<p>[The</a> Sorry Lives and Confusing Times of Today’s Young Men | Philadelphia Magazine Articles](<a href=“http://www.phillymag.com/articles/the-sorry-lives-and-confusing-times-of-today-s-young-men/]The”>http://www.phillymag.com/articles/the-sorry-lives-and-confusing-times-of-today-s-young-men/)</p>
<p>Interesting article about the “boys in the basement” (or on the couch).</p>
<p>Thanks. That was a good read, with some interesting theories that could help me understand my own kids.</p>
<p>I know many young men who are hardworking, live on their own, and dedicated to successful careers and lives. What do they all have in common? Fathers who serve as positive role models. It’s not the economy – it’s the too frequent absence of fathers.</p>
<p>Razorsharp, I have to disagree with that theory. I have been surprised over the years how many Marines I’ve met who had terrible or absent fathers. Obviously, something else is going on.</p>
<p>I’ll admit to not reading the entire article, but I’m going to disagree that it’s always the lack of a positive male role model. </p>
<p>I’ve got a 21yo at home. College wasn’t a successful venture (we had doubts so started at cc…good move). He works two part time jobs to make up 40hrs/week (FT is hard to come by w/o a degree). He is required to put a good chunk of his salary into savings, helps around the house, and video games aren’t an issue. His father (my husband) is a great role model, never took money from his folks, and we live within our means. He is working with S1 to decide on an apprentice or trade program to work towards a living wage and become independent. S1 pays his own insurance, cel phone, and bought his own used car. </p>
<p>It’s not what we had envisioned, and we are helping him reset goals so he’s not on our couch in 5yrs. Not every young man living at home is a lazy gamer, looking for easy sex, with an absent father.</p>
<p>As the mom of two sons, I find this a great read. Still processing. Will come back and see what others say.</p>
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<p>The Marines is an institution that is based primarily on male leadership. There are positive male role models everywhere in the Marines. The Marines is the kind of institution that can fix problems caused by not growing up with good fathers in the home. </p>
<p>It would not surprise me if Marines who had terrible fathers go on to be better fathers than were their fathers.</p>
<p>A lot of them were also wasting time playing video games in top notch universities.</p>
<p>Has anyone else read the comments? Disturbing.</p>
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<p>Just want to clarify that these are “good Marines”. If I remember right, you’re pro-military. One of my sons appears to be looking at the Marines as an escape. I just hope he can come back and enter society as a contributing member. If he decides to make a career out of the military, I guess that would be o.k., too. You just want your kids to be happy. Living in the basement can’t make these kids truly happy.</p>
<p>I really hate reading articles like this, that attempt to look at complex situations and sensationalize things rather then look at the real causes. Almost everything in this article seems more sensationalized pap to make a stir then look at real answers, and a lot of this is political crap</p>
<p>-The whole ‘feminization’ of schools, of boys not being allowed to be boys, is mostly Bill O’Reilly territory, not reality. There are grains of truth in what they claim, that schools these days deal with difficult students by claiming they are ADHD and hitting them with Ritalin, but to claim that as a major cause is crap, or that schools “cater to women”. Among other things, women still face tremendous gender related bias in the schools, with assumptions about, for example, their ability to do math and science (anyone remember Larry Summers, one of the chief architects of the current financial mess, when president of Harvard saying women lacked certain things to do well in the sciences?). </p>
<p>This reminds me of claims that affirmative action “wiped out” white men, took away all their opportunities, and that is hogwash as well, no study of it has shown this demonstrably. </p>
<p>-The line about almost 15% of women id’s as bisexual or gay as opposed to about 6% of men and claiming it is “because men are losers” is absolutely disgusting, and also patently false. Women traditionally have been a lot more open with their sexuality, studies of women in prior generations showed the same thing, and part of this is it is still a lot easier for women to admit to being gay or bi, even in a private survey, then it is for men, even with all the changes that have happened.Put it this way, among straight men, the thought of two women together is a fantasy, two men together is a nightmare, and that is still the culture of many men…claiming it is because men are losers is like claiming a woman is gay because she hasn’t met the right man <em>gag</em></p>
<p>-I also am leery of claims it is because of porn, because of video games, where men live a fantasy life and find it preferable to a real one. While there is decided truth to that (it is called living up in one’s head), and don’t doubt that there is a type of slacker like this out there, as portrayed by Seth Rogan and others, I don’t think those are necessarily an explanation either, it is too simple, it is like those that blamed rape on legalizing porn and sex education. </p>
<p>-Economics does play a role, when I got out of college almost 30 years ago I had a decent paying job (not great, but decent), no student debt, and was able to afford my own apartment and live on my own. The cost of college since then has skyrocketed (tuition, room and board at the school I went to, a top private university, was 10k or so a year, these days it is well over 60k, and typical salaries haven’t gone up that way). </p>
<p>Back then, if you had a tech degree, you could find a decent paying entry level job, they were out there. Today, thanks to the H1 visa program, a lot of what would have been entry level jobs have either been outsourced or insourced to cheap labor from places like India, and that is a reality. Other companies want only experienced people, the training programs and the like have died off. </p>
<p>-I don’t know what percentage of young women live at home, but I also know a lot of the young woman that work at my company in NYC…many of them do live on their own (not all, though) and a lot of that IME is they are getting significant help from parents and such. There has been a lot of talk about that here in NYC, where rents are sky high, and almost every article talks about the kids in part living off their parents, and the articles have said that one of the reasons is parents seem more willing to help their daughters like that, and i suspect that is part of the answer.</p>
<p>At least here in NYC, there is another answer, it is known as stacking, which means basically having a lot of roomates in a small apartment. It is illegal, but I have relatives who have ties to the real estate industry in NYC, and it is common…and from what I have been told, landlords are more willing to do that with young women than men, they feel safer, maybe figuring putting a bunch of young guys together like that is dangerous.</p>
<p>Neither of them explains the whole thing, obviously.</p>
<p>-I think some of it is cultural, quite honestly. Young women seem to be aware that women have not always had it easy, that it is only in fairly recent times that they even had the opportunity to do the things they do, and parents emphasize to young women they need to get out there and hustle, young women are aware of it. Yes, there are slackers among young women, but a lot of them know they have opportunities they never had in prior generations and they are pushing into them, there is a common culture of success out there.</p>
<p>Conversely, I am not sure young men have changed, I think it is the world that changed. It wasn’t all that many years ago that a young guy who drank and partied his way through school, could count on getting a decent paying job even with less then stellar credentials, especially if he was an athlete or came from certain frat houses or societies or whatever. Legacy admits to major colleges, often dumb as a brick, got gentleman C’s and were ushered into things. On a lower level, because of school connections or simply being a white male coming out of school, because jobs were there, and because of all kinds of hidden biases, they could be something of a slacker and get a job, today it isn’t that easy. I was talking to a friend of mine, who is head of one of our businesses, and he talked about going to an elite LAC in New England, had a 4.0 average and so forth, and saw dumb jocks from the football team being recruited heavily for high level financial firms…this was large scale, but on more modest level scales a kid with C’s from a state school who was in the greek system or sports could expect to find something, often because of doing those things, I saw that with my own eyes or from talking to people who did it that way.</p>
<p>Part of the bitterness I have seen is based on realizing that that just didn’t exist any more, it is like blue collar workers who once could count on coming out of high school and getting a decent paying job with benefits, and as that disappeared, wondered why, and often blamed the wrong thing for that happening (mostly, because many of those jobs went offshore or to very cheap labor rate places). </p>
<p>That assumed privilege simply isn’t there any more</p>
<p>And yes, young men are competing against young women, and finding out that they lose out (despite claims of the Bill O’Reilly’s of the world) because the young women have worked harder, and I see this all the time, I am a hiring manager so i know what is out there. It isn’t that women are unfairly being hired, it is more like for the first time employers are hiring more fairly IME, that they don’t as often happened in the past give a job to a young guy who may be less qualified then a woman going for the same job. Like I said, I deal with hiring decisions, have for years, and I can tell you the bias towards men was quite common back in the ‘dark age’ when I got out of school, and it isn’t there today.</p>
<p>-Some of it is the nature of parenting IMO (and that is all it is), parents often have raised kids, especially boys, with a culture of where they don’t have to work. Even back in the dark ages of my youth, watching friend’s houses, the daughters often had responsibilities around the house where the boys didn’t, and what I see (not in all cases, obviously) is that in some ways that has pushed forward, that girls kind of are nudged and taught responsibility and young boys are kind of coddled in a sense, different rules, whatever.</p>
<p>There is a couple on the street where I live that has two kids, a 14 year old girl and a 15 year old boy, and I see some of this play out (they are both nice kids, don’t get me wrong). The parents complain that the boy isn’t working hard enough, spends too much time with videogames…I know them well enough, and the boy is basically allowed to get away with that behavior while the girl isn’t, I kind of wonder if that isn’t parent dynamics playing out, where the mom has higher expectations of a daughter then the father had for the son. </p>
<p>Overall I think there is some truth that for a lot of these kids, they never really had to struggle, never really faced a reality, because parents were always there to pick up the pieces, and it shows. </p>
<p>In one sense, I am glad my S chose the path he is on, of having a passion for music, with that parents can’t grease the skids, the only way you make it is by working your tail off, because things like auditions to youth orchestras and programs is brutally competitive, plus from a young age you become aware of how hard it is to do…</p>
<p>I think part of this ironically is the ‘culture of success’ that is out there, where there is this idea to try and fail is a bad thing, so kids are guided into things where they can’t/won’t fail and I think that is part of it. Failing is part of life, if you fall while trying to walk you get back up, if you try something that is difficult and fail you learn to deal with that and the aftermath…many kids especially boys are being raised with the idea that failing at something is the end of your life…and I think they come out of school and take that with them, they are looking for the ‘safe thing’ and don’t find it, can’t find it, out of fear. </p>
<p>I don’t think any one of these is the root cause in itself, but I think the sum of them describes the situation. </p>
<p>One of the problems with statistics is they don’t look at the details; for example, of those living with their parents, how many of them did the right thing, got into a good college, got good grades and are out there humping it but having a hard time? I would be willing to bet if you compared stats to maybe 10-12 years ago, the numbers would be a lot less, and a lot of that is because it was better job wise back then. I think there is a percentage of young men , maybe a significant one, who are immature and so forth, but I have seen far too many hardworking, good kids out there to make me think young men have changed that much, I think it is that changing times and a bad economy have caught up to them.</p>
<p>I also see a lot of immature jerks among those who do get jobs and live on their own, having been around young investment bankers and traders and such for many years now, all I can tell you is a lot of them, who have great educations and so forth, making good money, are as immature as the slacker in his mom’s basement, in their own way, they may be out on their own, but they are way, way immature, they are arrogant beyond belief and quite frankly, if they are our best and brightest, God help us…</p>
<p>on the other hand, maybe it is just age, I wonder what people thought of me at that age…:). </p>
<p>One thing to keep in mind, it is also age and perspective. I remember reading in William Manchester’s “The Glory and the Dream” , a fantastic social history of the US, and reading about the young people in the 1930’s, their struggles with finding work, ending up riding the rails to try and find something, anything, and reading contemporary descriptions of them as lazy, indolent, unwilling to work hard, disrespectful,sexually licentious, the ruination of the country…and this dissolute youth became what today we lionize as ‘The Greatest Generation’.</p>
<p>Musicprnt, I disagree with you on at least one issue. The public schools in some areas are absolutely feminized. I’ve posted repeatedly about my own son’s experiences, but I can’t see how anyone would think that schools aren’t feminized when there are so few male teachers. We are both in NYC and I’m surprised that this hasn’t been your experience. There are very, very few male teachers in the grades prior to high school and it definitely has an impact.</p>
<p>I think musicprnt hits all the points I would make and more. </p>
<p>Zoos–when weren’t most teachers women? I’d say my kid ran into more male teachers in elementary school and even middle school than were around when I was a kid, by far! having a female teacher is not “feminizing”; it’s been the norm forever. I’m just glad to see that these days there are men willing to go into this profession, just as there are now male nurses when they werent before.</p>
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<p>Does this author even know what feminism is? Most feminists want equality-so that both genders are treated equally. And government subsidized BC is a lie; if anything, it’s more a debate over the interpretation of the First amendment. So many reducto ad absurdums (or reducto ad facismarxiscommunisnazism here).</p>
<p>Yes, alternative teaching methods need to be found for boys but the good ol boy club doesn’t exist as much anymore. Good paying blue collar jobs are unlikely to come back. Adapt.</p>
<p>musicprnt, The Glory and the Dream is my all-time favorite book on history. Read it in HS and about ten times since. </p>
<p>I’ve read the article and also found the comments rather disturbing, though I found the article interesting (if a bit glib on some issues) and worthy of discussion with my younger S, at least to get some of the issues and expectations out on the table before he graduates in three semesters (G-d willing). </p>
<p>I have one son who graduated last spring, got married in August and who is a fully self-supporting software engineer. He turned 22 a few weeks ago. Transition has been pretty seamless. There are things he is still clueless about, but as he says, he and DIL are both absent-minded sorts, but about different things. They say that between the two of them, they manage to cover the bases fairly well. They are also comfortable talking to us about financial planning, insurance, buying a car, etc. DH and I did not have those kinds of parental resources when we got married (at age 22) and figured things out completely on our own, with our parents’ example as an object lesson in what NOT to do. </p>
<p>Our younger S is a junior, has been struggling with depression issues since his long-time GF broke up with him freshman year. Also has some exec function/ADD/inattentive issues that are still causing problems. He has good goals in mind and is working towards them, but does not always have the oomph to accomplish them at the level of which he is capable. He is a terrific human being, has a lot of the intangibles, really wants to marry and have a family, does not spend hours playing video games. (Still too much time online, though, IMHO.) He is likely to be coming back home to the DC area after graduation, mainly because that’s where the jobs are for what he wants to do (though many of them require grad school). It’s expensive here and it will be tough to find a place he can afford, even with roommates.</p>
<p>Am trying to find ways to support his dreams but get him tuned into what he needs to do to launch next year. DH is of the opinion that S2 should not move home. I’m thinking it may be better to get on his feet financially and get some $$ in the bank – but if he’s home, I am concerned that he might think he could take his sweet time about landing a job that will enable him to be self-supporting.</p>
<p>His W/S job this year is tutoring 2nd and 3rd graders in reading. The kids love having him around – and he has always been good with kids (was a camp counselor for several years in HS). Who knows if this could become a Plan B for him.</p>
<p>“The sad fact is, women may have doomed their own hopes by being so successful.”</p>
<p>Only if they hoped to be with men who have a pathological need to be “ahead” of women. If those guys are the only option on the table, women will choose to stay single, and I can’t view it as much of a loss for the women.</p>
<p>Garland, just because something has long been common doesn’t mean it’s optimal. In 2012 America, there are many, many more boys growing up without a father than ever have in our history, so the presence of an apropriate male presence is absolutely critical in a way that it never was before. </p>
<p>We can all snark and sneer, but the fact is that boys aren’t doing very well in a lot of places. The incarceration and dropout rates, as well as the ilegitimacy statistics should be alarming. Of course, it’s someone else’s fault because we are all so enlightened and special, but here’s a hint, blaming the boys isn’t helpful. Neither is giving up on them and relegating them to the trash heap of humanity because they don’t meet our expectations.</p>
<p>Raising three boys I’ve read several of these types of articles and a book a few years ago. I don’t know and I must be fortunate but I haven’t had this problem. My oldest two are basically off on their own, oldest has graduated college in spring 2011 and lives in a house with a girl and a guy that aren’t a couple. he works full time in a field that attracts more men than women. The boys, none of them, played much video games. They played occasionally when they were in high school if there wasn’t anything to do or the weather was foul. They all appear to be a guys guy…although they all make time for girls. They all were far more interested being “outside” than hanging inside. They have zippo desire to live in our basement and seem to be doing things to prevent that from happening.</p>
<p>I don’t know what they “think” about women. I know they are all three hetero. I know they, for the most part, prefer girls that are smart and they all decry girls they call high-maintenance. They seem to like girls that can keep up with them skiing but they also like going out with the guys without girls. I don’t imagine they will marry for quite awhile. My sibs and I all have more education than our spouses and we all married late…28-31. I’m a very strong woman and I suspect they all fear “presenting” some girl to me, my husband thinks they are simply enjoying being of age young guys and don’t have any desire to be tied down or paired off. He thinks they will all show up someday in their late twenties or later with a great woman. Hope H is correct. </p>
<p>I worry for the boys though because right now women do hold all the cards. They control their bodies, but can hold that over a boy’s head. They can still drop out of the workforce and stay at home without societal pressure while as a society we’re still grappling with men who want to stay at home. Girls can chase the boys, text the boys, call the boys and come over to the house, but boys really can’t do that for fear of being accused of stalking. We’ve developed an educational system that does favor the general work styles and multi-tasking that we know is easier for women than for men and we’ve labeled most male behavior as bullying, aggression, etc. etc. and removed any remnant of playground equipment or sports physical competition that did help boys run off excess steam and instead called them ADD and gave them drugs. On the other hand many girls find “hooking up” as empowering and ‘friends with benefits’ fun so the old ‘need’ of finding some girl because of hormones kind of falls away when girls are the aggressors. So yeah…i do have some empathy for young men these days. the video game thing i can’t speak to, since none of mine are particularly interested in video games on a regular basis…but then again I kicked the kids out of the house every chance I could and told them to find something to do, so perhaps that helped curb the gaming trend. But on the other hand, I think this generation of boys has the most potential for changing those things very things that are really not ‘equal.’ I’m painting things in broad strokes, I know, but I’m not a guy and I’m the mom so I can only speculate in macro. It’s interesting to step back and look at from the other point of view.</p>
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<p>Oh I totally disagree with this. How many times have we seen women get blasted on HERE for being SAHMs? </p>
<p>I absolutely know it’s different for my generation but there’s HUGE societal pressure on us to be “working moms”. SAHMs are “settling” according to what my generation has been taught. OTOH, we are embracing SAHDs (this is seen in statistics and shifting cultural norms as seen on TV and in movies). They are elevated to an almost “enlightened” level. </p>
<p>Blaming video games is a cop-out. If you’re going to “blame” video games, you need to “blame” the parents who are enabling this. </p>
<p>I do think our school system is leaving men behind, but it has nothing to do with the overwhelming amount of female teachers. It’s the fact that we praise things like raising your hand and doing your homework exactly like the instructions say, which we socialize young girls to do from a young age.</p>
<p>Overall, just a +1 to music’s post.</p>
<p>Wow, momofthreeboys, you sure aren’t talking about black women! </p>
<p>Anyway, I have a boy and a girl, and don’t think they fit any of the patterns for girls or guys. The really strange thing is how my D was the perfect student in HS while my son waited for college.</p>