The transition from marriage to divorce

Parent Cafe
81

Back to the original Q


[QUOTE=""]
What should they do about the vacation, planned together and they don't want to tell the children about separating until things are more settled? I think they can both stomach being together, but I suggested to try to get another room and have one parent with each set of kids.

[/QUOTE]

What is Parent 1 saying should be done? Since that is the person who initiated the divorce, s/he has likely already decided what s/he wants to do. If there’s already another SO in the picture, then likely a family vaca would not even be considered.


[QUOTE=""]
each set of kids

[/QUOTE]

how many kids are there? And are they all from the same marriage? Do you mean “boys with dad” and “girls with mom”?

Is there a reason why its ambiguous as to whether P1 is the mom or P1 is the dad?

82

Sounds like P2 was caught a bit off guard about P1 wanting legal separation and divorce, and already having an attorney. Kids age 5 - 15.

Has P1 determined their ‘unhappiness’ is from relationship with P2?

Has P1 thought about what is ‘best’ for P2 and the children?

I liked the information written about bff who insisted on mediation counseling and jumped into triage with children.

If one spouse totally signals that the marriage is over and goes down that path, other spouse can do some things but cannot prevent getting divorced due to no-fault - as another said, and it can get to be a very expensive process.

If P1 is motivated to wanting the separation and divorce, P2 can perhaps determine exactly what is needed for that to proceed.

I have known of a three different circumstances recently with 20 - 27 years of marriage, all 3 initiated by the H, and all 3 divorces. Two involved another woman (both women they knew in HS and that reconnected via facebook, one that the women sought out and the other may have been mutual). The one guy rented an apt for about 4 months to see if it would work out before deciding to divorce his W (he didn’t live there, just was where he had his trysts with the other woman and perhaps where she lived while she was also leaving her spouse). One guy was trying to hide money, so the W knew it was over and hired a forensic accountant to follow the money trail. One was very strange - had an attorney friend draw up a splitting of the assets which would be fair; W decided that if he wanted the divorce, she couldn’t stop him. Two adult sons were very angry at their dad. It was almost like he wanted the chance at a different life; to me a very selfish guy. What is also strange is that after their divorce, they went on a couple of ‘dates’ (I didn’t ask, but the assumption is that he thought they could be friends with benefits?)

P1 and P2 have to decide how they want to handle the separation (which has geographic nature to it already with the job situation). Does P1 want to ‘signal’ how broken the relationship is? What is making the difference from the status quo?

What does P1 and P2 want to do about the vacation? If P1 is going to move out, either before or after the planned vacation, absolutely being sensitive to the children.

Another Hollywood couple just split - Jennifer Garner and Ben Afflick, after 10 years of marriage and 3 children (ages 3 to 9). They went to a vacation home together and told the children there and also decided to divorce for sure, after a year of Jennifer Garner evidently being miserable if you can believe People Magazine.

Very sad for the family and the children.

83

<<<
Regardless of who initiates the divorce it is painful for everyone.
<<<<

quite true in most cases. Even when kids or parents are happier after the split, unless the family is quite well-off, typically there is such a change in financial circumstance (usually on the mom’s and kids’ side) that things aren’t totally rosy.

Few households have enough money to transition into two households w/o some or significant financial pain. I remember a classmate of my kid being quite upset when suddenly mom and kids could no longer afford the family home and had to move to some tiny digs on a teacher’s salary.

Over the years, I’ve received a number of PM’s from posters here who start out telling me how they have no idea of how they’ll pay for college since the Ex-spouse won’t pay a dime (but can afford to), and generally these people end up writing about the whole sordid divorce and how suddenly the custodial family (usually the mom) is far less better off than before. Just this week a mom detailed how her ex-H moved in with some chick, she gets minimal spousal support which has an end-date, she has no means to pay for her DD’s college, and ex-H who got possession of the business won’t pay a cent. While I like to help direct these folks to affordable options, it’s heart-breaking to see how our court system has failed these families - particularly when the moms “family tracked” themselves with spouse agreement, and will never be able to catch up financially…

Obviously, no one wants people to be forced to stay in volatile situations, but abandonment and financial devastation should not be a common result.

84

If both parents have professional careers, and have the ability to pay for nannys, housekeepers and other help through the transition, it might not seem as disruptive to separate and divorce, than when they are lower income and already struggling.
Which means many couples/ women, stay in situations that are less than optimal, because they feel the alternative is worse.

85

[QUOTE=""]
. If both parents have professional careers, and have the ability to pay for nannys, housekeepers and other help through the transition, it might not seem as disruptive to separate and divorce,

[/QUOTE]

Right…but the above is likely the top few percent of the population. And many in the top few percent of the population are single earner families. The vast majority of the population can’t maintain two separate households at anywhere close to the levels as the original ones.

86

I’ve had women friends who divorced. The women were attorney, nurses, a professor and an office manager (I considered all professionals). All of them made sacrifices for their Hs’ careers and their kids. They all got very little from the divorces and their financial situation was less comfortable. They each made it their mission to be sure their kids got to good colleges, regardless of how difficult it was for them personally and their kids were grateful. Often the H had a rise in income because the H only bore a small fraction of expenses for kids, education and households. All of the women have made it work with varying degrees of success.

Bottom line, two separate households often cost substantially more than one household with more people in it. It’s unfortunate that the divorcing women and kids often take the brunt of financial hit from divorces.

87

^^^
Exactly! And why this sort of thing isn’t managed better thru the court system I have no idea. We know this stuff goes on.

One professional woman that contacted me said that she and her H were healthcare providers, but she was the one who “took the maternity leaves,” “had limited hours so she could pick the kids up from school and take them to practices,” and so forth. Her H had no idea what teams their kids played on or where they even competed. She took care of all of those aspects. When her H decided to “trade her in for a much younger model” (her words), she ended up with the total short end of the stick!

I don’t know why we tolerate this stuff.

88

Yes, the problem is that many of our lawmakers are still MEN and guess who they identify with in divorces? Even on the supreme court, the men greatly outnumber the women. In the marriages between healthcare providers I know, the woman generally takes care of all children’s activities AND educational issues while the male is able to focus on his career. For the family as an economic unit, that’s OK, but for the individuals in terms of their professional earning power and advancement, not so good.

89

Women can’t be passive about divorce. My friend’s ex owned a business. Among the extras she insisted on were staying on his company’s cell plan and his health insurance, to the kids’ 18th birthday; that he deposit $X toward college every year, up front, and then split college costs equitably; that he take the credit card debt, every piece of “his” debt (he had some boy toys,) plus pay off her car. She got the house and responsibility for the mortgage, but alimony and child support covered that. The kids were about 10 when they split. So over those years, she worked her way back into her career. The kids are recent grads and are still covered by his insurance. She now has coverage through her own employer.

Yes, he whined that he couldn’t predict his biz success (and he cited a recent down year.) But she made him figure it out.

90

Forewarned is forearmed. Everything lookingforward listed (and more) is feasible. I talked a couple of friends thru their divorces. I was not their attorney but their fallback when they were ready to throw in the towel on financial issues or to relent.

Obviously if the money isn’t there, there is nothing to split. But very often women settle for the “emotional” assets like the family house, which may end up hurting them more in the long run because of the high carrying costs. Likewise it makes little sense to antagonize the future ex-spouse so much that the higher-earning non-custodial parent later uses money as a club against the children.

Depending on the financial resources of the couple, all of these things can and must be addressed:
– private school, if applicable, and college costs
– life insurance policies benefiting the children
– trusts for the children to protect inheritance rights
– not fully vested stock options
– deferred compensation
– accrued retirement benefits

My H has two employees who are decrying their “impoverishment” because they’ve had to “give” their spouses half.

My response: “They were never owners of that half!”

91

In my case I was the sole earner, a role I didn’t sign up for. I encouraged (demanded) my ex to work, but over time it was easier to not push because I was able to provide a very comfortable lifestyle for us. So when he decided he wanted a different lifestyle and also wanted half of our marital assets, I felt robbed. .

92

“What is making the difference from the status quo?”

That’s what Parent 2 is wondering, why now, when Parent 1 says there is no one else. Why not five years ago, or why not after the kids graduate high school, if there will be no change in parenting (one parent 7 days per week, one parent weekends only usually, and away for weeks at a time on occasion).

As for genders, it is kind of a flip flop in that the wife is the higher earner and has been for the entire marriage, and the husband came in with debt (and how is that handled - coming in with 50K of debt and always being the lower earner). But, as others mentioned, the wife is still the one who had to make all the sacrifices for the kids, and when it came down to it, his job still won out over the marriage if there was a “tie”.


[QUOTE=""]
. If both parents have professional careers, and have the ability to pay for nannys, housekeepers and other help through the transition, it might not seem as disruptive to separate and divorce,

[/QUOTE]

They have a babysitter and use aftercare at school. The babysitter helps with housework. Parent 2 is thinking that getting an agreement for half of the babysitter costs (now which have to be above the table to get the 50% from ex) is necessary. College costs haven’t been discussed, but I like the idea of both parents contributing to a college fund for each child.

Divorce is not a poor people’s issue. My in-laws just physically separated, my MIL cajoled my FIL to pick up the kids occasionally, and pay 20 bucks now and then. They only got the courts involved when 12 years later my FIL wanted to remarry. He fell behind on child support but he didn’t have the money so my MIL just dealt with it; in their case, my MIL’s mom was huge in providing child care and support. That is not the case here, little family support from either side.

(when I said “both sets of kids”, I just meant their own children being split between the parents, which happens regularly since Parent 1 rarely goes out with more than one child at a time, or stays home with more than one child at a time.)

Also - I don’t think there will be any “moving out” (stopping weekend visits) soon. I know that I would tell my kids ASAP if I was in that situation, maybe not use the “D” word, but tell them that things may be changing because us parents are having a difficult time. They both think they want to wait to tell the children anything, possibly as long as a year and likely therefore after a legal separation at the very least.

And, regarding online access - there is some difference in online access. Parent 2 just got a copy of the 2014 taxes after requesting them from Parent 1.

And THANK YOU all for your advice and support. She really feels hit by a brick, and me and my spouse having to deal with this has stressed us out as well. Also of course as my kids and their kids are friends, I need to insulate my kids from the hours and hours of phone calls and the emails related to this.

(and it hasn’t even been a full week yet since the divorce bombshell was dropped!)

93

@rhandco, your friend needs to see a lawyer ASAP.She (and you) can network among your friends about local divorce attorneys. Plus it’s likely that there are local online support groups that have experience. This is no time for amateur hour.

94

Right. When there are assets and debts, and some complication re: him coming “home” on weekends, this is not a time for DIY. Plus, as the questions swirl, she will exhaust her emotional strengths and be more likely to make a mis-step or innocently agree to something that will be, in the long run, unwise.

95

Can you stand one more tidbit from a long-ago child of divorced parents?

Often, divorce agreements make very rigid stipulations about visitation. For example, the non-custodial parent may be entitled to have the children every other weekend, from Friday evening through Sunday evening.

Now imagine that the non-custodial parent lives an hour away from the custodial parent, and the son is invited to his best friend’s birthday party on the weekend when he is required to be with his out-of-town parent. Or imagine that the daughter wants to join a soccer league that plays games every Saturday for eight weeks during the fall. In both instances, unless the non-custodial parent, the child, and perhaps the siblings spend huge amounts of time in the car, the child is not going to get to do what he wants to do. No birthday party. No soccer.

In other words, the children don’t get to live a normal life with the social and extracurricular activities that their friends take for granted.

If the parents live very close to each other, this kind of problem can be avoided. But that doesn’t always happen.

If the two homes are a significant distance apart, it would be best for the kids if the parents could be flexible and cooperative about visitation. If the son wants to go to a birthday party on the “wrong” weekend, perhaps he could visit his non-custodial parent on the following weekend instead. If the daughter wants to play Saturday soccer for eight weeks, perhaps she could visit her non-custodial parent for shorter periods of time on those weekends – say, only on Sunday rather than for the entire weekend – or perhaps the non-custodial parent could come and attend some of the games and take her out to eat afterward in lieu of a visit.

Kids want to be kids. They want to do what their friends do. Divorce shouldn’t limit that any more than necessary.

96

@Marian, my parents split when my older brother was 8, I was 5, and youngest brother was 3. My Dad stayed involved and very plugged in to our lives, never trashed my Mom (nor did Mom trash Dad), and she knew it was very important to us to have him in our lives. We missed him so much, and we all really looked forward to our visits. Since he lived at an apartment complex, he had a swimming pool that Mom did not, so his place was also really attractive for that reason. I remember leaving with Dad one weekend, looking back at my Mom waving goodbye from the porch, and saying to my Dad, “Poor Mommy. She won’t have any fun this weekend without us.”

LOL. She probably did a jig as soon as she shut the door, poured herself a glass a of wine, and took a long bubble bath!

97

<<<
In the marriages between healthcare providers I know, the woman generally takes care of all children’s activities AND educational issues while the male is able to focus on his career. For the family as an economic unit, that’s OK, but for the individuals in terms of their professional earning power and advancement, not so good.


[QUOTE=""]

[/QUOTE]

Yes. And, while @lookingforward highlighted some very good things to fight for, when the kids are out of the home or nearly out of the home, there isn’t that catch up time. Plus, that example sounds like one where the exH was a VERY high earner. The wife likely wouldn’t have gotten the same “good result” if her exH had a high but not very high wage. I think that’s the problem. A guy earning - say $150k per year - is not going to be ordered to provide that much to his family-tracked ex-W.

I’ve known a few teachers who opted for those careers because they were family-friendly…and their H’s were happy about that because it allowed them to take on job responsibilities that were less family-friendly (business travel, etc). But, when they divorced, because those moms had “full time careers,” their ex-H’s saw quite the increase in life-style, which the ex-W’s saw a drop.

98

<<<
Now imagine that the non-custodial parent lives an hour away from the custodial parent, and the son is invited to his best friend’s birthday party on the weekend when he is required to be with his out-of-town parent. Or imagine that the daughter wants to join a soccer league that plays games every Saturday for eight weeks during the fall. In both instances, unless the non-custodial parent, the child, and perhaps the siblings spend huge amounts of time in the car, the child is not going to get to do what he wants to do. No birthday party. No soccer.

In other words, the children don’t get to live a normal life with the social and extracurricular activities that their friends take for granted.


[QUOTE=""]

[/QUOTE]

Yes, that’s why divorce will affect a young child very differently than - say - a 17 year old - who can refuse to go to the visitation or can drive him/herself to whatever the activity is.

99

@oldfort <<<<
In my case I was the sole earner, a role I didn’t sign up for. I encouraged (demanded) my ex to work, but over time it was easier to not push because I was able to provide a very comfortable lifestyle for us. So when he decided he wanted a different lifestyle and also wanted half of our marital assets, I felt robbed. .


[QUOTE=""]

[/QUOTE]

I don’t know your situation, so I’m not speaking to your situation. I don’t know if your exH did the whole SAHD stuff.

But I guess if a dad (or mom) has been “at home” but not doing all the typical stay-at-home-parent stuff (childcare, home chores, cooking, taking kids to practices, etc), then it can feel like an adult moocher just ran off with half the family funds. I have a BIL that has never worked, put his kids in daycare because he didn’t want to be bothered, and just played computer chess all day. In other words, he’s been a mooch for the past 35+ years. His wife is a equity partner of a Chicago law firm. If he were to suddenly want to divorce, I’m sure his wife would feel robbed as well.

100

If noncustodial parent doesn’t provide support for college apply only to FAFSA only schools not schools that require the CSS profile. If the noncustodial parent remarries the spouses income is taken into consideration for college where CSS profile is required.