Yes, @psych_, but a less rigid view of gender and sex would make it unworthy of comment that this man is more feminine or that woman is less so. Which would be a positive for everyone, IMHO.
@consolation:
In a perfect world, the kind of things you talk about would not matter, but sadly they do, far too many are hung up on what other people do, and despite all the gains we have had with sexuality and expression, there is a tremendous regressive force trying to force people back into neat little boxes, whether it be poisonous religious nonsense (and no, I am not saying all religion, but a lot of it is toxic to this idea) or those who simply want everyone to be like themselves and so forth.
And if in your prior post you were aiming at my statements, you are way off base (since you didnât refer to the post that bothered you, I cannot tell). I wasnât aiming that at anyone in particular, I was talking a reality that trans people face, those telling them that they donât need to transition/shouldât transition because they should be happy with expressing themselves, etc. There is nothing wrong with gender non conformity, the guy who wants to wear a dress and lipstick, the woman who wants to wear mens dockers and a polo shirt, whatever, is fine, I simply was saying that there are a lot of people who seem to think that gender non conformity is somehow the answer for trans people. Those who advocate for gender non conformity have nothing to do with what I meant, I was talking about people who have the gall to tell someone who is trans what they need or donât need, very big differenceâŠand I also am not saying that gender non conformity isnât real and everyone should transition, that would be truly idiotic.
I missed the first half hour which was the continuation of the San Francisco trip so I didnât see how the âreal worldâ confrontation turned out. I read a synopsis later. I did see the 2nd half. Something that struck me was when they were sitting around the table talking about gender vs sexuality and Caitlyn said that she hasnât even gotten that far yet or considered that phase much at all. She talked about having the âright partsâ and someone gently said, âthe parts that you feel comfortable with.â To me the whole show is like that - incremental changes of attitude, incremental shifts in terms and ways of thinking about things, incremental understanding of the experience of others and just the need to be patient. The group of women that she had around her for the first 3 episodes have done a nice job of nudging Caitlyn in different directions. Changing the inside is a more gradual process than changing the outside.
It was also powerful when Jenny told her that she needed to get out of her head and look outside herself more. She has been focused on how she looks, sounds and moves through the world which is understandable. Jenny said that is a really normal phase when someone is in transition but ultimately it should be followed up with looking back outside yourself and letting go of some of the narcissism.
No, I donât think she completely gets the privilege thing yet but to me progress is progress. For me it is also a help just to be able to watch this group of trans women move around in the world and get to stare a bit then get used to it. The show is helping me to get over some of the novelty of it. Weâve talked before about those mental calculations about gender that we do unconsciously. I feel like I am resetting my mind to not do that double take or internal search in an aim to put someone into a neat category.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-manslaughter-charge-caitlyn-jenner-20150820-story.html
50-50 chance of being charged with manslaughter for driving at an unsafe speed.
Misdemeanor manslaughter. I doubt she is going to jail.
Let justice prevail without fear or favor directed to a celebrity defendant such as Jenner. However, Los Angeles prosecutorsâ record in trials involving celebrities is not very inspiring.
I suspect she is not going to be sent to jail for that, something that has a year in jail is likely to get a suspended sentence with other factorsâŠher real problem will be in the civil trial, there she could face real consequences. With something like this, even if it isnât a celebrity, they arenât going to send someone to already crowded jails they donât have to.
I think jail time for an accident would be ridiculous. Would a non celebrity really face jail time for this either? Correct me if Iâm wrong, but there is no evidence of substance abuse, texting while driving, correct? Driving too fast for the load she was carrying, perhaps she was daydreaming and couldnât react swiftly enough? There but for the grace of God go I, and probably any number of us writing about this.
Do I think she and her insurance should compensate the victims? Of course.
Wow. Talk about in bad taste.
Celebrate = make money off of
I donât think her show is going to last very long. The couple of times I attempted to watch it, I got so bored that I had to stop watching. From my brief viewings, it just seemed like a bunch of self absorbed women talking about themselves. If you are fascinated with the LGBT community, sure, it could be compelling. OtherwiseâŠto this casual viewerâvery dull.
Judging from the âReal Housewivesâ franchise, then, this show should do incredibly well. 
Iâve never seen that show, but Iâm guessing there must be lots of cheating, and steamy sex scenes? I didnât see any of that in this show, but then again, I couldnât manage to watch for very long.
I admit that I havenât watched it myself â I donât think itâs really meant for people like me â but I guess itâs achieving its goal as long as those watching it see the people in it as women. Boring or otherwise.
Maybe the show isnât completely achieving its goal, then. Most all of the characters appeared to me, as female, however, Caitlyn still looked, moved, and sounded like a man, in my opinion. Perhaps it takes a lot more time to get it down. But it did seem to me that with all the feminine additions of things like heavy makeup, low cut dresses, big boobs, well styled hair, it appeared odd that she was still so masculine. Iâm not much into the silliness of ultra femininity (no offense to those who are), so that didnât do much for me either.
From the 20 minutes of one of the episodes I watched, it didnât work very well, it was pretty boring. From my limited viewing of it it looks to me like they are trying to do two things in the show , part reality show a la the Kardashian crap, and part trying to be serious centering around being transgender, and it doesnât work well. And while I more than appreciate someone wanting to present well groomed and so forth (I am not saying they should be dressed in 1970âs feminist wear), or for someone like Caitlyn finally having the freedom to play around with looks and such, but it comes off very much as someone else said, heavy makeup, low cut tops and boobs, again a la âTh Kardashiansâ. Part of the problem also is it is trying to take itself seriously, too seriously, and there is a distinct lack of humor there and I think that hurts it, too. It makes it kind of unnatural, rather than real people talking about real issues, it is kind of plastic, like the real housewives and so forth. I think my first impression turned out to have some truth to it, I donât think Caitlyn was ready to jump into something like this, busdriver11 picked up on something, one of the biggest things that allows a person to present in their new gender and to come off as real, is being comfortable with themselves, and with Caitlyn what I see is you are seeing something still relatively early in that process, I donât think she is totally there yet with feeling comfortable and it shows. A friend of mine compared it to getting chased by a dog (she is a southern gal:), she said even the most scared dog senses when someone is uncertain or fearful and will respond in kind, and it is kind of like that. Being self conscious, unsure, makes someone stand out, and standing out also raises red flags.
I have watched most of the episodes. While some of the gals like to play âover the topâ, they all just come off as normal people when they sit around and talk. I suppose that means cancellation in the worksâŠthose trans women are just women, boringâŠ
Seriously though. I hope it lasts a while. Iâm learning some things. For instance, how does T really fit i to LGBT? Two different thi gs. And this came up in the last episode, that gay men sometimes look at trans women as super closeted gays,and look down on them. From the gay male reception they got, I was struck by the absence of lesbians there, which makes me wonder if they also have âissuesâ with these women,
I am serious when I say they are quite normal. Iâm not sure what people expect, or perhaps I did nor know what to expect. But most seemed very normal. Even those who didnât seemed normal in their quieter moments. They are just peopleâŠgo figure.
I think Cait will always be somewhat masculine. Sheâs a tomboy who also likes to dress up. It did strike me that her voice, her gait, her mannerisms, they are all Bruceâs. Why should she change? What is the point?
Does anyone know why her mouth is like that? She eats with it open, so it could just be lack of manners, but she also only drinks with a straw, and the way she holds it seems off. Plastic surgery question, rather than a trans question.
If you want to see a cute heartwarming trans story, I am Jazz is better. It is impossible not to like that young girl! No matter what your bent, she will leave you believing she IS a girl, and liking that girl:)
âI think Cait will always be somewhat masculine. Sheâs a tomboy who also likes to dress up. It did strike me that her voice, her gait, her mannerisms, they are all Bruceâs. Why should she change? What is the point?â
A tomboy? She was a man, not a tomboy. You ask, why change? She has done every other possible thing, going to great lengths, to become a woman, I am sure she wants to appear as a woman. Iâm also confident that she will change the other issues in time.
I think musicprnt nailed it.
@hrsmom:
The whole LGBT thing is kid of complex, there are all kinds of identity politics at work, and there also is no consistency. There are gays and lesbians who fully support trans folks, understand that though they are very different people, the issues they face with discrimination and so forth are very similar. There have been raging debates about the T being included, that T is not about sexuality, etc, but for many it comes down to two minorities with some common interests.
Some gay men still see M to F transwomen as gays afraid to be gay (which is interesting, cause prob at least 40% of M to Fâs tend to like women even after transition), but they these days are a minority IMO, it was much worse years ago. There are gay women, especially the uber feminist/seperatist types (who are aging rapidly) who saw M to F transwomen as fakes, as guys off on the fantasy of being lesbians, all kinds of crap (there are some pretty horrible books written by that type, look up one Janice Raymond from the hopefully long ago past as a prime example). That said, IMO most gay women these days IME, especially younger ones, donât share those attitudes.
There is also some reciprocated dislike, there are some trans folks, mostly among M to Fâs, who think that if the T wasnât in LGBT, that mainstream America would accept them, especially the religious conservatives who are often vehemently homophobic, since being transgender is not about sex, so they are ânormalâ and so forth (It is a mirror of what they used to call the corporate gays, who wanted to basically hide transgender people, gender non normative gay people, bi people, drag queens, etc, and present the image of being ânormalâ).
I think a lot of people watching the show probably expected a spectacle, or something from Ru Paulâs âDrag Raceâ, but you are dealing with normal people, the fact that they are boring, well, means it is poor entertainment, but then a lot of real life is boring lol.
Caitlyn looks the way she does because she has had extensive feminization surgery, on top of everything else, and it can be quite extensive. I donât know what she had done, but routine things I have seen done include literally breaking the jaw and reshaping it, they do things like take a plate out of the skull and reshape it, implants in the face, removing teeth, reshaping the cheekbones, you name it, we are talking pretty extensive surgery, and it takes a long time to recover from it, it isnât a nose job. It can take many months for the swelling to go down, and can take a year or more to fully recover, and often people have things that are lasting, like nerve damage (not always, but it is fairly common, especially with the extensive work). Looking at Caitlyn before and after, she had quite a package, and I think her face reflects all that work, I would bet she had work on the jaws, plus also probably had skin tightened up and such (surgery and or botox), and that will do it, too. I am surprised she didnât do more with the voice, with voice training you can do a lot, I know some trans women who had very deep voices as men, and had wonderfully melodious voices as women, it is all about practice and learning the differences in speech. Likewise, with mannerisms and such, it is simply a matter of practice. It could be Caitlyn is saying to heck with it, I am 65, and I donât want to waste time doing those things, but it is the one thing I have heard time and again with transition, that those kind of things should be worked on long before you get to the big things, that a lot of the work is not surgery and hormones:).
My big hope is she learns a bit of empathy, true empathy, and truly realizes how privileged she is, and how hard it is for so many. Transitioning when you have the financial resources and no fear of losing a job and a livelyhood is a lot easier , especially when someone is already marginalized and trying to be themselves. To quote my favorite philosopher, Italo Bumbolini (a character from a favorite novel, âThe Secret of Santa Vittoriaâ), âmaking an omelet with eggs is no feat; making an omelet without eggs, now that is a featâ (and no pun was intended there, that is a direct quote). When I hear someone spouting Ayn Rand nonsense about transgender people living at the margins, it makes me cringe, she needs to sit and listen to stories of real people and what they face, like professionals who ended up doing sex work because they couldnât get work in their field, or the young kids, often black and hispanic, and what they face, it is pretty sobering.
Thanks. Very informative. I also was shocked about the woman who was fired. I tried to imagine if one of my co workers transitioned. It would be uncomfortable, but mostly bc I would worry what was right or wrong to say/do, but suspect, since it would be the same person, it would quickly pass.
It seems silly to me to fire someone. Unless they are the organist at the big evangelical church, I canât imagine who would even care. Where I work, there was a short video series on a few teams employee. Interesting. It seemed a nonevent work-wise.