The sullen son

Parents Forum
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<p>In my naivete, I really thought that my son would be so much easier through the teenage years than my daughter. <em>sigh</em> I was wrong!</p>

<p>My son is the quintessential sullen teenage boy. He’s always been a bit on the quiet side but now that he’s 15 (sophomore) he’s become more social. He has a small but decent group of friends. These are boys we’ve known for a long time and I know the parents as well so I have a comfort level there of everyone pretty much being on the same page re: things they can do, places they can go, etc. No issues there. He told me the other day that he’s putting more time and energy into socializing than academics. And this is reflected in his grades which are falling. He’s a naturally bright kid - not a uber-genuis but he “gets” stuff really quick. He understands concepts and when he reads something thoroughly can retain the information long enough to spit it back on a test (which is the way our HS works). Subjects like chemistry, latin and english are a breeze. Honors math and AP euro and psychology (psycho teacher!) are a disaster.</p>

<p>If he’s not interested in the material, he gets bored and impatient, loses focus and rushes through the work without paying any attention to details. The problem is that nowadays he’s not interested in any material - he’s more interested in friends. Primary EC’s are computer, poker and video games with friends. He plays golf all spring and summer but we live in Indiana so there’s a fair amount of downtime with golf. </p>

<p>Obviously, I’m worried about the trend I see and am conflicted on how to handle all this. I know that this is the “dark side” of the teenage years and he won’t be sullen forever. So the behavioral stuff I don’t like will eventually peter out. But the self-motivation and self-discipline is harder to deal with. I can’t force him to be something he’s not and I love the phrase someone has posted about love the child you have. His laid-back attitude will actually take him very far in the long run in life. But a little “get fired up” wouldn’t hurt right now! How much do we push/goad/police right now? Do we limit his social activities? Do we demand he participate in a school club? Do we set homework times? Do I check assignment notebooks (he’s already not turned in 3 homework assignments just because he forgot to write them down and now the grades in those classes are needlessly low - ugh!)?</p>

<p>What we’ve told him so far is that we’re disappointed in his grades - especially considering his potential. We’ve given him until the end of this semester to get his grades up to ~3.4. This is very doable considering his classes. He has 7 academic classes, 4 of which are easily an A with a minimum of effort. The other three are hard and I certainly don’t expect an A. He’s done the permutations on a calculator and he knows it’s doable. Plus, we’d probably cut him some slack if we saw improvement.</p>

<p>We’ve given him the option of how he wants to do this: on his own or with our guidelines. He chose on his own. We’ve told him that the consequence of not meeting this goal is that we will be taking him out of the public HS and putting him in a small, private school (that his best friend goes to and that he could participate in every sport due to no-cut policy - something that appeals to him. This is not the punishment is might seem to be). We told him we would help him in any way: tutors, taking him to school early to see teachers for extra help, etc. But he chose to do this on his own. </p>

<p>For those of you who have trod this path before: does this sound harsh? Are we forcing too much? Are we not demanding enough? How did you get an unmotivated child motivated? Or did you? Did you just slog through and somehow it came out all right in the end?</p>

<p>I just realized this is my first post on CC about child #2 - it’s always been about the daugher (college freshman at DePauw). As he’s a sophomore, it is now obvious I will be here for at least another three years. Thank god, they increased the font!!</p>

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<p>I think you have to be in control to a certain degree, even though your son is a teen. The way I see it is, you are his parent and he still needs to learn things from you. Some teens are not as in need of guidance from adults as others. I believe if you don’t enforce certain things, his problems could only become worse and he’ll have more difficulty down the road. My husband & I have always had to ride our son who is also a bit of a slacker… loving to PLAY! He is a very bright enthusiastic kid… but a bit on the immature side when it comes to self discipline and organizational skills… it’s his nature! As his parents, we do tell him what to do many times! For instance, the beginning of the school year, we told him he had to join and participate in 2 clubs. We explained and discussed that it was very important to his being accepted into college. He understood and joined… and is enjoying them very much! If we didn’t make him, he wouldn’t have seen that they could be fun and interesting! We’ve also often told him to study more, rewrite things that were falling short, etc…trying to instill in him a desire for him to do his best. You know what though…after he’s made to do better, he usually feels so good about it! More recently I’ve noticed he takes more initiative in these kinds of things … because he’s experiencing positive results. You know, some kids just need more parenting, guidance and structure than others, perhaps because they are a bit more immature in some areas and need to learn. I know that some parents feel that kids have to be left to their own devices and will learn from their mistakes. I’m sure they’re right to a point… but some kids learn too little and too late -especially when you are working on a deadline here… a junior or senior has only so much time to prove themselves.
Good luck… its not easy!</p>

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<p>Good luck! I have gone through this three times–am still going through this with a highschool senior, and my most academic child who is now a freshman is getting a case of the uglies already. I can’t give any advice since I obviously have not learned to handle this myself. What I did to salvage the grades somewhat was to micromanage the academic end to a point where the schools felt it was outrageous since the boys were in highschool, in college prep, honors and AP courses. But I did not want them to drift through highschool without learning the materials and I also did not want to find out how low they would really go gradewise. So I got every assignment and checked if it was done–the private schools they attended were very good about putting the assignments on a website and the biggest problem I had was that too often changes would verbally be communicated and not updated. They were dishonest enough that I could not believe anything they said about assignment extensions or test delays. It has not been pleasant. If they started doing shoddy work on home assignments, I sat with them while they did them. Even with all of that, the grades were nothing to brag about, and it is entirely possible that they deliberately sabotaged themselves to get back at me. but they did learn the material which was evidenced by their results on the SAT2s. </p>

<p>My H is of the school that some kids have to bottom out or get pretty danged low before they realize what they are doing. I think that may be the case for some kids, but that this philosophy is dangerous as most kids who fall below a certain threshhold never regain the academic ground that is lost. Both boys who completed college did manage to get their academic bearings about half way through college. The first burned out two years worth of community colleges in learning to do so, the other has a compromised college transcript because barely passing grades his first two years. But both did graduate, one is now a doctor who is going into medical research. </p>

<p>I am also having social problems with my senior in highschool who is highly attracted to a risky lifestyle. He got a taste of the indolent, bohemian life and loves it. We had to put him on a really close leash last year, and we did get his grades up but relationships with him are poor right now, and I am holding my breath that he does not do something stupid to get thrown out of highschool. We’ll send him off to college, and at that point it’ll be sink or swim. We have been patterning him in academic and social behaviors all of his life, so he has to know the routine, and if he does not follow it, it is totally through choice. If he flunks out of college, he’ll have to take the rough road. But I have taken on the mission of getting him through highschool and into a college. It has really aged me, stressed our marriage, and even made me ill, but I feel this is something I want to do with each of my kids, so that once they do leave home for college, they are at least cognisant of the level of work and behaviour patterns necessary to succeed whether they choose to use them or not.</p>

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<p>I completely relate with you Jamimom… I too micromanage my son at times … It’s my way of TEACHING him HOW to go about doing what must be done - it’s my job!</p>

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<p>Jamimom, I wish I could meet you one day. You are an amazing parent. I could use a session of commisserating with another parent over certain things.</p>

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<p>Susan, you have been ever so blessed with two girls who are self motivated, though I have absolutely no doubt that your parenting and nurturing brought these girls to that point. I will say that you have always been kind with many of us who do not have the superkids that we so often see on these forums. Your kids are too busy to post here; mine could not care less, which is a problem since much of my time is spent patterning them into behaviour that is necessary for them to get through school. I can honestly say I do this because it is the direct way to get things done, not because I feel it is the best thing. We have also used therapy, curtailing of priviliges, tutors, programs. I only pray that the kids grow up to remember what the right things are in the important things in life, and I don’t mean the academic things. Right now, my highschooler is really right on the fringe. He has managed antagonize nearly any adult that would have been on his side with his behaviour. My goal now is just get him through highschool and into college. We have scheduled 8 auditions starting in ten days through the first week in December and hope to get some idea where he stands in this process. I will post on the MT thread when we get through that. Too much of a coward to relate current experiences as they are not amusing to me at the moment; very painful. But if your D’s eyes roam over to a tall, dark, handsome, charming young man who looks too good to be true during her visits, tell her to stay away! That could be him. : ) (Can’t figure out those new smilies-really wanted the devil one!)</p>

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<p>Your son sounds like most of the sophomore boys I’ve ever known–and I taught chem to sophomores for years. Please try to be happy that he’s learning the social skills that he desperately needs. This is the year they start to kick in, and if they miss them, it’s VERY hard to help them later.</p>

<p>That said, he also needs to become way more efficient in his studying if he’s going to be successful in school. Notice: more efficient. He needs to be able to do both.</p>

<p>One way to do that is to encourage study groups with girls. Girls are great at all the minutiae of studying–note cards, that kind of thing.</p>

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<p>Hey we also refer to our soph son as sullen. He went from the sweetest most loving and giving kid to the grunting one word sarcastic answers we get now. He also is into poker, x box. He has learning issues and ADD so school managing has always been an issue. For years I had to be on top on him. I walked away the homework stopped.Then I took a semester and walked away. The stress was getting to all of us. We had to do some retesting about a year ago to update his learning issues. We ended up scheduling a few extra sessions with the psychologist doing the testing and we came up with some compromises. Basically he could handle homework and projects his way as long as his grades were in a range. If that was not the case then it went back to Mom’s way.<br>
He started a new school this year and we have insisted on a few things. One is that he do a sport. It keeps him busy and somewhat out of trouble. He hates it most days but that is life. So far his grades are good but not great. He knows the material but his written work is of inferior quality. Sometimes looking like the paper was just pulled from the trash. We have given him some monetary incentives so I am hoping that helps. He doesn’t care about grades at all so incentives are the best tool we have found. We have always used the shorten leash when school and behavior don’t meet expectations. He is a sweet kid who can sometimes get into trouble because he doesn’t think before acting. I have like Jamimom found that I need to really take care that he doesn’t get into things that he shouldn’t. We also constantly remind him that if he has an interest in learning to drive he needs to keep his grades up and stay out of trouble.
We also use a school issued weekly progress report that he carries each thurs to his teachers where they give a weekly report as to progress and behavior. That way we have no surprises.
I have heard from many that it is just a phase. We at least can hope.</p>

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<p>Why are Americans afraid of discipline for kids. In France if child does not do school work this is no longer X box or video toys. I have been in States for 3 weeks on college tour and visiting American friends. Everywhere kids with the problems with alcool, videos, no respect for parents and no control. They are of good families but no discipline seems the way. Boston was exception where the kids at Cambridge Latin School and Andover were respectual and different. Why American? In Europe schools demand children show respect, dress properly, do homework. My ex husband raised asecond family in Los Angeles. Kids sililar gene pool, no? They could not be more different that our children. Don’t want to be horrible but I’m glad second husband, French, was role model!</p>

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<p>You’re right frenchmom! It’s not easy being a proactive take action parent these days in our culture! So many parents, perhaps because they feel guilty about working, or divorce, or whatever, are too permisive! My cousin told me her 11 year old daughter “just doesn’t do any chores.” I don’t understand that! I told her to MAKE her… Tell her if she doesn’t do them, she can’t do anything else… PERIOD! My 16 1/2 year old son is at times very stubborn, but I can still insist he do what he needs to do. I just tell him he can’t do anything until what needs to be done is done! A friend told me her 14 year old son doesn’t do his homework… I had the same reaction: MAKE him! Kids need to be taught that they must be accountable and if they are part of a family, they need to do their part… at home and at their JOB - which is school. It is hard when so many parents have a different attitude and look down upon a parent that micromanages or enforces certain things. Many of the parents I know think that when dealing with teens “you have to let them make their own decisions and then let them suffer the consequences.” I think this mindset is not always the best for many kids… just because they’re physically older (15, 16, 17, 18) doesn’t necessarily mean they are not in need of guidance and being taught how to handle things.</p>

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<p>Certainly this is a phase, but please don’t assume that the next phase will be any easier on you! I have three teenage boys, and in some ways I’d compare the 14-15 age to the “terrible twos”.</p>

<p>It sounds like your son is overwhelmed. He has so many priorities, and is at the age where he is making a major break from his parents. The emotional tumult of 15 is draining his resources, and at the same time he is expected to function like an adult. It would be too much for a lot of people. If he is doing poorly in those three academic subjects, consider dropping the psychology, if the school will allow it. Then you can focus on setting goals for the two weak subjects. </p>

<p>Weekly grade reports, by e-mail or phone, can be a great help in knowing where to put your focus. Have very specific, but manageable, goals, i.e., no missed homework, mandatory study night before tests, maintaining a certain average in each class, or else. He should have some input on the goals - you might be surprised at what he is willing to do. You then have to be pretty tough and inflexible about punishments - this is the age for grounding. I know, I know, the last thing you want around the house is a sullen teenager who can’t go out with his friends… </p>

<p>Young men take a long time to grow up. My goal for my kids has always been to help them recognize their areas of weakness, and learn to adapt their lives to compensate. It’s been a long series of baby steps, front, back and sideways. When the daily struggles diminish, though, I have the time and energy to help them with their special interests, and that is a real joy.</p>

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<p>Fredo: your son sounds so much like my nephew. He was extremely bright in elementary school, smart and fairly successful through eighth grade (because he was well ahead of his peers). Then he started high school and each year has been downhill. His parents pushed him and nagged him, but did not micromanage assignments or class status, and there were NEVER any consequences for his slacking off. Each year was worse. He always promised to do better and they always believed him and it never happened. He graduated with under a 3.0 and did get into a Jesuit college from their waitlist. Academic probabation after the first semester; squeaked by the second semester; applied to transfer to an easier state school the third semester. He is very bright, charming, and capable but he is a major slacker. He has never learned self-motivation.</p>

<p>I also saw my best friend’s two sons go down this unmotivated path, as well as both my stepsons. All were allowed to take charge of their own academics; all blew off their school work and grades. Out of this group of four, only one is still in college–back at community college at age 21 while trying to also work full time.</p>

<p>There was an interesting thread on this subject in the old forum. Some parents said to let the kid own the issues. Jamimom advises to get in there and supervise the kid and make sure things are happening. I don’t know that there is a one-size-fits-all solution but I do know that my nephew’s academic situation is a real waste of his potential.</p>

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<p>The word disclipline means to teach. I think most people do disclipline their kids, some kids just resist doing what they need to do, for a multitude of reasons. I give a lot of credit to the posters in this thread. They have done their best and it’s not really fair to judge people unless you’ve walked in their shoes.</p>

<p>Carry on…</p>

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<p>just comparing notes…</p>

<p>My daughter is so much the same. Social life comes first and foremost. We have begged and pleaded for her to take more interest in the academics, and the EC’s. We even switched schools for the same reason as fredo mentioned, except that we did just the opposite…out of a very selective larger parochial school into the small local public. (There were more issues not the least of which were finances…but her involvment was a big part of the discussion). As part of our decision making we had asked her to choose ONE extracurricular at her former school – and she refused. I just don’t see any drive or goals, and I become very jealous of kids like soozievt’s! I irrationally fear there will be no college that wants her! (I know that’s a huge exaggeration). I fantasize about having conversations with her explaining that if she would but set some goals and work a little harder, she would have more choices for herself. But whenever I think I find a possible opportunity to do so, the eyes roll and she tunes us out.</p>

<p>At the same time, she appears happy. I sometimes hear her singing as she works! She does her work, and hands it in without agonzing (getting primarily A’s, B’s and occasionally lower on exams). She sometimes forgets to submit homework, but not regularly. She did join the theatre this year (for social reasons), and is having fun. She’s healthy. Gees…I sometimes feel gluttenous for wanting more.</p>

<p>But…how do you instill ambition? How do you encourage goal-setting and planning? What gives one person the “drive” to better themselves? Are they innate – or “where did we go wrong”? </p>

<p>A friend once pointed out that these traits seem to be characteristically “American”…not to say that US citizens are the only ones with them, but that many of our ancestors were driven to find a better life, which is why they came here. Her theory is that it is “in our blood” – but not necessarily universal.</p>

<p>…sorry…this post went all over the place!</p>

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<p>It is the Brits too. My intent is not to insult. It is to say that I see cultural differences in discipline and in what we think is best for children. I had a visit with a friend who teaches at Andover Academy. She gave me a very good view on kids of this generation. They could fill this school, very hard to get into, with Asians because of so much focus, respect and desire for learning. Now many Americans first question will be but are they happy? I guess we the French have a similar attitude that achievement can make them as happy as video toys. They will not have suffering later when it is figured out that they have not made path for success. Is values that they be happy teenagers and than understand too late that whops, they are not prepared no matter how smart they are they can not get a good job or career?</p>

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<p>This year, I took a deep breath and just backed off when it came to my daughter. I know she’s a good kid - not liable to get into trouble. She gets decent, but not stellar grades and hasn’t jumped into any major extracurriculars. She’d rather watch an hour of TV then spend an hour getting ahead in her school reading…and given the choice between studying and going out with friends, stand back so the dropped books don’t crush your toes as she rushes out the door. I just got tired of always being on her back about homework, joining clubs, entering contests, jumping through hoops. I still occaisionally ask about assignments and how her grades are going but try to keep it clear that her school results are about her efforts, not mine.</p>

<p>If you had told me a year ago that I would be doing this, I would have told you you were nuts: back then I believed that the only way she would ever succeed in life would be if Mom rode herd on her.</p>

<p>So, here’s what’s happened: she is a much happier and well-adjusted person. She hasn’t joined any more extracurriculars or done more in the ones she was involved with. Her grades have improved a bit, but nothing spectacular. She seems to be managing her time better and there is less emotional tearing at hair when tests are coming up. She has also started to ASK for my help with certain things (such as proofreading the occaisional paper). In short, she’s growing up nicely and doing about the same as she did before but without the drama. She seems satisfied with that level of achievement and it’s her life so - I tell myself every day - as long as she’s not in danger, I have to accept her and love her as she is, not as how I wish she was.</p>

<p>Now, I wouldn’t recommend this approach for every child or in every situation. Certainly if drugs or other dangerous behavior is involved, parents need to take direct action. And, I do think it’s important to stay on top of what is going on - but there’s a big difference between staying on top of what’s going on and staying IN what’s going on.</p>

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<p>I happen to agree with you about discipline, and have many of the same motivation issues with my son that fredo is having (he’s not sullen yet, but he’s only 13, give him a year). I think the difference in Americans and many other nationalities is the idea that real success is unrelated to schooling (despite all the angst on this website) - the truly wealthy get that way through hard work, native intelligence, luck, seat of the pants - anything but “book learning”. The reasoning being that these boys will wake up at college age and go out and be successful. In the past, in this country there was a lot of truth to that line of reasoning - this IS the home of the self-made man. With our children, not only are they “the coddled”, they are the first generation to be the offspring of “the coddled” (if the late 60s early 70s weren’t self-indulgent, I don’t know what was).</p>

<p>So, it is going to be interesting to see if these kids rise to the occasion - I know from looking at my friends’ children, the slacking and lack of discipline is everywhere. My husband who teaches high school believes that they aren’t in touch with the reality that wishing doesn’t make it so, that effort is necessary - in some of the seminars he attends through school, they talk about the impact of the web, and the ability to invent personae for yourself - you can say that you have done anything, just publish on the web and it becomes true. You’ll see that on this website, but he says it is widespread, and subtly effects their cognitive development so that they sort of always see reality through rose colored glasses, and are truly perplexed when they don’t receive what they think they deserve or have “earned”.</p>

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<p>I think much of what our children are currently experiencing re: lack of motivation may be due to our world situation. How can they possibly think of their future when you see pre-beheading videos on tv?? All those appeals for help by those captives go unanswered ! I don’t know about you, but I curl up on the couch of my $500,000 home and say, “Boy, I’m glad that’s not me.” But our kids, can they afford to live in our neighborhood? Can they ever earn enough money that they will be out of the suffering middle class? Do they have to worry that there will be another draft and they may be whisked off to some third world country where they could be shot/blown up by some irate rebel who believes you are invading their country? Do they think that there are enough well-paying jobs out there (that have not been outsourced to some other third world country) to go around? I think the young generation if they are at all in touch with the world views what we have done to this country with some skepticism. We’ve made somewhat of a mess of things. And we have not really provided our young people with a life style that is easily manageable with the pittance of incomes that are being offered even to elite private college graduates. Sometimes I think they say, “Why bother? What’s in it for me?” I would ask your child about how he/she views the world’s circumstances. You may be surprised at what you hear. Just a thought.</p>

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<p>In France it is still important “who you are” for jobs and track to success. It was the most different thing when I came here for college to understand that I could through hard work and good education get to the top along with the children of the very wealthy and best families. The best companies would consider me. Visiting college friends I see that this generation seems to not have the understanding of what their parents did to be in their lives now. They did work for good scores and not play so much but kept a focus on every level of achievement it would require to have what they wanted to have. Yes, maybe the world makes kids feel defeated. Maybe this is it. Though in much of Europe the young people see many opportunities. The EC is allowing growth and passing of people among the Countries. The children are excited by new opportunities. Here I think you lead so much and so much of major advancements start here. The children wish to be the next Bill Gates, no?</p>

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<p>yeah, all Europeans are hard-charging and happy and all Americans are slackers playing Nintendo.</p>

<p>I don’t think generalizing gets you anywhere. There are plenty of successful, ambitious adults who were late-bloomers; there are plenty of miserable and underachieving adults who were valedictorians and voted most likely to succeed. Many European politicians and law enforcement people would howl with laughter at the characterization of their citizens; some economists believe that the short work week, mandated vacations, family/maternity leave policies of their countries will leave their citizens gasping in one generation as fewer and fewer wage earners support longer and longer retirements and paid leaves, and there is anti-social and violent behavior in both rural and urban areas in Europe. Bet those soccer hooligans wish they’d listened to mommy and were home studying organic chemistry instead of rioting after a game.</p>

<p>To Fredo-- this too shall pass. I have no magic elixir for you, except to tell you that for my kid, a combination of limits, a refusal to micromanage, and a superhuman effort on our part to let him fail when he had to did the trick. Contrary to my instincts, I was not the mom driving his calculator to school when he left it at home. I did not stay up into the wee hours typing a paper for him when he’d been out too late the night before. When he needed money he got a job; when he sassed his boss, he found his hours cut for the next week. Pretty simple message out there in the real world.</p>

<p>Kjokw-- don’t be jealous of anyone’s kids!!! A wise old friend of mine once told me that if you had to choose between your kids being wildly succesful and moderately happy, vs. wildly happy and only moderately succesful, most parents would choose the latter. I’ve read enough of your posts to know that you would too… your daughter sounds like a breath of fresh air and with beaucoups emotional intelligence to boot.</p>