I don’t know how to respond to the vacation question – other than to say “It depends.” But I can relay the advice my X & I received when we were divorcing (with one child): both of you tell the kid together and emphasize that you both love the kid. Be specific about how living arrangements will be handled and emphasize that you both love the kid.
As a child of divorce myself at age 13, I can say that it’s quite possible for a kid to be completely oblivious. At that time, I kinda thought of my parents as a single unit. They never fought in front of me & my sister. It was a complete and total shock, and rocked my view of my world. I appeared fine, but I really, really, really wished that I’d had someone to talk to who had gone through it and survived. This was back in the early 70’s so I had no friends with divorced parents.
Anticipate that the 5-year-old may need to re-process the divorce every few years at different stages of maturity.
Not disagreeing, M2, that when it’s awful, the kid can see that. But many cases are less extreme. One parent can pick on things the other parent does, which we, as adults, can see as plain griping. We can go, “Yeah, yeah” and know what to ignore or why that one is venting. A kid may not be able to process it as easily.
Eg, if a dad complains mom’s a nag, how’s the kid supposed to take that? It can confuse and alienate. In OP’s case, a parent so eager to get out can say and do all sorts of things beyond the other parent’s control, from the complaints to indulging.
My parents marriage had issues (I’ll skip the TMI.) That didn’t give me any special insight.
With older kids it comes in the form of things like: "Your Parent 1 won’t help with the cost of a <<< fill in the blank… car, prom dress, sports equipment, etc>>>>> so you can have one/go to the prom/join the team. There are other examples of situations where one parent points out the flaws of the other parent ( always late, unreliable, constantly changing schedules, you name it) . Even if its true, these are to be worked out parent to parent-- and not drag the kids into it to be disappointed in the parent.
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With older kids it comes in the form of things like: "Your Parent 1 won’t help with the cost of a <<< fill in the blank… car, prom dress, sports equipment, etc>>>>> so you can have one/go to the prom/join the team. There are other examples of situations where one parent points out the flaws of the other parent ( always late, unreliable, constantly changing schedules, you name it) . Even if its true, these are to be worked out parent to parent-- and not drag the kids into it to be disappointed in the parent.
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yes, I can see when it’s worded that way, it highlights the other parent’s deficiencies.
But we’ve seen “sort of” these things here on CC. A custodial parent has to say, “you can only choose School A or School B” because that is all I can afford." The parent isn’t saying, “Because your big-paycheck dad spends all this money on his new GF and won’t help pay for college, you can only pick A or B,” but no one would argue that the kid isn’t seeing the truth behind the former statement.
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Not disagreeing, M2, that when it’s awful, the kid can see that. But many cases are less extreme.
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True, there are many cases that are less extreme…sometimes it’s just a compatibility issue. I agree that saying things like, “mom/dad is a nag,” isn’t meaningful to a child - particularly if the “nagging” was justified, “please don’t leave your dirty clothes all over,” or “please stop bouncing checks”…lol.
However, the truth is that there are many cases that are extreme or near-extreme. People don’t usually divorce over little things.
My SIL had a former H who was just awful. When they divorced, he and his atty claimed that she was engaging in “parent alienation” because the son didn’t want unsupervised visitation, but their son was 16 years old and wise to the craziness of his dad.
This goes without saying. But there are many instances where the divorcing parents strongly resent each other but neither is a danger to the child. Just because two people are incompatible or because one of them falls in love with someone else doesn’t mean that either of them is abusive.
Edited to add: I can tell you from my own family’s experience, though, that if someone tends to drink too much, that can be more of a problem after a divorce than before. In a two-parent household, if one parent drinks too much, the other may routinely do things to help ensure the children’s safety – like making sure that the parent who drinks doesn’t drive with the kids in the car after having too much to drink, checking that the doors are locked at night, and watching out for other risky things that an intoxicated person might do – like leaving food cooking on the stove and forgetting about it.
Once the parent who drinks too much is alone with the kids, there’s no second adult to compensate, and there may be more danger for the children.
"My parents were divorced. My mom insisted that my sister and I go to our dad’s house almost every weekend. She said it was important to him, and she was right. But it was also important to her to have some kid-free time. "
This is very true; the only concern is that as is, Parent 1 visits on weekends and at most will take one child out at a time. Parent 2 will have to take a deep breath and let Parent 1 have all three in the family house (which as of now will be split 50-50 - no idea what that means for paying mortgage though…). If they want to introduce the kids to the concept slowly.
So I am thinking that telling the kids might not mean much if Parent 1 is not really around anyway, and the “visitation” will remain the same. Legal separation is now on the table, which means no one has to know that they are thinking strongly of divorce; if they are still married, they can present themselves as married to the school and to doctors and so on. Legal separation will identify primary custody with Parent 2 (hopefully and according to Parent 1 due to the sales job and travel), so fights over school and medical decisions should not be an issue.
If either wants to get remarried, they can get a divorce. But for religious reasons, separation might be a better idea anyway. There is not real animosity, more apathy.
(I don’t know how people do long-distance relationships - I was away from my spouse for three months and he visited every weekend driving 5 hours each way, and I was pretty much crying all the time he wasn’t there (well, not while I was working - we were changing jobs and he was finding a job near where I was, back near our parents). We didn’t have kids yet so spent every minute together all weekend until he went back to work.)
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Edited to add: I can tell you from my own family’s experience, though, that if someone tends to drink too much, that can be more of a problem after a divorce than before. In a two-parent household, if one parent drinks too much, the other may routinely do things to help ensure the children’s safety – like making sure that the parent who drinks doesn’t drive with the kids in the car after having too much to drink, checking that the doors are locked at night, and watching out for other risky things that an intoxicated person might do – like leaving food cooking on the stove and forgetting about it.
Once the parent who drinks too much is alone with the kids, there’s no second adult to compensate, and there may be more danger for the children.
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I have actually heard this exact same thing. The mom told me that she felt that she couldn’t divorce her H because her young children would be vulnerable in a car with him during visitations, etc. Plus, the H would drink during the day and likely wouldn’t be paying attention to what the kids were doing. At least while married, she was able to be “that parent” who drove, watched, and prevented risks. I don’t know how the divorce process works in cases like this, and things to vary by state, but imagine the horror a custodial parent would go thru each time his/her children were on some visitation visit with an alcoholic/druggie parent. The idea of a relaxing break would not exist.
I dont’ remember if it was here on CC or elsewhere where someone said that her ex-H’s parents would drink and drive and THEY would drive with her kids in their cars when her ex-H had visitations. She had little/no control over any of that. Scary.
@mom2collegekids, in the family in which I grew up, it was the * custodial* parent who had the drinking problem. It’s possible that today, a different decision about custody might have been made for this reason. But all of this happened a very long time ago.
That’s been part of my job As I mentioned elsewhere, I teach so am off in the summer, so I’ve been helping Parent 2 do research. There is a lot of it out there, but few sources regarding separation and/or divorce when couples have already been geographically separated due to work (I don’t know, maybe rock stars or actors and actresses who leave their family home?).
I am trying to deal with the fact that if I am “helping Parent 2 figure out separation and divorce”, I am agreeing that they can’t reconcile and I think that is a shame (and I would pretty much force my spouse into marriage counseling barring him taking a harem or anything substantially abusive to me or the kids, if he wanted to get a divorce). It is great to say “you must go to counseling or no divorce” but if someone adamantly refuses marriage counseling (not required in my friend’s state), can you make them?
Regardless of who initiates the divorce it is painful for everyone. For the parent who is given divorce papers sometimes it is a total shock. I would just remind them to take care of their health because the whole situation is stressful. (understatement) If you are surrounded by loyal family and friends that is the best thing you can have.
Yes, Parent 2 is trying their best. Do you know how hard it is to see a lawyer or counselor quickly?
There is so much info out there, and there is no way to tell if a lawyer is “good” or “bad” especially because of time constraints (both work full-time but Parent 2 does child care during the week).
@rhandco The first thing they will ask for is a retainer fee. They can go overboard with billable hours. If you are able to get an attorney who will handle the case at a fixed price vs charging per hour that might be better. If you can get a referral from somebody that might help. At the end it is the lawyer who wins with the amount they charge. I could have paid a year of college with room and board for what I paid and got nothing from it.
I will say that even this is not universal. I had a few friends whose parents divorced when we were in high school who were absolutely RELIEVED when their parents decided to call it quits. They liked and loved both parents, but the constant fighting and tension was too much and everything was much better after the split.
I have a lot of thoughts, as a kid with divorced parents and as a divorced parent myself. We are very amicable and friendly, my own parents and my kids’ dad and I. My dad stayed at my mom’s on a visit a couple of years back, I stayed at my ex mom-in-law’s last weekend when on a visit with D, heck I went to high school with my step-sibling’s stepbrother from the other side. It’s as good as these things can be all around. Not without conflict of course, but we all make a huge effort to spare the kids the drama and anger, he-said/she-said and such. For everyone’s sake I think this is SO important, if it’s at all possible.
But you are asking specifically about the vacation dilemma. It sounds like one parent travels a lot and the other is home with the kids all week. I’d tell the kids, together, about the divorce ASAP. Then I’d probably suggest the there-during-the-week parent take the kids on the vacation. It could be a nice time to process what’s happening and be together. The “secondary” parent could take them on a similar trip later on.
@rhandco , I just saw this thread. If your friend has not yet done so, along with interviewing and finding a good marital attorney, Parent 2 must:
– Have copies of all their financial documents – by that I mean pension, 401k account, and financial account statements and tax returns. Everything. Parent 2 will need these in order to give P2 and attorney a good picture of what will be divided in the settlement. Now is the time to do that and do it thoroughly. Not through discovery–that will be expensive. If there are missing pieces, then P2 may be in for a contentious fight.
I understand that emotions are foremost at this time but, inevitably, the settlement is going to be income and property driven. That’s where a friend may be most helpful–just to be supportive when emotions can be overwhelming.
If Parent 1 has already consulted with an attorney, you can guess that P1 is likely to have prepared himself. P2 is working from a position of disadvantage. Does P2 still have online access to accounts? That’s a good place to start her diligence.
As far as the jurisdiction for a divorce case, that is a fact-laden determination. But the first to file has an advantage though it sounds like they are both domiciled in the same state? Unless they have a multi-state lifestyle, it doesn’t make sense to forum shop if they just want to get the divorce done.
As I mentioned elsewhere, I teach so am off in the summer, so I’ve been helping Parent 2 do research. There is a lot of it out there, but few sources regarding separation and/or divorce when couples have already been geographically separated due to work (I don’t know, maybe rock stars or actors and actresses who leave their family home?).