The sullen son

<p>p.s.</p>

<p>The other thing I’m slowly learning in life is that discipline just doesn’t do it! Luck and connections are equally important. I think I worked VERY hard as an architect for many many years. I was never very “successful”, however. Perhaps I didn’t work smart…but I know I worked hard. I would spend endless hours at homework in highschool, in college studios, and again at my jobs. I would literally work to the wee hours of the morning trying to please the client, the developer, the boss. For what? I can look back and say I was disciplined! But I also feel the fool. It did not make me rich. It did not give me decent benefits. Sometimes I had great innovative ideas (usually not in architecture), but they typically went nowhere. I hear the same story from many doctors today as well. And teachers. Believe me…they were disciplined!!! </p>

<p>It may sound bitter…but it is not. My career is a good one. It is fun, safe, flexible. (It gives me time on CC!!!). I’m just trying to decide on the importance of grades, discipline and high school careers. I’m not sure discipline is what is needed. I hear lots of stories of Asians who do not have the time to enjoy life. Are they happier? I think not. Are they more successful? Depends on the definition of success. I don’t think we should make “happiness” the one and only goal, but nor do I think the stereotypical Asian student lifestyle is the pattern I want my children to follow. </p>

<p>Believe it or not, I think the social aspect is important too. Many of those high school slackers I knew way back when are just as successful as I today. It was not because at some point it “kicked in” for them. I think it had more to do with their luck, their social skills, their ability to play the business game better than I. I don’t think discipline had anything to do with it!</p>

<p>I do think goal setting is imperative. Wonderful line from the music “Happy Talk” (South Pacific): “You got to have a dream, if you don’t have a dream, how you going to have a dream come true”? </p>

<p>The difficulty is knowing how to teach that lesson to my children, without merging my dreams for them, with theirs.</p>

<p>Hear, hear, Blossom! Anecdotal generalizations are tiresome. I agree with Cruella, too, that discipline means “teaching”, not making my kids little goal-seeking missiles. The only thing I asked of them is that they strive to get a good education. What they do with it is their business. If that makes us a family of slacker Americans, then so be it.</p>

<p>Why so defensive, there was not offense in my meaning. Your famous TV psychiatrist, big man can’t remember his name is on TV here and in Europe saying how out of control American kids are and have no discipline. I didn’t think I was saying news. Everyone should raise their kids in their best way but can we really say there is not a problem in this and many places with kids who have no good path?</p>

<p>Also, we have our own problems in France as the Asian people do, but it is not discipline or being afraid to take away the distracting things.</p>

<p>Don’t despair Fredo. My observation is that boys get a huge jolt of testosterone between the ages of 14 and 17. When it hits them, they can’t help themselves. They want to bite something. Parents are the ideal target. Their love is unconditional; ie you can bite them and they will still love you! </p>

<p>My DH thinks the ‘biting’ attitude is an evolutionary response, designed to toughen them up for hunting.</p>

<p>The barking and biting does seem to soften with time. Senior year of HS is better. </p>

<p>HUGE amounts of aerobic exercise helps–and good nutrition–but we feel your agony. It’s hard to shake the memory of a soft sweet boy when he’s standing there growling. And snarling. LOL. :)</p>

<p>And to think my mother managed to raise four boys! Kudos to all parents with four or five or six children!</p>

<p>Yes Cheers, I was so zapped!! It’s OK, all that rigor growing up in France has given me thick skin! Devils advocate that I am, I will point out that the people at Stanford, be they from any culture, are exceptions. And what brings this wonderfully diverse group of young people together? I would say motivation, hard work and yes, discipline. Oh if my French son can get himself together to show he has this he would love to be one of the exceptions. Survey question to all Stanford parents: Was making your child happy the first priority? Tongue in cheek meant!</p>

<p>Fredo,</p>

<p>When my daughter was little, I read somewhere that you should give a child 100% of what they need and 25% of what they WANT…maybe therein lies the key to motivation.</p>

<p>We always talk about need versus want when they tell us they need something. They have seen a bit of the world to realize that wants and needs are quite different. But as my son would say at times I still want it.<br>
I will say that I would choose a sullen boy anyday over the wrath of a teenage girl!</p>

<p>I can’t keep up with all the wonderful discussion on this forum. </p>

<p>Jamimom, when I posted much earlier to you on this thread…I realize that when I said you amaze me, and you do, and that I wish I could have a session to commisserate with you over some stories you relate, that the crux of what I meant might not come across. Yes, I understand that you are dealing with motivation issues and frankly, that is one issue I have not had to deal with. But when I said I could commisserate, it had more to do with just dealing with certain other things with your son that while the specific issues may differ, I could relate to some things you brought up that dealt with discipline or “micromanage” stuff. I never had to do any of that with my first child. I never had to discipline her a day in her life. I now realize that she was the unusual one or not a typical teen girl, but that the second one has more of the issues that other parents deal with. The second D is quite a challenge but not with motivational issues. She challenges everything. Issues with limits and discipline, cooperation, respect, responsibility or organization with daily things and other stuff presents challenging moments OFTEN. And when I read of how you deal with things, I do admire you a LOT. You deal with more than me with all your brood and I don’t know how you do it. I only have one child who is challenging in various ways in terms of parenting so I could have two teens like that. She is a terrific kid but some moments are well, uh, difficult. So, the issues need not be the same but how to deal with them is an ongoing challenge that I CAN relate to you about. By the way, how is it that your son has so many auditions by Dec…I did not think that many schools had them this early if not ED…maybe your son is applying to different ones. The only one my D has before Jan. was confirmed today at Emerson on Dec. 5…will your son be there too? </p>

<p>Kjo…PLEASE PLEASE do not be jealous. My kids are NO NO NO more better in ANY way than yours. Each kid has their strengths and weaknesses. Yours just has different ones than mine. Perhaps on the one issue you are raising, yes I do not deal with motivation issues or getting my kids to get involved in activities and such but with one of my kids, believe me, I deal with lots of stuff that is NOT easy as well. They are NOT perfect. Your D sounds like one amazing girl to me. </p>

<p>I don’t have too much advice for the original poster other than sympathizing on how difficult it is when issues like this arise. I think it is reasonable that you set some limits about his grades or time set aside for schoolwork. I think you can set a certain standard of expectation and specify the exact consequences…there can be positive consequences for reaching certain expectations…or earning of “privileges” that are not all “rights”. And if he does not choose to improve on the grades, then you may have to limit time out or on computer or whatever the issues are until he can show that he can meet expectations and put those things as a priority to earn the privilege of the free time and so forth. I know this is easier said than done but I would line up some sort of system about that. Also, I am not that into the consequence of that he would have to switch schools if not doing X. I hate to see school itself as the consequence. I think in order to earn free time, he must put in his work time. That is more the line of reasoning I see here. There may need to be check ins with assignments to be sure he is doing what he is supposed to do, until he can manage to do that on his own and prove it. . Sorry to not be helpful as believe me, I have my moments too of frustration too but just about different issues with one of my kids. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

<p>Susan, most of the schools offer early auditions even if they do not offer early notification programs. Syracuse had auditions as early as Oct, for instance, Harrt has them first week in Dec, Emerson has 3 of them by the first week in Dec–his will be in November, I believe. CMU has one mid Nov. So he will get the bulk of the auditions done by Christmas, and some of them do have rolling or early admissions notifications. He has 15 schools on his list and will hopefully hear from a number of them which will steer the course for auditions in the new year. He does want to apply to Juilliard that does not have auditions until after the first of the year, for instance, but there are a few schools where he will cancel the audition and withdraw his apps if things go right. He also has a few non audition schools just in case. </p>

<p>I also agree with your perspective about the OP’s son. School is too much of an issue to use as a punishment or consequence. If they like the school, it can be a major benefit. I find that micromanaging with an intricate carrot and stick works on the short term. For the long term, well, a sigh and a prayer. </p>

<p>My girls were very easy going during their high school years. Their only issue was that they did not test well, and had to work a lot harder than their peers (or brothers) to get their grades and to understand the material. But socially and emotionally, they seemed to be pretty stable and neither busted my chops like the boys. But they have had some issues in college that have left me troubled. </p>

<p>I guess I had some expectations on how they would be that were unrealistic. I was a pretty quiet kid who stayed out of trouble and excelled academically, and I just assumed that my kids would also be motivated to do well in school. I shirked from negative attention, really any attention, and could not understand those kids who revelled in it. My boys do. They seem to thrive in conflict and controversy, and stir up trouble regularly. The thing I have really worked on with my kids is to keep them from shooting themselves in the proverbial foot (or feet). I’ve had to shut them down to a point where I began to feel that I was living with the Menendez brothers, the atmosphere at home was so thick. So sullen for me is good. I like sullen.</p>

<p>Jamimom; Curious. One boy is in MT, creative-type with a bent for drama. But are the other boys also leaning toward creative fields?</p>

<p>Fredo, I just want to say that I feel for you. Although my son did not really turn sullen at that age, he did definitely withdraw and become very quiet for a couple of years. It was very hard for me, as we all remember our little boys who used to throw their arms around us and tell us how much they loved us, and share their emotional lives with us, and suddenly lose that closeness. I worried that things weren’t going well for him in one way or the other, but there was no way I could really tell.</p>

<p>I tend to have certain books that have gotten me through difficult times, and for a long while I kept my copy of “Get out of my life, but first could you drive me and Cheryl to the mall?” by my bed-literally re-reading chapters over and over to see if my son was verging beyond the normal. I do recommend that book as it covers many of these topics in a very compassionate way, and has some wonderful advice as well. One of the comforting/funny things I remember reading in it was just that teenage boys seem to go into their rooms, turn on the stereo (MP3 player now, I guess :slight_smile: ), and emerge 4 years later. I guess the good news is that most of them do, in fact, do so. I can’t tell you how lovely it is, now that my son is in college, to see him opening up again, smiling broadly, and actually conversing with me in a happy, adult way.</p>

<p>Best wishes, it sounds like you’re doing a great job.</p>

<p>Has anyone else read recent news articles about the developing mind? There seems to be solid evidence that the pre-frontal cortex (I think that’s what it’s called) doesn’t fully mature in some individuals until the MID TWENTIES. This is where judgment resides in the brain - the area that might put the brakes on risky behavior. Have you ever said “what were you THINKING?” I really believe this is the root of the problem. Many adolescents aren’t primed to make the best of their high school educations. The problem is that we have no productive place to put them. I think NCLB has erased the last alternative (vocational ed) by requiring that everyone follow a very academic course load. </p>

<p>We didn’t micromanage #1 and I sometimes wish we had, but it honestly is not in our natures. When I look back on his h.s. career, though, I remember teachers pointing out things that were late, lost, etc., but not ONCE did any teacher ever offer a solution (this goes back to middle school). On the other hand, everything son has accomplished he “owns” and he was far from being in any real danger, socially or academically. S. tests very well and is well read and intelligent, just never got into competing for class rank, etc. That is who he is. We hope he finds a passion in college to turn his talents to. I guess what I’m saying is parents need to intervene and be a heavy presence in cases where kids are in danger (academically or risky-behaviors) and to model behaviors they favor - diligence, completion of tasks, responsibility, kindness, even looking up words in the dictionary-that’s a big one around here and causes groans but remember that there are developmental things going on with each kid and maybe have faith that they will grow.</p>

<p>Cheers, I started all of my children in music at an early age. All except one seem to have an affinity to it. My oldest, who was a standout athlete, has the most natural talent, but no desire to do more than play for enjoyment and attention. He has a beautiful voice and plays both violin and piano with a resonance that is truly breathtaking even when he hasn’t touched the instruments for a long time. He can really play anything by ear and has natural perfect pitch. My D is an excellent, disciplined musician who still squeezes in a private lesson at college and joins their ensembles on an adhoc basis. But she is not at “competition” level though she could probably gotten into a music program had she chosen to do so. She is more the visual artist, and that was her main EC in highschool. My niece was a gifted ballerina, a tribute to her mother really, who was in a professional ballet troupe once upon a time. She came to us when she was 11 and was very well trained with the perfect body and grace to go that route as well. We put her into the Pittsburgh Ballet School where she excelled, but she did not want to spend the time that the next step for her would have entailed. She took music lessons as an after thought but like my daughter PRACTICED so she too was quite good. Art was a passion for her as well, in high school. Both girls got top scores in their AP Studio Art and won many local awards, but did not take it beyond that level. My nephew enjoyed music so we paid for lessons for him as well but he rarely practiced but he plays better than he deserves for the little time he put into it. S2 is now auditioning for theatre and musical theatre programs. He was always under the shadow of his very gifted brother, but he really enjoyed music and put more effort into it though he could have put in more. He has a strong voice, more of a belter, and has excellent range. He plays violin and viola, and is proficient at piano at an intermediate level. Theatre has been his passion, and he has belonged to many theatre groups and studios, worked in several theatre programs and has performed professionally. He had an equity card once but gave it up because he wanted to participate in some non equity opportunities. I believe this one is ADHD from his impulsiveness and some other characteristics, but because of his very charming demeanor, he was never called on it. The female teachers all love him or hate him. Like that song, they either want to own or stone him. He is very skilled in any theatrical type activity. The younger ones have an average interest in the arts. The second youngest seems to have a spark and is above average in natural musical ability. The baby , it’s too early to tell and the third to the youngest has no interest. S3 also has no interest despite many years of lessons though he is a dependable orchestral member. Just no passion in it. Right now the youngest ones are not taking lessons. I guess I am worn out. I used to really be into it and spent every dime and more in music opportunities for them.</p>

<p>Just a thought to the OP. Your son’s classes sound fairly uninspiring. It also sounds like your son, like many his age, spends a great deal of time in rather passive activities (mentally passive that is). Seems like a rather risky combination in terms of seeing any tremendous change in the near future. Might need to spark it a bit. Maybe the private school, rather than being a “last resort” might be an option with a more appealing or engaging mix of classes, etc? Something cool of a technical ilk for example (my son took Technical theater and Electronic music and the next thing we knew was co-founder of a popular musicians union and running lights for all the shows)? Also, in note of the comment of Lefthanddog, your son’s study skills and lack of sustained attention might be worth a further look…especially if they are of longstanding duration.</p>

<p>Is your son sullen (which I take to mean a bit sad, actually) or is he just disinterested?</p>

<p>Robyrm, that is a good observation. I was thinking the same thing but was not sure how to articulate it. Kids at this age should be kept busy and not have that much free time, is my opinion. Though I love the idea of the carefree youth, my experience has been that “idle hands do the devil’s work”. That is really how gangs form. I work pro bono at an inner city school, and find that kids just hanging around are the ones that find trouble. Better they are in a sport or any activity where they are kept busy and supervised. I know that my son tends to get into trouble during down time and I really have to keep an eye on that. Giving him extra study time was worthless, as he did not do more work, but less, just knowing that he had more time. He needs to be under the gun a bit to get motivated and do his school work.</p>

<p>Jamimom,
I think the key thing is to discourage them from dabbling too much and to help them find things they love to do. If they find something and devote themselves to it a reasonable amount of the time, then I think they will use their “down time” more effectively- and I think all kids need down time. Unfortunately, the studies of video games, TV and such suggest that for some kids, in particular, they exaccerbate a tendency to an overly passive style of thinking- which them makes it hard for the kids to find anything interesting at all. The risk is then that learning is just never too interesting…though for some “late bloomers” it happens when the subject matter gets more meaningful to them, too.</p>

<p>By the way, I believe your family has earned a live in music teacher.</p>

<p>I really appreciate all the feedback I’ve gotten and it’s definitely given me some food for thought. Robyrm, you’re exactly right. Classes are uninspiring, plus his outside activities are passive and it’s a bad combination. He has 7 academic classes: english, latin, AP euro, chemistry, honors pre-cal/algebra II, psychology and biblical literature. So he has a tough academic schedule to start with but he tells me none of those classes interests him at all. (Next semester gets a little easier in that he swaps psych and bib lit for PE and fiber design. Don’t laugh - our school requires 2 credits in either fine arts or performing arts and he is musically 100% inept which left fine arts. He’s already taken ceramics and fiber design fulfills that other credit req.)</p>

<p>He likes sports but our HS is 3600 kids so to make a sports team with such a deep talent pool you have to be pretty exceptional. He did make the golf team which is his real passion. He wants to be a golf course designer. Golf here is pretty much April through October and he is very committed to it during those months. There’s golf team practice every day, and then he plays every weekend with his dad. During the summer there’s ~15 golf tournnaments with playing almost every day. Next summer, he’ll be working with special olympics golf (I’m forcing that one but I think he’s okay with doing it).</p>

<p>If he went to the private school, he would be able to play all sports because of their no-cut policy. It’s a very hands-on, can’t hide school witha total enrollment of 150 kids in grades 9-12. The students have a faculty mentor that they are required to meet with bi-weekly. Small class sizes means teachers are much more involved. In his present math class (the class he’s struggling with most) there’s 30-35 kids and he sits in the back of the class. He and I have met with the teacher, we’ve discussed his class performance and she’s suggested what he has to do to improve. But if he can hide in this (or any other) class, he does. That would definitely not happen in this other school. We wanted him to attend this school last year (he even won a merit scholarship to attend) but he was adamant about attending public school. At that time, everything was fine so there was no reason to take a stand for not sending him public.</p>

<p>I don’t want to give the impression that everything is bad with him. He’s a really good kid. Doesn’t do drugs or drink. He’s actually the moral compass of his group of friends. His “I’ll do it my way” attitude actually works for him in this area. His friends cut class one day and asked him along but he said no, it was a stupid idea. (Reinforced by the fact that his friends got picked up by the cops who saw them walking along the road during the school day and they received in-school suspension). His grades are generally pretty good: A’s and B’s with a crummy math grade. We have on-line grade reporting so I can see his grades daily. We look at them together and discuss what he has to do to get them just a little bit higher - where he can. </p>

<p>This may sum up his attitude: he had a big math mid-term that he needed to do well on. He tells me he studied and prepared. He understands the material but he doesn’t like to do all the steps, hurries and makes careless errors (leaves out steps, miscalculates) and then doesn’t like to check his work. When I asked him if he got the test back he said no, I asked if he at least got the grade, he said no. I asked if he cared what his grade was and (surprise, surprise) he said no. I asked him if he thought I cared what his grade was and the answer was “oh, yeah.” When he was in 1st grade, his teacher told me that he was the only student she’d ever had who didn’t care about pleasing her. Every 1st grader mostly does everything they are told to because they want to please the teacher. Every one except my son! So this attitude of now caring is not something new.</p>

<p>He does play community league basketball and he was just asked to play on an intramural basketball team. I’ve also got him signed up to play platform tennis. These are all “fringe” activities i.e. he likes them well enough that he’ll do them if I push and prod and just sign him up. But he’d probably prefer to stay home and either be on the computer or play poker. I really am glad he’s become more social because his social skills have definitely lagged behind his peers.</p>

<p>But if he really doesn’t want to do something, he just won’t. I’ve encourage, cajoled, begged, ordered him to join some club at school but he won’t do it. I don’t want to march him into some classroom after school just so he can be in the nintendo club (one of the benefits of a school this size is the sheer amount of clubs available).</p>

<p>So, in a nutshell he’s a typical teenager I guess! He’s his own man. Decent but erratic grades, good kid with a moral compass, laid-back, strong interest in golf, social skills starting to emerge, willing to participate in some activities (basketball and platform tennis), unwilling to do what he doesn’t want to. Occasionally sullen (not depressed sullen, by the way, and my daughter went through major depression in HS so we’ve seent that one first hand) but I know this will pass. Laid back is the best way to describe him. </p>

<p>I guess the best tactic is to take with a grain of salt the stuff I can’t change. His laid-back nature was evident from the day he was born. To instill both consequences (the private school) and rewards (he told me just the other day that positive reinforcement would work best for him so - don’t flame me here - we’ll pay for good grades). To manage but not micro-manage i.e. to review the assignment notebook every night so he’s clear about what works needs to be done that night but to let him manage doing it on his own. To keep searching for things that interest him be it classes or outside activities that I see some “spark” for and direct his involvement in that more than I might normally might i.e. go ahead and register him for special olympics training and make the phone calls for when he has to volunteer. I think I also really need to keep in sight that he’s basically a good kid - there’s no trouble maker here and I need to be thankful for that. </p>

<p>This is what my husband calls a “high class problem.” We have a basically good kid who just needs some directing, occasional hands-on managing and a match to light his fire. There are parents out there who are dealing with a thousand worse things than this and I need to remember to be grateful for the wonderful son I have. And to also be grateful for a message board where I can vent my frustrations and have supportive, concrete feedback and know that others have travelled this way also and this too shall all pass!</p>

<p>Fredo:</p>

<p>I’m not sure what to advise as my Ss have not gone through the same kind of experiences as your S. But here are some comments based on my S’s experience. He does not care for most of his school work, though he does well in most of his classes. He is fortunate that his passion happens to be an academic subject and that accommodations have been made so that he can pursue that subject. Because of that, he is able to put up with less challenging classes or merely classes whose subject matter do not truly engage him. But if he had not, I can easily see him going through school in exactly the same way as your S. By the way, although gifted in math, my S makes careless mistakes and does not always check his work.
Based on my S’s experience, I think it might be very helpful to find a way for your S to cultivate his passion. It could energize him to do better in the rest of the schoolwork. And I even think that designing golf courses could improve his math!</p>

<p>Fredo-- your last message was great clarification as to what is going on.</p>

<p>My son was not a joiner either, and so frankly, I have little hope that cajoling and making calls for him is the way to go. I think getting him fired up about something he cares about so that HE does the legwork has a better chance of success.</p>

<p>Towards that end… why not suggest to him that he find out if there are companies in town with golf related businesses? An advertising agency that does the media or pr work for a golf club manufacturer? A bank which arranges financing for local clubs? A landscaping firm that consults on design modifications and basic maintenance?? An apparel company that does custom logos on shirts and visors? The business librarian at your local library can be the contact here in helping him learn to do basic research to identify likely companies and then find out the right contacts there. He can then see if he could arrange an internship, a job, or just to “shadow” someone at a company to learn how people who love golf actually make a living (assuming that he’s not Tiger Woods in training…)</p>

<p>Our son had a variety of work experiences… some great, some horrible. The horrible ones taught him how important it was to get good grades, get through college, so you didn’t have to spend your life folding sweaters at the GAP. (no knock intended on the GAP, but folding was not a strong suit with this kid!) The good ones gave him a boss or a colleague who was a good role model, and taught him some valuable skills or just reinforced his work ethic. The one great job had him up early in the morning, staying late “just to hang out”, calling in on his days off to see if they needed him, etc. Watching his transformation that summer helped us see that a responsible, passionate, grown man might some day emerge from the sullen and usually lazy kid we’d been living with…</p>