@saintfan:
Yep, that is it in a nutshell, it is the one thing people confuse, gender expression with gender identity. It is why people are sensitive when someone puts out the idea of gender fluidity, because a lot of people assume it is the expression with a trans person, when to paraphrase Louis Sullivan, expression follows identity, not the other way around:). There are some weird wrinkles to this, that probably have a lot of explanations, like why for example it is common for an M To F trans person when living as a man to be attracted to women, and then when they transition suddenly men become attractive (Jennifer Finney Boylan wrote up this in her memoir āSheās Not Thereā). I donāt know if they were attracted to men all the time but it didnāt feel right interacting with a man when living as one (either it being āgayā or simply not feeling right), if somehow hormones play into it, some kind of internally defined roles, donāt have the foggiest notion, but it does happen:)
I finally got around to watching episode 2 of I Am Cait last night. I continue to be impressed by it. Yes - there is primping and choosing of clothes but it is really a foil for getting at deeper issues. They talked a lot about voice modulation and are working into some deep and very ārealā exploration of real discrimination. Caitlyn has assembled a group of trans women who she was meeting with and they take a road trip to San Fran to meet others and discuss topics of concern. They continue to hit the privilege issue head on and use it as a way to approach the experiences of other trans people. The show shifts back and forth from struggles that are personal to Caitlyn in real time and larger issues in the community. It seems so far like Caitlyn and the producers havenāt shied away from challenge.
Since Caitlyn herself is the primary producer, Iām favorably impressed by her willingness to allow these challenges to her privilege ā and her lack of any real understanding of the obstacles faced by so many other trans women ā to be aired. It suggests to me that sheās open to listening and learning.
It will be interesting as they address the challenge to her politics as well. That was a tense moment when she articulated her feelings about social services and support programs. Episode 2 was āto be continuedā so I imagine they will continue that conversation along with the sex work issue and how people who are dependent on working for hourly wages can fall into that if they face job discrimination. As someone who is financially independent Caitlyn has never had to think about just getting up and going to work in that capacity and what would happen if you couldnāt.
@saintfan:
Hopefully she will learn, because hearing the Ayn Rand/right wing version of the poor and poverty quite frankly made me want to throw up, when she insinuated that trans folks using social services somehow were lazy or that getting help meant they didnāt have incentive to work. It is pretty obvious that she has led a life of privilege that in many ways has isolated her from many of the consequences of being trans that others face, when you have a lot of money you may face derision from people, you may face other consequences, but no one can take away your money or your house for being trans. One trans friend of mine, quoting I assume someone else, said it reminded her of Marie Antoinette saying āLet them eat cakeā. I have also heard rumblings from the grapevine (which are admittedly hearsay) that Caitlyn also has dismissed how hard it can be to avoid scrutiny when trans, that she has made statements that she doesnāt understand what the hulabaloo is about with passing. It doesnāt help that many of the trans folks she is hanging out with tend to be ones who either through genetics or surgery (or both) have the kind of looks many trans folks donāt.
It is one of the reasons I am uncomfortable with her because of her fame being the de facto spokesperson for transgender issues, I donāt think she really has experienced enough outside her bubble to realize how hard it really is on a lot of people who transition, how hard their lives really are, right now to me it appears like she is giving lip service to āall the poor sisters who struggleā, rather than really understanding. Put it this way, there are a lot of trans folks who because of their situation, are basically eaking out an existence and able to survive because there are at least some programs that can help them, public hospitals if they get sick (as dicey as that can be), housing and income assistance and so forth, and very few of them, based on experience, do so because it is easy way to live, they do it because it is a last line of defense for them.
MP, agree with some of your last para. At this point, I donāt get what makes her (or earned her) the de facto, other than her current celebrity, that bubble is really a trap. Sheās not even a particularly bright sort, so I wonder how much analytical insight weāll get, over time. I also wonder how much she is doing that isnāt celebritized. Is she involved, outside the limelight?
Also, her producer status: for many celebrities, this is a gimmie, a perk, rather than a true management responsibility. I unfortunately suspect there is a lot of āmachineā at work,to make this a successful tv program. Time will tell.
Iām sorry, but I have to say ARGH!!!
" For those more knowledgable - does this teen have a chance of a good life as a male? " vis a vis being 5ā2" tall.
No, not any more than a birth XY living as a male who is 5ā2" has a āchance of a good life as a maleā. Or a birth XX over 6ā tall has a āchance of a good life as a femaleā.
My cousin is a little person, and it is really offensive to me that somehow height equates with āthe chance of a normal lifeā. She is married and very happy, she is a minister, and she is one of the strongest people I know emotionally.
Everything comes back to each individualās experiences and stereotypes.
Also, I do not agree with my idea of gender fluidity being an indemnification of trans folks.
Rather, after many many years of not knowing where I fit in, I feel that it is most likely, based on societal norms, that I am gender fluid in many of my life choices.
The alternative is that I have no gender identity at all. I do not know which idea is more offensive to others.
Am I allowed to have my own feelings without them being interpreted as an attack on others?
Again, I might not present myself correctly, but I hope my basic beliefs arenāt being seen as hate.
But itās not about āus.ā When gender fluidity came up, I thought it was presented as an option while maintaining the birth assignment label. As in, sheās a female with masculine appearance, dress, interests, etc. One side of the continuum of female choices. But what about the person who doesnāt want to be a female, no matter how she, say, dresses? (Now I feel like weāre going in circles, returning to a topic we got past, sorry.)
And, it seemed/seems some people are uncomfortable with the physical gender transformation and just wish that woman who feels she is truly a man would just live with the label, but change the superficial appearance and etc. IOW, spare the rest of those who canāt imagine or canāt accept or just feel queasy.
I think it takes a lot to step back from our own personal choices.
If anyone can get through to her, I think itās Jenny Boylan ā after all, she is a college professor! (Formerly at Colby, now at Barnard.) She has said that she wouldnāt have participated if she didnāt think that Jenner was willing to listen. I happen to know Jenny, and have spent some time with her on a couple of occasions, and I trust what she says.
There was another person at the original luncheon (an artist) who my D met when the artist did an installation at their college. I canāt recall her name but my D said that she was an inspirational person and speaker in addition to being a great artist.
I think the naturally occurring and possibly unintentional ādevilās advocateā role that Jenner is playing might be good. She is giving voice to some of the challenges but also some of the worse stereotypes and it gives others a chance to really address them up front. To me, from the outside, it is almost more powerful than hearing the story as people have been trying to tell it. I donāt know why and I feel bad for saying it but something a out the juxtaposition of experience and resources just clarifies the issues facing trans people. Even if she is looking and behaving more like ātrans-Barbieā at times, I donāt think that is necessarily bad in this context for getting better messages out. It gives others the forum to say, āno, it really isnāt all adulation and evening gownsā. Remember that piece by the spouse who made it sound like everyone was rolling out the red carpet for the trans former spouse and she was left out of the party? Using Caitlyn as a foil the others were showing that it really isnāt like that for most people.
@rhandco:
I donāt think anyone was saying that gender fluid was invalid, or anything close to that. Gender fluidity, non gender, mixed gender, are all valid expressions IMO, and I donāt think anyone was really arguing against it.
The problem was when you get into discussion of trans issues, what inevitably happens is you get those who are totally freaked out about it, who for example will tell a M to F trans person āIf you identify as a woman, why do you need to transition, you can express your āinner womanā in many waysā and then go on about androgynous clothing, presenting as your āfemale selfā in private or part time, and a lot of that has to do with fear, whether it being the partner/spouse of a trans person, or people simply around someone who is trans.
For someone like yourself, in a sense such things are natural, you might present a mix of things (and feel that, mind you) one day, you might want to be more on the āfemmeā side of things one day, you might be more āmasculineā the next (and I apologize for those labels, I couldnāt come up with better ones). But to someone whose identity is more binary (and binary gender in a sense is a real thing, even though most people are in some ways not ātotally femaleā or ātotally maleā, in the sense of characteristics and modes of expression that are generally classed as āmale or femaleāā¦for example, Hillary Clinton who prefers pantsuits to dresses or a woman who doesnāt wear makeup or a man who wears colorful clothing and suchā¦), that kind of fluidity wouldnāt work for them, and more importantly, they see someone suggesting that to them as being dismissing what they are (and note, I donāt think you meant that at all with your comments about fluidity, if I did I would not be writing this). Gender fluidity is not an answer for someone who is trans, any more than binary gender works for a fluid person, but sadly out of fear and ignorance gender fluidity is what is suggested a lot to those who are trans, that expressing their āfeminineā or āmasculineā side while staying as male or female is perfectly fine, and it isnāt:)
@donnal:
Jenny Boylan is genuine, I have heard her talk and know people who know her, and I think she believes she can make an impact. On the other hand, my impression is not favorable, I think Caitlyn because of her celebrity, both as an athlete before this, then living in the world of the rich and famous , totally buys into the idea that if people struggle or are poor, whether trans or not, it is because they are deficient, unlike herself, she probably sees herself as this self made person who did great things based on her own achievement, and that her success in transitioning (however she defines that) is because of the person she isā¦for all the lip service she gives fellow trans people, I donāt think it is genuine, it kind of reminds me of Ronald Reagan visiting the South Bronx in 1980, when it looked like Berlin after WWII, and mouthing platitudes, and ended up doing nothing to help there or other economically wrecked areas. Her economic privilege (and to a large extent that she was already a celebrity and a tv reality star) has made her basically an Ayn Rand follower, and I donāt think she can see through the privilege to really understand how āthe other half livesā and how hard it is for many or most trans people. Put it this way, someone with millions of dollars in the bank and independent revenue streams and the like doesnāt have to worry about the consequences. If she were someone who depended on endorsement deals for her income, if she was basically 20 years younger, had a family, was in the public spotlight and depended on that for a living, it would have been more eye opening, but her position shields herself. When I see her say how hard it is for people not as fortunate as herself, it comes off as scripted blather, not genuine. I really wish her (and people like her) would think of the old line āthere but for the grace of God go Iā, and realize that there fortune doesnāt mean that somehow they are better than others, or that if they made it, anyone can, and especially with the tough lives far too many still have in the trans community, not realizing that the resources she has shields her from a lot of the pain and suffering that can go along with it.
Do you HAVE to go back to bashing those of us who have expressed an opinion in favor of greater gender fluidity as a bunch of unsympathetic pearl-clutchers who canāt deal with trans people and who cannot imagine that there are people for whom that would never satisfy their need? Really??? Yet another sermon on the subject?
I thought that we had gotten beyond that.
Itās not really you, Consolation. Itās more the commonality of peopleās fears. We know you.
But many do personalize - āI wouldnātā or āI canāt imagineā¦ā The trans commitment is more than the superficials. And more than how we might deal with fluidity. Jenner wasnāt satisfied with being a woman only behind closed doors or in secret forays. And, no way he could appear in public in a dress and heels and just call it āhisā self expression du jour.
But Iād love it if she could, IFāand that is a big ifāthat would be what made her feel comfortable and happy with herself. It seems clear that it would not have served the purpose for HER.
I used to know a person who was a biological maleāwith children, like all of the trans women Iāve knownāwho liked to wear dresses and lipstick a lot of the time but didnāt seem to intend to actually transition. There was no attempt to "passāI hate that termāvery much a man in a dress. S/he went by both his masculine birth name and a feminine version of it. I asked them what they would prefer in the way of names/pronouns once, and they said, good-humoredly, āWell, Iām enjoying my more feminine side right now but either is fine.ā In my social circle, this person was accepted as however s/he was presenting. (I have no idea if s/he went on to actually transition.) Of course, I am quite sure that many people were not so open minded and that s/he may have taken abuse from others on the street. But s/he seemed quite comfortable with it.
I have a friend who has been involved in long term relationships with both men and women. When she was exclusively with a woman for 20 years or something, was she a lesbian? Was she bisexual? Does it, for doGās sake, MATTER?
Itās all a continuum of humanity. Who cares whether where someone is today is where they were yesterday. If people need to alter themselves in order to feel comfortable in the spot on that continuum where they find they belong, have at it. And yes, actual gender transition is of course a MUCH more serious commitment than changing your hair or clothes! Does that even need to be said?
Now, of course I completely realize that this is not how a lot of people feel, and I am dreaming of a utopia of sorts. 
I am willing to see how the show plays out. One of her oft repeated mantras is āI have a lot to learnā. If the show is about educating people then why not accept that she needs educating and see how it unfolds. It looked like there were plenty of people there ready to give her an education in more ways than one. We all get that she is amazingly privileged both in the past as a good looking, athletic man and now as a well resourced trans woman. She wouldnāt be in this position and have a show if she werenāt famous and well resourced but as much as we might think thatās unfair it is what it is. If she is willing to use that platform to get a bit vulnerable and show her own prejudices, privilege and pre-conceived ideas about life and allow others to talk her down in this context that seems like a good thing to me. Plenty of people share her views on politics and money so to start from that perspective and work back to reality (if thatās what happens) seems like it would be pretty powerful.
Just saying, saintfan, that for me, the proof will be over time. Is this another tv venture, a hot topic to make some $ off, in the guise of concerns? Or a serious attempt to clarify a segment of society from several perspectives? Would love to know who her associate producers are, the researchers and consultants. The whole team. I may be sensitized to the way the K clan has already milked so much, the divorces, the spats, the decorating arguments, etc.
I think I just said, āsee how the show plays outā which is another way of saying āover timeā. As a non-watcher of the K clan I am not pre-judging this by the K-clan consortium.
Re: the genderfluidity thing, in my experience with gender/sex dysphoria (for what little thatās worth), itās not that I want to be a āmascIuline womanā or wear āguy clothes,ā itās that I want a male body. If anything I probably want to be slightly feminine guy, but I still want to be distinctly a guy. I think playing with gender roles and expectations and being transāas a distinct gender identity different from oneās birth sexāare two distinct, if often intertwined, things.