The sullen son

Parents Forum
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<p>Fredo, I feel for you. Please realize that most of us DO have issues with our kids too, even if the issues differ. It ain’t easy at times. And you are right, that these issues pale in comparison to what some parents deal with but nonetheless, still are important or affect us as parents and present challenges (and frustrations). </p>

<p>I am glad you explained the private school issue further. I had not realized that you had looked into that school before and that you had “let” your son go to the very large public school because of his wishes. That changes it a little for me because you could be saying fairly enough, that you went with his choice of school and that if he can’t meet X or Y standard that you expect there, and if you can’t resolve to change that using other solutions, you will want to send him to the other school where you think he might not be able to get away with some of these academic issues as easily because of the reasons you stated. So, it can be like a last resort that can be spoken about as it harkens back to choices you made earlier to go with his request to go to the public and you have some real reasons why you think the other setting might help him both in and out of the classroom. </p>

<p>It does sound like your son IS engaged in worthwhile committments in golf season so is not a slacker overall. I would be concerned over so much computer and poker time and might see what one worthwhile activity is that he would like in the off season. It would be so great if he could have interned with a golf designer or someone in any facet of the industry in some capacity but that may not be possible. </p>

<p>Actually your son sounds like a pretty good student, taking hard classes and also getting As and Bs. I realize he is not doing as well in math. I have a kid whose performance in a class is somewhat also directly related to liking the subject matter or to her relationship with the teacher or enjoyment of the class. She performs well when those factors are positive and when they are not, it can show (this is sometimes true of gifted kids in general). She is not as good at science, does not care about science and unfortunately in the past few years had some of her worst teacher experiences ever in that particular subject where those teachers truly hated her and acted so unprofessional toward her that just surviving was her goal in such a poor situation. This year, she likes the science teacher who treats her nicely and while it still is not her best subject, it has gone smoothly, but her grade is the lowest of all her subjects still, though I believe she is trying hard as at least she has a good rapport with the teacher, all factors that affect her performance. I don’t think it is unusual for your kid to perhaps not perform as well in a class he does not like and so forth. While this is not quite the same issue as your son, it relates to my D cause the situation of the subject and class can make a difference. </p>

<p>For instance, my D does not like math and will never be going into anything related to math. However, she has a high apptitude for math, has always tested very highly in that area and is accelerated two years ahead of her age. This year, she is up to Calculus and the only class in the school that is offered in it conflicted with her history/English class and so it looked like she could not have any math and she needed math to get into college (this is her third year of high school). The school was not going to let her have ANY math which is not OK with us and would be detrimental to getting into college. We got them to agree to let her do indep. study AP Calculus (the Calc. teacher was very willing but the math dept. head was not as much) in the math office one period per day where she has to self teach and is given all the assignments and exams. Would you believe that she has the highest grade of all the Calculus students (A+) in the school at present (according to her teacher)? She said, mom, it only proves that I can do fine in this very difficult subject as it is indep. study and I do better in that type of situation than in a math class. She had done two prior math indep. studies for two math courses in grades 7 and 8 and had gotten As but then the past two years had to be in classes where she did not like it too much and got a B. So, the teachers and the class situations really affected her performance, it seems. I can’t give kids that as an excuse for kids, however, as they need to step up to the plate whether they like the subject or not or the teacher or not, the class or not, and so forth, but am merely saying how this sometimes happens for some kids. </p>

<p>In your son’s case, I would discuss any concerns you have such as his math grades or whatever else you feel are not up to par and what you expect. Until he can turn that grade around, I would set up some system whereby you either check that homework is done (which can be weaned away later), OR set up that all homework must be done before free time (an understanding we have always had in our home anyway), AND/OR if you check online and see his grades up to par a certain week, then he may earn the privilege of social plans or whatever else is meaningful to him (computer time, etc.). Those are privileges not rights and he can earn those privileges by doing his expected responsibilities. That way it is more of positive reinforcement. You do X, you get to do Y. If the motivation is not internal, you will have to build in outside motivation and reinforcement for doing what he needs to do. I guess you ARE doing that by offering money and if that works, so be it. But it also could be that the positive reinforcement be earning privileges that he has now that he maybe should not have if he is not doing his end of the bargain in school. Just a way to look at that. My general room of thumb, however, is “whatever works, do it.” I would not personally use money but if it works for your kid, that is what the goal is and there are no easy solutions and so if it works, be happy. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>Sorry, I did not see Blossum’s post when I was posting above and she also was bringing up getting a job, internship, shadowing thing with anyone in the golf industry. I agree with her, obviously, and that getting your kid to join this or that activity is not gonna work as they have to be interested in the activity. Given golf IS his interest, you can see what sort of golf related thing he might find to do in the off season. He has to own the process and have a choice of activity. As well, a job is another worthwhile endeavor!</p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>I don’t have any real advice here. But, I bet the friends have a lot to do with it. If his friends are cutting school and have a “don’t care” attitude, that’s a huge red flag IMHO. Switching schools sounds like a really good idea so that he might hopefully form some new friendships with kids who are motivated…</p>

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<p>Blossom’s suggestions were very much the kind of things I had in mind when I wrote about ways of cultivating his passion, though I had nothing as specific to offer. I even think that, if he can get engaged in some of these activities, he might hang out less with problematic friends.</p>

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<p>Fredo,
I empathize with your dillemma. How could you have predicted all this before agreeing to send your son to public high school? It was a reasonable judgement call that was inclusive of your child’s preference…and that is good.</p>

<p>In our case, both of our older Ds attended a fairly rigorous secondary school that has a fairly strong English program. Last yr, we learned that D3 has a learning issue that challenges her in the area of expressive language. Everyone assumed that D3 would attend the same secondary school as her sisters–as did she! As parents–after long and thoughtful discussions with teachers, therapist, and our other Ds–we decided on a school that was a better “fit” for her. It was not easy explaining all this to a 5th grader…and, in the end, we asked her to trust us. I am happy to report that she is very happy where she is at. Parenting is tough…lots of bumps along the way…you just do the best you can.</p>

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<p>Sorry to interrupt from a teenage perspective. I was often described in the same way as your son, I did my own thing through school, if I was interested I was all over it, if I wasn’t there was nothing anyone could do to change my mind. I think the worst description I heard was “on the edge.” I simply didn’t jump through hoops and I didn’t give my time away, and your son doesn’t either. On the other hand, simply jumping through hoops is worth nothing, and if you cannot “get” your son to suddenly care, it sounds like you’re just running him into the ground, burying his incentive under layers of bargaining. </p>

<p>Our interests sound radically different though. I was always very passionate about literature and it was easy for people around me, especially teachers, to see that I wasn’t completely apathetic towards school, but rather disinterested in certain subjects. Some teachers were especially sympathetic, some tried to crack down on my habits. Because I could never force myself to care about grades, there was no way I could be persuaded to do the busy work they required, and this stayed that way until this year. Mind, I never did badly, I have an excellent memory and I pick up on things quickly, and so I was never in a situation where I suffered because of my laziness - I did better than most. Since your problem seems to be trying to find a way to plant genuine interest in your son’s mind, forget it. It will happen on its own. I’ve had so much fun this year - with seven (hard) IB classes, because I love what we’re studying. The private school might be good for him in this sense. My school’s small, international, and very much discussion and writing based, and it suits me perfectly. I used to hate it in 10th because most classes were ****e, but it picks up in 11th, something I didn’t think was possible.</p>

<p>Micro-managing him and offering him money are not long-term solutions. You can’t follow him to college and go over his assignment book with him. The only thing I can offer is to find out what he wants. I mean it, ask him. Don’t plead, don’t bargain, don’t reason, don’t offer to let him explore these interests in return for focusing on academics, but simply ask him. If it’s at all feasible, let him gear his time towards those goals. No matter how sullen, every teenager has gone through years of school, and somewhere along the line, they’ve enjoyed parts of it. Whether it was a certain activity, a certain teacher, a certain curriculum or book or way of teaching, they’ve managed to keep awake. Write down what type of environment has made him care or reflect about the subject, etc. After all, something’s kept him awake this long. </p>

<p>The simple fact is that teenagers (or I, at least) don’t feel we owe our parents our or teachers our time. Forcing us to “volunteer,” or to study, or to play sports simply doesn’t work. Have I done things to please my parents? Yes, not because they told me to, but because I cared whether or not they were pleased or not, and not simply because one way they were mad and the other they weren’t. If we feel it’s our time and that we’re using it the way we want, we’re infinitely more ambitious when it comes to learning.</p>

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<p>My 10th grader is also rather disinterested. Grades were Bs and a few As at an uninspired public school which did not have high expectations. At a private school, with extremely high expectations, grades have still been Bs. This causes me to believe that the daily work level to make it into A range is simply of no interest.</p>

<p>The problem for me is that nothing else is of interest either, yes, she’ll play a sport, but she doesn’t care that much about it & doesn’t derive a great deal of satisfaction from it. Yes, she has done music, dance, art, etc., but nothing elicits passion.</p>

<p>If her grades were Bs, but she was really “into” something, i would not be so concerned. With older siblings who have had great motivation and passion, sometimes I wonder if she is simply trying to be different, but being “nothing” in terms of interests is no solution.</p>

<p>How do I help her find her passion? We’ve done most sports, at some time or another; choir, music lessons, dance, ceramics, etc. Some things are fun, others are boring, but nothing inspires serious interest.</p>

<p>Any ideas on helping kids find their passion?</p>

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<p>Limon -</p>

<p>You provide a valuable perspective and make some interesting points, One of the key things was when you said:</p>

<p>“If it’s at all feasible, let him gear his time towards those goals”</p>

<p>My question is what do you do when the sullen teenager’s goals are not at all feasible? What then?</p>

<p>Let me give an example: last year my D’s high school produced exactly two National Merit Semi-finalists: my D and another kid. Both of them are very smart people. D is the sort of kid who mostly is willing to 'jump through hoops" to achieve her goals, and from your perspective she probably gave some of her time away. She is currently very happy and doing well at a highly selective university where she is getting a great education. The other kid was very smart, very intellectual, but he refused to do the work in any class other than the few subjects that interested him. He preferred to wear dark glasses indoors and long black trench coats everywhere and sit in sullen rebellion against The Man.</p>

<p>Great. I admire his courage and willingness to put his money where his mouth is, so to speak. But where did it get him? Burdened with a transcript littered with Ds and Fs, there were questions whether he would even graduate. I think he is currently at a community college trying to scratch up enough credits to deflect attention away from his high school record and hopefully qualify for a low end university. But I’m dubious of his prospects, because even at the community college he’ll be required to take some of the same sort of classes he rebelled against in high school. And it will just get worse at a university should he get in. Clearly he has chosen a non-feasible path for himself. He has made it very difficult for himself to get a good education. This from a NMSF. What a waste of his own intellectual talents! </p>

<p>If you were that kid’s parent, what would you have done?</p>

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<p>I have to chiime in…first of all, thank you to limon - you sound much like my son and it is a relief to know he is not so weird after all!!
DS (18 yrs) is also one of those “passionless” kids and, on the opposite end of the spectrum is DH who gets very passionate about things - (as a kid it was baseball) - DS’s lack of “passion” drives my husband nuts! I
have always had wide ranging interests but got bored too quickly with most things to ever develop a passionate interest in anything…perhaps it is just the nature of some of us and all this talk about “finding your passion” sometimes makes me feel rather inadequate. As tho’ one has to have a “passion” to have a fulfilling life. Please understand I don’t mean this as a criticism of anyone, just an explanation that some of us apparently aren’t “built that way”.</p>

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<p>Coureur - made him get a job, preferably involving hot sun and dirt or asphalt.</p>

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<p>And what about the highly gifted child whom the schools have failed, and is now worn out from trying to self-educate, whose passion for science has been “tested” out of him or her, and who is tired of being the “geek” or “nerd” at school, and who has now decided that playing video games and talking to friends online, or hanging out at the mall and worrying about make-up is where his/her passion lies. I know 3 students that fit this description (or coureur’s) and it breaks my heart to see it. These kids are capable of amazing things, and maybe their interests will pick back up, but it may be too late for them to then achieve their newly found dreams. </p>

<p>These kids have been exposed to sports, music, art, summer programs, and everything else their parents can think of but nothing has stuck. How do you encourage them to follow their passion when they don’t have one?</p>

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<p>Coureur - if I knew, or anyone knew, there wouldn’t be so many ***<em>off students at schools. As it is, maybe school is not the answer. I know it sounds like the end of the world, but education can only get you so far in some fields. I don’t mean to suggest that they just wing it, you know, every slackoff student’s dream to become a famous movie director because so and so did it and never went to college, but rather that if it’s music that interests them, fine, it will be worth more to them to spend every possible hour practicing, or art, or whatever. On the other hand, I realize that there are people who simply *have</em> to go to college to be able to do what they want, and it would be best if they realized it as soon as possible and decide if they can make that sacrifice. I’m not suggesting it’s easy, as there are plenty of unhappy people out there, but that it’s a start to realize what you want, and what steps exactly you’re going to have to take to achieve it - whether these involve slogging through the boring stuff now or not. A senior last year, a really good friend actually, one of the smartest guys I’ve met, almost didn’t graduate. He’s pretty brilliant, but he was that sort of restless, driven, ADD type that I would run into in the halls and he’d be skipping a science class to have lunch with someone he found more interesting. Put in the right environment, he might, might, succeed, no one has any idea. We talk about the [his] Syndrome, that makes really brilliant guys like him barely scrape by with Ds. Right now he’s doing a 13th year in a European school, then he’s hoping to go to college. He knows he’s relying on the recommendations of people like my English teacher, who recognize his potential, and also realizes that they might not outweigh the rest of his transcripts.</p>

<p>Ckr - Sure, not everyone’s on fire for something. But I can’t think of anyone who doesn’t have preferences, where they’d rather be, what they’d rather be doing. It doesn’t have to be burning passion, it can just be something that’s fun. But I prefer to think (and my opinion is of course unburdened by bills and rent) that if one should do anything, it’s what they enjoy doing. On the other hand, a senior last year confided to an English teacher that although she had absolutely loved everything she’d learned, she knew she couldn’t live that sort of life - an English major bum - and that she was purposefully setting out to make a good living for herself.</p>

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<p>I think everyone needs to accept the fact that there are “passionate” people and then there are just plain, normal people. Everybody wants to have the passionate child, the one who’s on here bragging about their 1600, 4.5 gpa, athletic prowress, whatever. And yes, some of these passionate kids grow up to be a John Kerry (thank god). But you have an entire lifetime to love and enjoy the kids you’ve been given and the adults they turn into. Teenagers need time to grow up - some more than others. In the meantime as a parent we all have a responsibility to prevent them from extreme failure. There does have to be some rigor in the expectations, and in their daily schedule. It’s all easier said than done!</p>

<p>I think my sister is the perfect example. As a kid she was very unmotivated, highly social, not at all studious. She went to a lousy 2 year state school and ended up waitressing. Did I mention that she was (and still is) extremely fun, kind, and easy to be with? When she was in her late 20s she thought she better get a life. She went back to school (with 2 kids) became an RN and is probably the best nurse you could ever hope to end up with if you needed one. She has no regrets at all about her life. She recognizes that she just took a little longer to grow up than some people.</p>

<p>Chances are if you think your kid is sort of failure, they know that. Think about it.</p>

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<p>Thank you weenie…my son is one of the nicest, kindest kids you could meet and I have definitely seen him maturing over the past few months. He will always march to his own drummer and be a laid back kind of person - and there’s nothing wrong with that. I think when a child is extremely bright, we can tend to expect “grown up” attitudes and emotions when, in reality, they are just kids. And some, as you said, take longer to find themselves…and, in the long run, they usually do. My son’s favorite saying of late is “people need to calm down”…and maybe some of us parents should do that…</p>

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<p>Weenie, you are so right about kids who just need some more time and breathing room. But unfortunately there are also those kids who are spending that time and using that room detrimentally to themselves and others. That is when the parent would want to step in. Because ultimately the parents end up with the consequences right along with the kid. And paying for the those consequences as well. </p>

<p>Without observing the kid and noting his activities and actions, it is impossible to come to any real conclusion. Is this just a laid back kid who somewhat underachieving but just needs the time and space, or is this a kid who is heading for trouble? Is the kid just at a loss for things to do, is he too disorganized to get his schoolwork and activities organized, can he use some help? Is the parent just being overly anxious? Sure the kid could be doing better; we could all be doing better. Not many of us would like an analysis of our underachievements. But there are certain minimum threshholds that must be met or the consequences are not good for anyone–kid or parent. And if the kid is hovering at that threshhold, the parent is going to worriedly hover over the kid. As I said in an early post, to me, “sullen” is good. There are other areas, however, that are not.</p>

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<p>Man, everyone in this thread should go and read “Death of a Salesman” about fifty times.</p>

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<p>Let me just weigh in here too! I have a “Passionate scholar” type daughter - NM, Val, now at a selective university and enjoying herself to no end. I have a 15-year-old son, who is very bright, gets good grades (low A’s), has no EC’s except JV tennis, and home computer games, poker w/ friends etc. I could push him to join clubs, feign interest in things he is not interested in - but WHY!!! He is who he is. High School is stressful - High School is a full-time job. It is 8 hours of 2800 people and many teachers in a small building, pushing through crowded hallways, and using tiny bathrooms in the 5 minute passing period, then running up two flights of stairs to your locker, attending 7 classes, and a zillion social interactions. Some people thrive on these situations (my daughter!) and crave more. Some kids just need more “down” time at home, chilling out by watching TV, hanging out with friends, playing poker, petting the dog, reading the sports news… I know I’m wiped out after work, and I certainly don’t want to run out and do anything!
There will be a good college for my son, and he will have a fine life. If I had to bet, I’d bet that he ends up earning more money than my intellectually driven daughter - (some of it due to her career goals and interests), and I think they’ll both have fulfilling lives. (My hopes and prayers). So I’m not going to try to force my son to be who he is not. (By the way, everybody DOESN’T have to be in the top 10% to have a good life.) Hope this viewpoint helps!</p>

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<p>The first pediatrician we had when our oldest was born told me “sometimes there’s just a mis-match between parent and child… nobody’s fault, but since you’re the grownup, you’re going to have to learn to cope”.</p>

<p>I thought of that often during my son’s teenage years, and I think of it now reading this thread. For parents dealing with a kid with a drug problem, or who is suicidal, or anorexic, or a whole host of self-destructive behaviors, Fredo’s son sounds like a dream come true. As Jamimom says, “sullen is good”, particularly compared with some of the alternatives.</p>

<p>As for the debate on passionate kid vs. unpassionate, or late-bloomers vs. the hyperachievers we read about on these boards, I see it as just a mis-match in personality types. Hyper-organized, achieving parents want kids who are the same. Laid back, “smell the roses” parents don’t show up on these boards… since I’m sure they think the endless debates over which is better Dartmouth or Middlebury is insane. However, they probably scratch their heads in amazement at their hyper-achieving, ambitious kids and wonder how to contain all that energy and why their kid doesn’t want to hang out at the mall or DQ like every other teenager in town.</p>

<p>I have seen few attempts at micromanaging homework and such (no matter what euphemisms you use to describe “positive motivation” or paying for grades, or whatever) that really work. When a kid is in 4th grade and struggling with organization? go ahead and get involved. By high school, you’re setting yourself up for some big time trouble for when they leave home as adults. Do you tag along to college to make sure they do their reading every night so they don’t fall behind? Do you go with them to the bank for a car loan to make sure they sign their name in all 12 places? Do you file their taxes for them to make sure they get their refund? Neighbors of ours have a kid who is a senior in college, applying to med school, and needs mommy to type her papers and proofread before she hands them in. Parents picked her courses, determined when to take Organic Chemistry so it would have the least impact on her GPA, help her study for finals, and will, no doubt, get her through med school as well (they took on MCAT’s as a family project).</p>

<p>My lazy kid learned more from his failures than his successes… even though it almost killed us, as his hyper-organized parents, to watch…I had sleepless nights his first semester in college imagining him starving, wearing filthy clothes, having locked himself out of his room for days on end, overdrawn bank account, you name it. Somehow when you’ve instilled in them that they become responsible for their own actions and that although you will love them forever, you stop doing their laundry and following up on their homework assignments once they’re able to do it themselves… they get the message and rise to the occasion.</p>

<p>There is no such thing as a renaissance teenager… nobody is good at everything or accomplished across the board at age 17. Fredo, your kid sounds great.</p>

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<p>Actually, consistent micromanaging can work. I call it patterning. What it does is make the kid go through the paces whether he wants to or not. Sometimes, the old brain retains the motions, and when the time comes when mommy is no longer around and push comes to shove, he actually knows what to do. Otherwise he has to start from scratch and may have no idea how to fill out apps, schedule appointments, study, take notes, clean out a backpack, organize a notebook. My boys never did any of these things until they went off to college, but when they did go and took it on the chin when they did not go through these motions, they slowly and reluctantly rose to the occaission. The alternative was to come back home and live with the old witch and that was not attractive to them in the least. But had I let them sink to the bottom in highschool, I don’t think they would have gotten into any college. I know too many families with one on the sofa with no direction that they end up having to throw out to learn the hard knocks of life. I feel like I am deposting them in a halfway house when I send them off to college, a halfway house with a Disney World pass. If they eat too much candy and party too much, they’ll turn into donkeys and have to come home and work. So far it has worked. I wouldn’t have bet a dime S1 was going to get through his first year of college, much less through college in 4 years. If anyone who taught my nephew in highschool thought he would be a doctor, a research doctor, I certainly did not hear about it. Their forecasts for him were quite gloomy, and rightfully so. I like to think that when they leave home, they can hear “the method” echoing in their ear from the repetition they are hearing from home.</p>

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<p>Blossom- you have very sound thinking- kids just “hatch” and it is our job as parents of young children to figure out how to match our expectations to their style(make a good fit), so that on some level they can see that we see them as successful and in a positive vein. Otherwise, we do set them up for failure with our unrealistic expectations. As they get older, we have to challenge them and we also have to know when to let them fail, because sometimes that is the only way they learn and they need to become more adaptive to expectations that are less flexible than our own. </p>

<p>No one is interested in solving a problem they don’t define. So Fredo’s child, who is like so many other kids who ultimately do “fine”, may not define the problem as Fredo does, or define the situation as a problem at all! The kid has to define the problem they are then willing to be a participant in solving. Here is where Limon is so instructive and Coureur’s example so frustrating. If you don’t see a problem, you cannot be part of the solution!</p>

<p>As far as “instilling passions.” It is also true, I believe, that some people are more overt in their demonstrations of what they like to do- some people are more intense and energetic. Everyone, however, is capable of feeling an affinity for something. This has nothing to do with grades or academic acheivement for lots of kids…It is also where parental expectations have to be brushed aside and you often have to look far outside the box. We also have to realize that even as teenagers, much of what an adult might do for fun or as a passion might not be readily accessible, it can just take time (and sometimes money!) to have a chance to find the right thing. </p>

<p>Beyond what he likes to do for fun (play piano, write and do theater lighting), my #1 son had one very meaningful experience as a HS student. He participated in a summer volunteer program (Landmark) where the kids completely self managed- shopped, cooked, laundried, got up, worked, helped- It was the single most positive changing experience he had and the single most motivating- if he didn’t shop, cook, etc…he didn’t eat, have clothes, etc. Beyond that, he was helping others and he was feeling a part of something larger than himself. He was not required to do volunteer work for school, he chose to do this because it took place at Tanglewood and he got to hear great music and be independent for a few weeks. Of all the programs, enrichment, incentives etc…this was the best for him anyways.</p>