Let me guess - This is the way a 65 year old woman should dress…
http://www.ioffer.com/i/ruth-buzzi-signed-autographed-photo-laugh-in-509763330
A Ruth Buzzi signed photo is worth $75??
Jym, since it is ioffer, the photo must be a fake. 
"Let me guess - This is the way a 65 year old woman should dress…
http://www.ioffer.com/i/ruth-buzzi-signed-autographed-photo-laugh-in-509763330 "
Wait a minute, what’s wrong with that? It’s a nice jacket, vintage shoes. Way dressed up for us in the PNW.
Post #163, I look like that sometimes. Ok I lied, most of the time.
I think the outfit is just fine, so if you dress like that, better than looking like a hooker. In fact, the only thing wrong with Ruth’s picture is the bad haircut and the sad face. I hope you don’t have a sad face like that. And bad hair grows out.
@eyeamom-
‘Firstly, I couldn’t care less either way - that entire clan is a bunch of narcissistic dopes. But I am curious - why MUST everyone accept this choice? Isn’t the idea of liberalism to be accepting of all opinions - even if you don’t agree with them’
That is a specious argument, eyemamom, and one I usually hear it from the Fox News crowd. First of all, as with the right wing claim that being gay is either a mental illness (the wonderful Catholic “objectively disordered”…objective to whom?) or a choice, the reality is that the only choice transgender people face is whether to live their life as a lie or try and live as they feel they must. Among other things, there is a lot of evidence from science (you know, those idiots who can’t understand the earth is 6000 years old and made in 6 days) that gender identity is formed in utero by a complex series of hormone washes, that if they don’t happen a certain away, can affect gender identity (experiments with mamalian fetuses in utero, blocking the cycle, has show behavior typical of that of the opposite sex).
More importantly, even if it is a choice, by what right does anyone have to criticize someone else and not expect blowback? Being accepting of an opinion does not mean you can’t express your own opinion, or more importantly, show that the opinion is distasteful. One of the core beliefs of liberalism is in the right to live your life as you see fit and of respecting the right of the individual to live as they wish and defending that right.Why should someone’s life be subject to the options of others, why should your or anyone else’s opinions decide how someone else should live? The reason that people speak out against those criticizing people like Jenner are because those criticizing her, also are the same people who make transgender people’s lives miserable, mocking them ,often in public (as many of the critics of Jenner are doing), or worse, as in more than a few places in this country, make it impossible to be treated legally as the opposite sex. In one case from Texas (where else?) a college professor died, he was married legally to a M to F transgender woman, but she was refused the right of inheritance automatically given a wife, benefits and such, because according to Texas law (didn’t matter that the state they were married in, a m to f was considered a woman there) she wasn’t legally his wife, she was a man…other places you can’t change basic documents, and it was only recently that NJ, the state I live in, allowed trans people to change their driver’s licenses without getting SRS (a lot of trans people never get the final surgery, either because it is too expensive, they medically can’t do the surgery, or just don’t feel they need to, NJ used to require proof of surgery, now the affadavit of a medical professional is enough I believe). You and others can have the opinion that Jenner and other like her are sinful, wrong, perverted, you name it, but others can fight that opinion with facts, calling out the lies and stupidity (often based on claims of biblical morality, which is quite a stretch, given the bible says zippo about being transgendered), but also, like opinions that are racist, fail in the face of facts,or are otherwise distasteful to most people, are going to get criticized and made fun of. Liberalism says people have right to opinions, but it also says people have the right to criticize them (liberalism, too, unlike many conservatives, say that when it comes to actions, opinions, to quote a popular expression, are like butts, there are a lot of them in the world, and many are full of doodoo…in other words, useless).
More importantly, you and your type have every right to criticize Jenner, but you have no protection from those calling you on your nastiness. The religious right types are famous for this, they say mean, nasty things, then cry on Fox News or on right wing radio or blog sites, saying how their voices as Christians are being suppressed, when the reality is they are being called on their beliefs and opinions. Would you say the same thing about those who would say let’s say blacks are all criminals, or Italians are all gangsters, or Jews are all (fill in the blank with your favorite anti semitic thought)? You can say what you want, believe what you want but liberalism also says you have every right to be criticized for what you say.
Tom Paine, one of the founders of this country in many ways (someone the religious right especially would love to leave out, his words were instrumental in the founding of this country, yet he hated religious, especially the rigid orthodoxy we call the religious right today). He wrote something profound, he said that tolerance and intolerance were both bad things, basically the same thing. He said an intolerant person doesn’t like something, and feels they have the right to stop it. He said the tolerant person likewise judges, but has the ‘magnanimity’ to ‘allow’ the person to do what they are. The problem (according to Paine) is that both thought they had the right to judge in the first place.
“More importantly, you and your type have every right to criticize Jenner, but you have no protection from those calling you on your nastiness. The religious right types are famous for this, they say mean, nasty things, then cry on Fox News or on right wing radio or blog sites, saying how their voices as Christians are being suppressed, when the reality is they are being called on their beliefs and opinions.”
“You and your type”? Bringing in the Fox news association? Four paragraphs of scathing commentary just because she said, “‘Firstly, I couldn’t care less either way - that entire clan is a bunch of narcissistic dopes. But I am curious - why MUST everyone accept this choice? Isn’t the idea of liberalism to be accepting of all opinions - even if you don’t agree with them’”
Talk about a lot of bizarre generalizations going on, and being impolite. What is it with people that if someone makes one comment, it’s one of those hot button comments that instantly identify them as being one of THOSE people, who therefore must be x, y, z and the other. And therefore you are entitled to say any rude thing that you want to them. It’s just a difference of opinion, and you really don’t need to classify them as intolerant, nasty, and equate them to believing an entire litany of things that you must have heard on Fox news. Really. People can disagree without being rude.
@ musicprint Wow…and all in just one post…
Yup…I’d say that sums up liberalism and it’s live and let live approach rather nicely…thanks for making it so plain. What is it ‘some’ like to say…haters gotta hate.
I love irony…it’ makes my day. Thanks
Someone asked how someone could be married for 20 years, then decide to transition, how they could have kids, etc. The answer is in some ways the same way that gay men and gay women get married, have kids, then end up leaving later in life. A therapist I worked with for years was a gay women, but she had been married, had 4 kids, and once they were pretty much grown, couldn’t take it any more, and left her marriage. Why? In large part, there was a lot of pressure to be ‘normal’ back then, and there were other issues at play, wanting to please her parents, a lot of things. With transgender people, there can be a lot of reasons , from what I can tell transgender people are as varied as anything else. The stereotypical transgender stories you hear, about the kid who knew from childhood, had this burning desire, you know the narrative, is one story like that, some of them are the kids who today have parents willing to help them live as they feel they need to. Others know, but try to fit in, conform, they find someone they fall in love with, and struggle to do the right thing, they marry, have kids. Many of them might have secret lives, live the life of a secret crossdresser, use that to kind of make themselves feel better, then at some point may finally realize it isn’t working. This is sometimes called type I and type II transgender people (or was last I read about it), the second is also known as late onset. Some people bury it deep as kids from what i can tell (the way that children will bury abuse, only to have it surface later or sideways), and it comes out later. One of the things about people is we have this tremendous capability to bend ourselves to other’s wills, to bury who we are. How many people do what their families want to, and end up miserable? How many people stay in loveless marriages because they don’t believe in divorce or think it is 'better for the children?".
The therapist I worked with worked with people with gender issues, and the reason therapists are there is not to try and ‘cure’ them, unless they have some sort of real mental illness that makes them think they are transgender, the purpose of therapy is to help them achieve what they need, and to work out any issues that may block them. From what I know, a lot of transgender people have other issues to deal with, drug and alcohol problems are not uncommon (self medding for the pain I would guess), you don’t bury yourself for so many years without consequences. Then, too, there are the issues with dealing with rejection, parents and relatives and friends who can be cruel, fears of the workplace, fears of fitting in, and also working through the doubts, too. I have known some transgender people, and you don’t just wake up one morning and say “Gee, I am fine, I am a woman (or man), time to go out and make the donuts” The stories I was told and know of are that it is natural to question oneself, to ask 'can I be crazy", to be afraid, this is not like getting a new hairstyle or a nose job. My friends described it as a process, a journey, of figuring things out and yes, getting your footing. On top of everything else, if you spent X years socializing, being forced into the role, whatever, of a man or woman, then decide you aren’t that, you are making up for lost time. When women are growing up, they are socialized by being around women in their family, and friends, and they learn a lot of the social clues and such of being a woman (as do men growing up), when you are transgender, you have to learn that, the social clues that make a big difference in being perceived as a man or woman. Therapists help with all that, some people need more help than others, but the point of therapy is to help the person make their own decisions from what I know. Actually, the therapist I worked with said that with her transgender patients, she doesn’t make a diagnoses or tell them what they are, they figure it out, with her help, and she helps them come up with what they need to do. She said a therapist who told a patient they were transgender was doing the wrong thing, what they should be doing is getting the patient to the point where they understand what they are and have the strength to figure out what they do.
Btw, as far as getting married let’s say as a man, and having kids, then transitioning, a lot of M to F transgender folks end up being with women even after transition, and others may be bisexual, so being attracted to a woman before transition shouldn’t be a surprise, sexual attraction and gender identity are very different things.
Why can I only like your post one time, dietz?
What a lot of hate spewing, for just a couple of rather mundane sentences.
Sigh. I guess I'd just like to lock Jenner in a room with Meryl Streep, Helen Mirren, Sally Field and Susan Sarandon so they can teach her how a woman in her sixties can be glamorous and gorgeous without looking like she's ■■■■■■■■ for customers on 8th Avenue or advertising for a plastic surgeon with a cheesy lingerie sideline. But if Caitlin's "true self" is to be just another sexualized product in the Kardashian panoply, she's succeeded.
It is rather ironic. Many of us women as we have gotten older, have gotten more accepting of how we look, even while getting fatter and more wrinkled. It’s not so important to look good, and we can still be happy. Needing to look as attractive as possible and being insecure about it is the curse of young women. I feel like poor Caitlin has missed out on much of the joy of aging as a woman, where you don’t have to try to look young and beautiful anymore. She should have done this decades ago. Now with the tv show and how publicly she came out, she’s going to spend her life trying to keep looking beautiful. And that’s a curse, not a pleasure of being a woman.
Kind of like this? Oh . . . what do you know . . . she actually does not look that dissimilar to Caitlyn.
http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/susan-sarandon/images/34711488/title/vanity-fair-2012-photo
Wow, I go away for a bit and come back to a pretty vile thread.
Very sad. I hope she’s happy. I wish she and every person wears what they darn well want. Whatever makes them feel good!
Good grief. Some people care way too much about what other people do with their lives. Live and let live. Don’t like someone? Don’t waste your time on them. Personally, I’ve never watched anything with Jenner but still wish her all the best- as I do everyone who seems to be at least a decent human being.
I wish her happiness 
romani. Caitlin has put herself out there very publicly. She has left nothing to the imagination. She is monetizing her transition, and performing in a reality show. It is unimportant to me, because I have never even seen her or the Kardashians, though in general, I think reality shows are horrible. However, not everyone is going to say purely glowing comments about what she is doing, but it doesn’t mean that they don’t wish her all the best—and that they are vile. This kind of stuff is tame. People comment on the most trivial of things, here on cc, that’s for sure. It doesn’t mean that they aren’t decent human beings. When you put yourself out there in the most public of ways, people are going to comment. Just wait until the reality show.
"thought the cover photo was ludicrous. What 65 year-old woman would be caught dead dressed like that and in that pose? (As my son said,“So it’s been Jenner’s lifelong dream to look like a hooker?”) Apparently Caitlin has acquired her sense of taste from the Kardashian girls. "
Seriously? That’s simply an old-school Hollywood glamour shot. Tastefully done. This is in no way comparable to the trashy, overly made up, pour-me-into-a-dress-two-sizes-too-small Kardashian look. I think you’re letting your discomfort with the trans aspect blind you.
"Many of us women as we have gotten older, have gotten more accepting of how we look, even while getting fatter and more wrinkled. It’s not so important to look good, and we can still be happy. Needing to look as attractive as possible and being insecure about it is the curse of young women. I feel like poor Caitlin has missed out on much of the joy of aging as a woman, where you don’t have to try to look young and beautiful "
Yes, a lot of dumpy women give up and cloak it in a halo because it’s easier to give up than to take care of yourself.
Can’t she be like other women and simply DESIRE to look beautiful / attractive instead of having it cloaked in “needing to”? She’s never had the opportunity to get dressed up the way we all have. How should she have presented herself? Like your average dumpy 65 yo woman with a spare tire, outfit from Chico’s and comfort shoes?
My wife and I were inadvertently watching some live TV last night for a few minutes (usually it’s Netflix or DVR) and this story was on. We are liberal people who value a person’s right to their journey in life, but my wife remarked that it seemed “so commercial.” Thank you busdriver11 for the phrase “monetizing her transition,” because that captures what has made me uncomfortable about Caitlin.
I had previously thought that the Bruce/Caitlin public transition would be helpful in shaping public opinion about transgender issues, and maybe it will on balance. I guess I’d like “more Jenner and less Kardashian.” The over-mediated life seems to cheapen everything it touches.
Again, PR 101, folks. You control your own exposure before you let others do it for you. If Caitlyn’s first public appearance was running to the grocery store in sweatpants and a ponytail like the rest of us everyday schlebs, that would be the “image seen around the world.” The ship of having the option to privately transition sailed a looooong time ago - likely even before the Kardashians - because Bruce was a world-famous, instantly recognizable athlete. Given that, I see no reason whatsoever she shouldn’t have “dolled it up” for her first appearance.
Come on. I’m not in any kind of public eye nor will I ever be (knock on wood) but if I were in her shoes and had access to pretty dresses, makeup artists, etc - why wouldn’t I use them, just for fun? This is new to her in a way it isn’t new to us. It’s no big deal for me to go put on lipstick and high heels. It’s a big deal for her to do so. (And now cue the usual I-don’t-ever-wear-lipstick-or-do-anything-girly-because-I’m-over-50-so-why-bother sanctimony.)