@hrsmom:
It has gotten better, but it still can be a rough road, even where local law protects transgender people. In some facets of IT, it probably would evoke yawns, in other jobs, probably not as much, though I have heard of high level financial people, like a major fund manager at a major financial company, who transitioned. There are also places where you transition and then the person finds themselves basically quietly forced out, it all depends. One of the more ironic things I have observed is people you would expect would have a hard time, especially older, more conservative socially/religion wise people, seem to get it, whereas people who are very liberal, wear it on their sleeves, often can be the worst at dealing with it. One of the standard lines is if you are good at your job, and have strong skills and are respected, it is a lot easier than if you are on the margins or just a so so worker, it also depends if you are customer facing and the clients, a lot of factors. One friend of mine transitioned at a tech job in silicon valley, and when she went and explained to the boss, she was shaking, and her boss was like âwhat is wrong? Are you sick? Did you kill someone and are on the runâ, and when she finally got out what was going on, her boss kind of looked at her funny, and said âThatâs all?ââŠand he meant it, told her in the kind of workplace they had, that was literally a no brainerâŠand she showed up to work one day as her new self (they did let people know, she did it after a long weekend) and about the only thing was these coworkers (male and female), who she thought didnât care about clothing and such, all wanted to give her advice lol. She said some of her coworkers were a little put out, they had a pool on whether she would wear heels her first day on the job, and she wore flats, and those who bet the other way were a bit unhappy lol.
Anyone still watching I am Cait? I caught it last night and am increasingly disliking Caitlyn.
I am tired of the professional hair and makeup, wardrobe assistant, personal assistants, etc. Every episode shows her sitting like a queen with her minions in attendence. It would ne more interesting and realistic to see her doing/struggling with her own hair and makeup.
She highlights the issues of getting new ID with name and gender change after meeting with trans people struggling with this issue - and then has an attorney come to her home to personally advise her on navigating the issue - while her assistant takes notes on what to do.
She frets about her membership at an exclusive golf club that is in Bruce 's name - and seems to plan to keep it that way.
Those are just a few examples, but she seems so removed from real life - I actually found Bruce Jenner to be a more compelling and sympathetic figure. Caitlyn is incredibly self-absorbed. She has done the impossible - made me feel sorry for Kris Jenner!
I have been watching in âcatch upâ and am behind. I find her annoying a good chunk of the time but I also still like how the other trans women use her as a foil to correct her and call her on her misconceptions. I still find the show educational and it raises interesting questions for me. I am just willing to accept that Caitlyn is a posh, pampered lifestyle and go from there. To me it almost stands out more when she finds things that her money wonât smooth over and is called on her removed attitude about me and âthemâ RE the trans community.
Yes - using her as a foil - I see that - doubt she intended it. I just find it so jarring to watch Caitlyn listening and sympathizing with a group of young trans teens regarding their very real struggles - and then get back in her chauffeur driven SUV - go back to her Malibu mansion - to meet with several design teams clamoring to help her decorate - because the existing furniture is actually from the last mansion and she wants to find her style as Caitlyn! She is beyond shallow and superficial. Perhaps she has brought some attention to trans issues - but beyond that - I do not see her making a lasting contribution.
I hate to say it, but I agree with what some of the most recent posters have been saying. To be honest, I really wonder what kind of help Caitlyn had in deciding to transition, one of the problems I think is she kind of abbreviated the process, she kind of cheated in a sense. It isnât because she had 100k in surgery and has professional makeup and wardrobe help, it is that I would bet good money she didnât do the other work. I realize being a celebrity things are different, but it was like she one day decided âI want to be Caitlynâ, so jumped into it, without doing the emotional work. Anyone who has been through transition will tell you that the physical, while so big, is tiny compared to the emotional, and I think Caitlyn didnât do the work, I really think she thought it was all about looking glam and so forth, and didnât work on who she really was, it is why she comes off so shallow. People have commented on her voice, and there is one clue, there are plenty of speech therapists who can help with making the voice sound better, but she obviously didnât do the work. She seems obsessed with what it means to be a woman, like when she talks about how it is validating as a woman to be noticed by a guy, her ideas are really shallow. My real problem is in doing this in the public view like this, she is making it seem like trans people are all these shallow narcissists who donât have a grasp on reality (more in that in a second). I honestly think that Jenny Boylan and her wife are doing a lot more good than Caitlyn, she is a voice of reason whereas Caitlyn comes off as a bubble headed, not so nice, narcissist. I caught when she went to the LGBT center in LA to talk to the young people there, and I got the impression it was like someone slumming or something and I wonder if she understands just how hard it is for those kids, and also quite honestly how the political positions Caitlyn holds and the people she supports have to do with how hard it is to get documentation that matches your gender (I was shocked that NJ not long ago finally allowed changing gender on driverâs licenses and I believe now even Birth certificates without the final surgery, it used to be you had to get the surgery to get it changed).
I honestly canât believe she went into going full time without even thinking about changing her official name and documents, that to me tells me there wasnât much planning behind this. If California takes so long (it is a lot easier in NYC), then that should have been planned out, a lot more then what makeup and dress she is going to wear.
It isnât that Caitlyn is any different, what she is expressing is common, there is this incredible rush when someone feels free to be themselves, and often it is pretty narcissistic and almost teenage like. And as Jenny Boylanâs wife put it, there also is this rush where the person in the happiness of finding themselves, is rushing forwar and totally losing those around them, not meaning to, but forgetting they are adjusting. Caitlyn is doing this in the public eye, usually this stuff happens in private, over time (Jenny Boylan wrote about it brilliantly in her memoir), and as a result you are seeing all the warts and wrinkles, seeing all this out in the open, and I really wonder if it is such a good thing. If in the end this really helps trans people, it will be worth it, but what I have been seeing now that I watch the shows looks a lot more like an exercise in ego and narcissism, and quite honestly Caitlyn comes off as she really doesnât truly grasp how different the way she is doing this is different from others, and how hard it is for others, it is one thing to nod when you hear a story and say "that is terribleâ, it is another to truly appreciate it. She lost me when she was basically questioning whether trans folks who use public assistance are doing so because they are lazy or donât want to work in another episode, it totally shows zero understanding of how hard it is for those who attempt this process, especially those who were already at the margins.
" I am tired of the professional hair and makeup, wardrobe assistant, personal assistants, etc. Every episode shows her sitting like a queen with her minions in attendance. It would ne more interesting and realistic to see her doing/struggling with her own hair and makeup"
What, she isnât doing it all herself? And here we were told how much she was going to enjoy doing all that girly stuff and learning how to do her hair and makeup. Why does this not surprise me?
Of course Caitlyn is pampered and rich and has things 99% of the population will never have. She did when she was Bruce. The Kardashians do, too. You arenât going to see an âaverageâ life from a celebrity or even a very wealthy non-celebrity, regardless of what marginalized groups they may also belong to (Beyonceâs life isnât the life of an average Black women. Christopher Reevesâ life wasnât the life of an average disabled man). Otoh, she opened herself up to brutal public criticism on a level most trans people wonât face (not that the risks and consequences that they face by being out are betterâthey may even be worse in some cases). Caitlyn isnât the average trans woman, because sheâs not an average person anyway. Sheâs going to be unrelatable and unable to relate on many things because of that, while still sharing some common ground of the âtrans woman experience.â I donât know what people were expecting to be different.
The point that many people are missing is that not only does Caitlyn nod and say âthatâs terribleâ when she hears stories but the audience does as well. For those of us tuning in who arenât as familiar with the issues there is new and important information being presented. She may be privileged and narcissistic and a now âLog Cabin Republicanâ but she is still using her situation and resources to get some of these stories and issues out there into public consciousness. One can say that Jenny Boyland is a better role model and spokes person (and she is getter her say here) but Jenny hasnât got her own show and hasnât chosen to put herself out there like this.
Caitlyn made a point a few episodes ago and was corrected several times on her syntax and the deeper meaning of that. She said, âtheyâre all so normalâ. Candis Cayne corrects her in the moment then brings it up later in a deeper conversation that Caitlyn wasnât including herself in the group of trans-women and was holding herself apart still. Even though Bruce and now Cait is in that whole reality TV celebrity lifestyle we can see that being trans isnât all sex shows and kinkiness and novelty. As a total outsider I am getting to see that âthe trans-lifestyleâ can be just like any other lifestyle excepting all the challenges around relationships with other people including family, employers and friends.
Bruce lived in a fish bowl of his own creation before and now Cait lives in that same fish bowl. I wouldnât wish that on anyone and I would guess that most trans people want to fit in not stand out any more and put themselves through that. I am willing to accept that Cait doesnât have to be perfect or be my favorite person in the world to be doing some good and presenting me with some things that I didnât know before.
I am learning a lot and getting over my own curiosity with all the dinner table talk over wine about the interplay between gender and sexual attraction. A common question is what kind of âequipmentâ do you have, who do you see yourself using it with and what are you? They really talk that out and Caitlynâs hesitance and discomfort with that I think mirrors some of the discomfort and curiosity of the larger audience. Those are questions that you wouldnât normally ask a person if you even knew someone to ask. Theyâre those âwhat do you wear under your kilt?â type of questions. Hearing them talk about those things, even if it is in Caitâs white on white house on the bluff over Malibu, has been instructional for me.
I agree - I had never heard of Jenny Boyland before and have found her to be very interesting. So the show works from that standpoint. Just disappointed by Caitlyn herself so far - not very likable - and I really donât see her connecting well with the trans teens she has been visiting and listening to.
The trans teens, I think, have much better resources available for sure. However, her show ends with lots of information about resources, support organizations and phone numbers to call if you are going through that yourself or know someone who is. She is providing air time to get those resources out there to the broader public. There may be kids or adults who live in middle America in places where support is less available but they have cable. They see that there is support out there. Caitlyn is not GIVING support herself. As was pointed out up thread she hasnât âdone the workâ yet. She is doing it before out eyes and bringing the viewing public along for the ride. It may be back-assward in some peopleâs view but she didnât have the luxury of not being in public during this time - she was already in public.
âAs a total outsider I am getting to see that âthe trans-lifestyleâ can be just like any other lifestyle excepting all the challenges around relationships with other people including family, employers and friends.â
I realize you didnât mean it, but using the term âtrans-lifestyleâ makes this sound like it is something someone does, like choosing to wear black, or choosing to live in a rural environment, or a city, or live in an apartment versus house, etc, and like when people called being gay a âlifestyle choiceâ, it takes away from what this is about. A M to F transwoman who wears jeans and t shirts and doesnât wear makeup is living a certain kind of lifestyle, someone who is more femme is another. The F to M who is into biker culture is leading one lifestyle, the F to M who is a forest ranger lives another oneâŠBeing transgender is more a path, a way to find oneself, it isnât a lifestyle choice,not really much of a choice for most people.
Actually, Caitlyn had the ability to not be public, while she wouldnât be able to totally escape the gossip rags and such, she also didnât need to do all the dramatic stuff she has done, the Vanity Fair spread, the tv show with all its reality show drama. While she obviously would not be able to escape the paparazzi and such, for obvious reasons, she could have given herself time to work through things and such. I have heard the arguments she chose to do what she did to control the message, but the problem is the message she is sending is based to a large extent on someone who is still very, very early in her process, and it makes it look like being a transgender person is this narcissistic journey of fab fashion, makeup and hair. To be honest, the real stars of the program I think are Jenny Boylan and though she only had a small time on the screen, her wife, plus I think that Candis Cayne also presents a bit of a different image. The African American woman at the LGBT center also was a great person, as were some of the kids voices talking about their problems.
I donât know what kind of person Caitlyn will become, people change and grow through this process, but I am not convinced that the way this show is being done is necessarily educating anyone about the issues most trans people go through, or that it will change many peopleâs minds, and I think it could have a negative affect in some ways. I am not as concerned about the fact that she has resources 99%+ of trans folks donât have as I am with how little quite honestly she seems to have done on herself before jumping in feet first, it is kind of like going deep sea diving without knowing how to swim.That lack of self knowledge I think is causing her to come off the way she does, as some well off dilettante playing dress up whose privilege has isolated herself from the reality of what all this means. I think she knows the fears and pain most people going down this path experience, and I donât think anyone, including Caitlyn, does this on a whim or trivial reasons, but because she hasnât done the work, makes it seem like it is to me. I really hope that Jenny Boylan and other trans folks are highlighted and their stories come through, because I think the real value of the show will be in that, if it being Caitlyn Jenner and her celebrity that gets people to watch, but they see the other voices, the ones who struggle, who donât have the means and whatnot that Caitlyn does, then it will be worth it.
I put it in quotes because I get that it isnât really a âlifestyleâ it is just being who you are. That WAS my point - that it is just another way of being a regular person and not some âlifestyleâ like always being on in P-Town or something.
Gotcha, thanks for clarifying:)
I am wondering about this phrase âdo the workâ. I get that it is best to have some therapeutic process before and through transition and that a lot of introspection is involved. What Iâm wondering is why not having âdone the workâ should disqualify her from telling the story of her process? Do we expect her to be a fully fledged, perfectly self-actualized person? Are any of us really qualifies to represent an entire group perfectly? It seems to me that a lot of people are going through this and many of them have issues, are screwed up for family reasons, have been subject to abuse, have depression, or maybe just arenât nice people. It seems to be exclusive to say that one has to do some particular work or be in a special designated place on the ladder to self-actualization before they should have a voice. Jenny B. is a wonderfully articulate professional person who is adding a great deal to the show but not every single person has to be like that before they can be out there. I thought the point of the show was to bring the viewers along as Caitlyn does some of that âworkâ and learning and growing.
People might say I didnât âdo the workâ either, because I wasnât in therapy prior to transitioning â it was simply something I finally decided I was able to do, had to do, and did. I never, ever felt that I had to learn how to âbeâ or live as a woman, other than through experience. And itâs been much easier and more natural for me than trying to live as a man all those years. None of which has ever stopped me from commenting on trans issues here! Although I have always tried to make clear that I speak only for myself.
So I donât particularly like that phrase, or the implication that one must prepare for transition in the same way one prepares to climb Mt. Everest.
Iâve known Jenny Boylan for a long time, and respect her, but there have been plenty of occasions when I roll my eyes and sigh at things she writes. There are many trans people who dislike her rather intensely, and think sheâs a relentless self-publicizer who gets way more than her share of attention. Which doesnât mean she should refrain from speaking out, but doesnât make her a spokesperson for trans people either. The same goes for Caitlyn.
I guess as a cis woman who never felt like anything other than a woman I still know that there are many. many ways to manifest femininity. Many feminists frown on women who primp and alter their looks in any way. Many uber primpers frown on those who donât - and the list goes on . . . There is no one way to BE a woman so I hate to get into judgements about whether or not she is doing that part right. In So. Cal (and some pockets where I live) her look and routine is how itâs done.
It did strike me that part of her quandary is that her previous social circle consisted of her extended family and her male friendships and acquaintances that were based around hobbies. She talks about that with the model helicopter thing. She is kind of at sea right now (in the show at least) where her family isnât around her in an immediate sense and her male buddies have pulled back to a degree. She also said that she wasnât entirely comfortable and at ease about how to relate to them and how much to push out there. Who she has left are her âteamâ of make-up, hair and personal assistant. She talked about having been so uncomfortable in her skin before and so introverted that she didnât have a big base of friends. In that case if I could afford a personal assistant and hair dresser to just be there for company I might have one too. Itâs sad and certainly not ideal but it IS an example of how family and social relationships can change and a person can lose their network when they need it most.
I can empathize with her. I had two close male friends at the time of my transition ten years ago, one of whom had been my friend for 33 years and the other for 30 (ever since the first week of my first years of college and law school, respectively). They were my co-âbest menâ when I was married; I was âbest manâ for one of them (the other never married); I visited both of them several times at their childhood homes in New Orleans and East Lansing, respectively, and knew their parents well when they were living (both their mothers were especially kind to me, particularly during and after my frequent hospitalizations for Crohnâs Disease over the years, because they knew mine had died when I was 20); and I kept in frequent and consistent touch with both even though one never lived in the same city as I did.
One disappeared from my life after I told him about my transition ten years ago, and the other was ostensibly accepting, but faded away â itâs been several years since Iâve heard from him. If they no longer wanted to be my friends and stay in touch, then I didnât want to embarrass myself by pursuing them. But I still miss both of them, and think about them. Especially because I never had a large number of good friends either, probably for much the same reason as Caitlyn.
I donât think doing the work necessarily means therapy, to me it means the process of getting yourself ready to live life as the gender you feel yourself to be, and there are a lot of things involved there, and for each person it is different. One of the wisest pieces of advice I heard on the subject was in the idea of creating a support base around you, people who you believed you could rely on, and that part of âdoing the workâ was working with people to accept the new reality about you, and it made a lot of sense to me. having even a small group of people around you can make such a difference (I would guess that Candis Cayne and to a certain extent Jenny Boylan would count). More importantly, it is also in advance learning from others what it means to transition, what to expect, and exploring who you are and such. I realize that Caitlyn, being a public person, didnât have the freedom that others might have, like being part of a support group, or having friends and exploring their new identity before going full time, but I was really surprised that before going full time she hadnât even really thought about id,changing her name and so forth, that is something that is talked about so much. The other thing about doing the work is becoming comfortable in your own skin and figuring out things about yourself before going full time, it is a lot easier to do that before you have taken that step, transitioning to full time status and having that confidence is huge, once you have transitioned and then trying to figure it out can be awkward and lead to issues, some of which I see with Caitlyn.
One of the things I question with her is that she still seems to be in the mode of thinking that the physical is the most important part, the presentation, so she for example spent a lot of money on plastic surgery (which obviously did a lot towards making her look more feminine, she now looks like a lot of woman her age in Hollywood lol), probably on hair removal I would guess as well, and obviously she puts a lot of emphasis on clothing and makeup and hair, which given it is Hollywood, not surprisingâŠbut observing her on the show, I think that may have overshadowed the other aspects. It isnât uncommon, the holy grail for a lot of people transitioning is simply to be able to present as their new self and fit in, so the physical stuff, about being able to ânot get readâ as a trans person, plays a big roleâŠbut it also is a mistake, because the emotional side, being able to deal with people as themselves, make friends, socialize, and do so with confidence is a large part of that, tooâŠand with Caitlyn, she is doing that as she goes, and it is part of the awkwardness others have commented on I suspect.
As far as Caitlyn being a spokesperson for the transgender community, I think that no one person could do that, if for the very reason that the transgender community is not homogeneous, so who would she be speaking for? Well off transgender people? White transgender people? Older transgender people? In reality, of course, she is speaking for herself. That said, though, there is another factor here, which is perceptions, and perceptions often are more powerful than reality. By her doing her coming out so publicly (whatever her reasons for doing it), with the Vanity Fair article then the tv show, to a lot of people that is what she is going to be, whether it is realistic or not. By choosing to do it so publicly, especially with the tv show, she is going to be taken as that (reminds me of when Charles Barkely, when he was playing, saying he was no role modelâŠhe may not have wanted to be, but the reality is his position as a well known player made him one). It can lead to false impressions, like that transgender M to Fs are these narcissistic, self absorbed , almost fetishistic creatures, or that she is some rich dilettante playing at being a woman, and for better or worse, given that she may be the one trans person they have any exposure to, they may not understand this is a journey and she is still a very raw product, but rather 'this is what they are all like" and be turned off. It is why I felt when I heard about this that she was making a mistake making the big splash in Vanity fair or especially with the TV program, that it was too soon, that if she gave herself time, she would be a lot more effective, if her goal was to use her journey to help others. I do like that we are seeing something other than fashion shoots and glamorous lunches, that they do show other trans folks well away from Caitlynâs experience, that there is an attempt to educate.
This feels bad to say but Iâm going to say it anyway for a reality check. To the general public who have never really given much thought to trans issues and may have a very cartoonish idea of what being trans means based on cross-dressing cabaret and footage of Pride type events, Caitlyn and the group that she has assembled seem way more âregularâ and ânormalâ than I think a lot of people would expect. You may think that she is out there and will create a bad impression, but I think she may actually be bringing the image of trans women more towards the âregular personâ place.
On the show in a discussion about dating one of the women said that when she tells a date or potential date that she is trans more often than not it immediately jumps to a âcan we have kinky sexâ place. Seeing these women just move through life a bit as women is educational for me and I imagine others who have a more sensational image in their mind from pop culture. When I watch and I can say, âthereâs just a group of women sitting around chit chatting over wineâ I would call that a success. Iâm just waiting for them to have a Pampered Chef party or something.