse, and transition is difficult enough without the blame game or the guilt crap, this isn’t someone who married a rich woman, stole her money then transitioning, this is someone who likely fell in love with a woman, wanted to make it work, tried, and then found the inner being was too much and they needed the freedom to be themselves. It isn’t a tale of victim or hero, it is the tale of a family dealing with something hard to deal with, and both partners and the family deserve support and understanding. It might make the grieving spouse feel better to be looked at as a victim, but in the end that helps neither person IMO.

It is funny, the other place where spouses break up over transition tends to be where you have two men and one decides to transition, it is as bad or worse then men transitioning in a hetero relationship. With women the two people often stay together after transition it seems, which is interesting, there seems to be a lot less issues around that IME.

See #'s 1 and 2 in this article (about harmful stereotypes concerning “acceptable narratives” for trans people), which deal with situations in which transition creates a “mixed orientation” couple:

http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/04/acceptable-trans-narratives/

And I do happen to know of one couple that has, in fact, turned to “ethical polyamory” as an alternative to ending the marriage…

I would hope that this kind of problem will become less and less frequent as time goes by and trans people, generally speaking, come to terms with who they are – and come out, if not actually transition – at younger ages, and marriages in which the transgender spouse is afraid to reveal their “shameful secret,” and/or thinks marriage will “cure” them, or has managed to suppress their transness entirely, or hasn’t yet consciously dealt with being trans at all, become less common. The world has changed enormously for trans people in the last 20 years, and the Internet obviously has a lot to do with it.

I don’t know. I have a friend who has a 24 yo d who has been living as a male, wants to be known by a male name, etc. It feels like the death of her daughter to her. She’s used to being the mother of a girl and a boy and now poof she’s the mother of two boys. As someone who is also a mother of a girl and a boy it sure would rock my world to feel that I now had two boys or two girls. I can see how it would like a death of sorts. Even if fully supportive. You have a vision of who you raised.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=112W8q8XXKw

Caitlyn Jenner accepts the Arthur Ashe Courage Award

I thought it was amazing - I didn’t see it live but watched it later last night. I thought she did a wonderful job and was so poised and gracious.

Replying to the tall woman with big feet discussion …

At 5’10 and a size 12, IMO there are few comfortable dressy and classy options. I have noted, however, that some manufacturers are offering very sexy heels in women’s sizes 12-15. Some might describe them as “trashy.” I am quite sure it’s not bio-women buying such things.

Pizzagirl, I was talking about the converse – that a parent transitioning should not be compared to the parent’s death, for what I hoped were self-evident reasons.

As for your friend’s situation, I hope she comes to realize that her child’s transition isn’t really a “death” either, and that her “vision” of her child was never who her child really was. There are parents who find out that their child is gay and think of it as a “death” of their child also. It may be a death of their vision and plans and dreams for their child’s life, but that’s about them, and not really their child. I don’t see being trans as being any more like a genuine death than being gay. I empathize with people’s surprise and disappointment, but some comparisons are beyond the pale. A straight person’s spouse transitioning? That is qualitatively different, because it can mean the end of an essential basis for the marriage. It should not be so for the transition of a parent or child. Even my father, who was in his 80s when I transitioned, understood that my being his daughter instead of his son didn’t change anything essential about our relationship, let alone mean that his “son” had died. And yes, I think people should think of a different analogy, and I hope your friend has never said to her son (yes, her son) that she thinks of his transition as a death.

Death is permanent,. A relationship is lost and has no chance to move forward. We could talk about the loss of the old vision and the need to explore a new reality, when a key person in your life transitions. But it’s not death.

She hasn’t, Donna, but that doesn’t mean it’s not difficult for her to handle.

“Obviously this is going to be a lot harder for people for whom this comes as a complete shock, but if they are in shock they haven’t been paying attention. I think most people who are transgender have been either quietly sending signs or desperately hoping those they love will notice and show some acceptance so they can make that first step.”

No, actually my friend’s d – this came out of nowhere. Absolutely nowhere. And that’s what she will say. She has recently decided / felt that she is really a man and taking steps towards living that, presenting as a man at work, being called a male name, etc. She explicitly says this is NOT “I’ve known ever since I was little but never said anything.”

(BTW, no offense intended that I’m using the pronoun she.)

My friend is supportive but it does feel like the death of her daughter. I can’t fault her for feeling that way. She IS losing a daughter and that hurts for a mother, even if her new son is a great guy. I don’t think it’s quite fair to pretend that it’s the kind of thing that isn’t pretty earth shattering to one’s loved ones. And far, far beyond “I’m gay”.

“At 5’10 and a size 12, IMO there are few comfortable dressy and classy options. I have noted, however, that some manufacturers are offering very sexy heels in women’s sizes 12-15. Some might describe them as “trashy.” I am quite sure it’s not bio-women buying such things.”

It actually has gotten a lot better, places like Zappos and Amazon carry larger sizes, and there are a lot of places on the net that have larger sized shoes, women have gotten taller and also the typical shoe sizes have gone up, too, and they aren’t all fetish heels (I suspect the large size ‘trashy’ shoes you see are probably doing a lot of business with crossdressers and drag queens:)

@pizzagirl I think makes a very valid point about those around someone is transitioning and how they handle it, there is kind of a process of grieving there, of adjustment. I think that saying a parent is dead to the child is kind of ridiculous hyperbole, but there is a grieving process IME, of adjusting to a new role. I personally thing that the kids never really stop deep down thinking of the parent in the old role in some ways, but on the other hand unless the other spouse poisons them, I don’t think the kids necessarily see it as ‘death’…I also think it is different with younger kids and kids who are grown up…The funniest story I heard was from a friend who lives in Brooklyn, their kids go to school there, and one day their son (who is like 7) came home and matter of factly, like talking about what he had for lunch that day, said “Dave’s dad is now his mom called Jennifer, she said hi to me today”, and then prattled on about a fight two kids had, a girl that was teasing him, etc:). Kids are amazing, with adults screwing them up, they are amazing. I personally think that the old line telling an adult to grow up and stop acting like a child is a true perjorative, kids seem to act more like adults than adults do a lot of the time.

Caitlyn is definitely looking a lot better, more confident in herself, which is great. Part of it is her face is still healing from the surgery she had, that takes a while to heal, she probably had major bone work, and that can take well over a year to fully heal. It takes courage to walk out into a room like that, given that sports centered stuff doesn’t have the best record when it comes to being accepting, and reading some of the comments on twitter and such about her receiving the award i realize how many bitter, angry people there are out there.

I really doubt that your friend’s daughter now son’s transition came out of nowhere. I’ll tell you what came out of nowhere . . . my best friend died on Wednesday morning. It was out of nowhere. We texted the day before and now she is gone - really really gone. Having a child or spouse or friend who you thought was one thing and is really another is nothing at all like that.

@saintfan, I’m sorry for your sudden loss. Best friends are unique, and hard to come by. Losing one is hard.

I am so sorry Saintfan. So terrible.

thanks

Yes, sf. Our hearts are with you.