Thoughts about value-for-money, while there is still time to adjust our lists

College Majors Musical Theater Majors
1

Not to put a damper on the holiday spirit, but I’ve been thinking a lot lately about paying for college. Here is a link to a sobering article about student debt and theatre majors. It’s not all gloom and doom, but it does spotlight the difficulty of launching a career in a hugely competitive field while also struggling with debt repayment. The comments at the end of the article (which is about a year old) are particularly insightful. A couple of them speak to the vast number of schools churning out theatre and MT BFAs each year, when only a tiny percentage of graduates continue on to successful performance careers. While we are all feeling right now that entry into the programs is staggeringly competitive, it is even scarier to think of what happens at the other end of the tunnel. Here is the link:

http://www.tcg.org/publications/at/issue/featuredstory.cfm?story=7&indexID=45

As you are looking over your audition list this holiday, I encourage you to think long and hard about the cost of each program and how your family is going to come up with the necessary funds. It’s easy to hope that in addition to winning admission, your kid is going to get great scholarship offers. But the fact is that colleges, despite their not-for-profit status, run as businesses, with a primary motive of maximizing tuition revenue. It’s so easy to get carried away by the “branding” of top schools, especially those that tout successful agent/job placements and alumni networks. Remember, too, that there is no school that can promise to make your kid a star or even increase the odds of that happening.

17 year old kids do not understand money, either in a theoretical or a practical sense. They just don’t. They don’t know that a student loan of just $6000 a year or $24000 over four years can balloon to twice that size over a surprisingly short period of time if even one missed payment escalates their interest payments. Even if they can get their dream-filled heads around the problem, they still won’t accept that long-term, career-crippling student debt might happen to them. There are dozens of horror stories on youtube, where adults earning as little as $15 an hour at age 30 are still facing $100,000 or more of college debt for bachelor’s degrees they’ve never been able to use. As your child’s advocate, I encourage you to start researching now and figure out how tuition will be paid. If worst comes to worst and there are no scholarships, where is the money going to come from? While dreaming of the big-name schools and full scholarships, take time out to plan for alternate options, such as staying in-state or going to a less glamorous school with better funding. Look beyond the CC school list to colleges in your back yard that offer great merit awards. Look at the syllabus for MT and you’ll likely find it is remarkably similar to the big schools. With the money you save, you could pay for extra outside classes, trips to NY for masterclasses, summer coaching, etc. to bolster your kid’s training.

So far, with one kid a college junior, our family has been fortunate to avoid student loans. It has taken huge modifications in our lifestyle to do that. Over the last four years we’ve cut back on everything–no trips, very few nights out or new clothes for parents, no cable, no new gadgets, cheap phones, no home-decorating or landscaping service, lots of rice & beans, part-time jobs for kids whenever possible. We’ll need to cut back further for our MT kid next year, hoping to maintain that “no college debt” goal. It’s hard, but I’d rather wear older clothes and eat beans than have my kids start out life with a boatload of debt.

Sorry for the long rant! I know how I get caught up in the excitement of great schools, but I think it is wise to add a couple of low-cost options, just in case.

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Many interesting points (and hard truths) in the article. I have a slightly different take on the idea of “value for money”. For me it’s about what is gained as a whole- rather than a ratio of earning potential. I think what my kid is getting is worth what I am paying. And even if she never makes a dime as a performer - she will have had an experience that will enrich her whole life.

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@toowonderful, I think of those things, too. Right now, i don’t think my 17 year old is able to handle the world on his own. College will give him four years to find himself, discover new passions, meet people from different walks of life, and basically grow up. I want him to do that in a safe, nurturing, but challenging environment. I find it’s easy to get caught up in his MT/Acting goals and lose sight of other reasons for attending college. Thank you for the reminder! However, it is the tuition/faculty/curriculum we are paying for and I think we should think through this huge financial decision and consider all options before choosing a big name/high-cost college. The growing up will happen, regardless of the campus.

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@claire74 - you are right that growing up happens no matter what :slight_smile: But I often urge parents working through BFA choices not to forget the REST of the college experience. Paying for college is certainly part of that, but so are many other things. I have said this many times- but a guideline in creating my D’s list was “if you wouldn’t want to be here without theater, then does it belong in the list?”. A long time ago, I read a thread on this forum where someone showed how it was WAY cheaper to go to NYC and take 4 years of the best classes in dance, acting, and voice than it was to go to most colleges. I urge anyone working through college to keep an eye on the big picture

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@toowonderful, I have to respectfully disagree about the “if you wouldn’t want to be here without the theater, then does it belong on the list” litmus test. Of the 16 schools my D applied for, there were probably only 2 that she would have even considered going to in a non-theatre major. Even the school where she ended up (Ithaca) would never have been on her radar without the stellar theatre program. I think that’s part of the difficulty (and irony) of a MT major. We got a lot of laughs out of responding to the question asked by non-theatre majors, “Where are you applying?” They hadn’t heard of half to 2/3 of the programs…most of the schools my D applied to were ONLY on her list b/c of the theatre program.

What we did instead is have 1 or 2 safety schools that she would be happy going to even without the theatre program. I don’t think anyone should rule out a school from theatre consideration if you wouldn’t want to go there in another major. I think that’s way too limiting…

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Good point @toowonderful. My older 2 were theater kids who detoured from the college path and invested the money we had in their college savings for training and launching themselves and they are doing well. While I think every child heading into a BFA program see’s themselves working as a performer when they graduate, the truth is it is very competitive and we need to be realistic. It’s tough to survive in NYC even when you book an occasional Broadway show. Those non Equity tours pay very little. I have several friends still supporting or supplementing their kids who are in their mid to late 20s and working regularly, but not being paid enough to support themselves on.

Health care is another issue. After turning 26 kids get tossed off their parent’s plan.If they are counting on insurance thru the union, it is not easy or something you can rely on receiving. Add the cost of paying back college loans and their own healthcare and it’s not easy to survive as an actor.

This is from the Actor’s Equity site:

How many weeks must I work in order to qualify for employer-paid health coverage?

In order to qualify for plan eligibility, you must have at least 12 weeks of covered employment in any 12 calendar months “accumulation period” to qualify for 6 months of coverage. If you attain 20, or more, weeks of covered employment in an accumulation period, you may qualify for 12 months of coverage. Participants are evaluated for health coverage eligibility after the end of each month and there is a two-month waiting period after the 12-month accumulation period ends before coverage can begin (e.g., if you had 12 weeks of covered employment for the 12-month period ending on December 31, your coverage could begin as early as March 1 the following year).

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@claire74 thanks for sharing that article. Also great point @Autmlvs615 regarding insurance! Very informative . I second the notion of attempting to go to school for MT as inexpensively as possible. We have already discussed this with our D that whoever comes back with the most $ will most likely be the choice as long as the program is acceptable. The problem I see in kids my D age is what you were saying … They have NO idea the ramifications of loan debt. Just the other day I had a problem w/ a dr bill that got sent to the wrong address and never got paid. I panicked since I thought they sent it to collections and it would show up on my credit report which right now we have strived our whole lives to keep excellent. My D was like " what does that mean?" & when I told her she was really surprised that something so minor could affect your ability to get a loan or good interest rate etc in the future. She barely recognizes the amount of money she will need per month just for living… car payment, apt rent, utilities etc. a student loan payment that goes unpaid even a month or two could really ruin your credit . The article said the kids coming out of college with loan debt have no clue how they’re going to pay for it. They were never schooled in that area beforehand. Now it’s too late. That is SO much stress on you after graduating. If you are wealthy or have the money to pay for your kids expensive school then that is awesome but a lot of parents do not have that kind of money. I fall into that category. I also would prefer not to support my kid for years after graduating college. Sure a bit here and there but not a lot. That’s what being an adult is all about. I get all the talk about “great experiences” and paying for that but that is just not reality for a lot of people. So many people are afraid for their kid to attend a program that is not a big name one with a big price tag. My D will have to accept the one she ends up in and make the most of it. That is one thing I won’t give in to, the loan factor. If she were accepted into CMU and we didn’t have the money to send her she would respectfully decline rather then take out the loans.

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@monkey13 - you are welcome to disagree, as is anyone else. Everyone’s journey is unique, and the only people who have to agree on a path are the people who are taking it. It’s interesting, looking back, there are a couple of schools that ended up on D’s list that shouldn’t have- b/c they didn’t fit the “would you like it without theater” rule- but it is easy to get sucked in by the idea of what is a “hot” school, or “all my friends are applying there” etc. And when we reminisce over the journey - (which she and I did just the other day, as she was getting ready to participate as part of a panel of BFA kids talking to college juniors and seniors about applications/ auditions) we laugh and say “what they heck were we thinking with ___________”.

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You must realistically assess your child and not put the blinders on that he/she does.

For instance, @toowonderful says she is willing to spend the money to give her child the pleasurable life experiences of college as a gift, rather than a means to an end. Fair enough. That’s a good choice for some, a bad one for others. Sometimes people can’t give that gift, they need to see a return on their money. They are not opposed to fun and personal enrichment but it’s of lesser priority. Folks have different views of parenting and what the limits are. No one can make a blanket statement on the right and wrong of college motivations.

But you must honestly admit who your child is. Is your child a tireless go getter? Someone who never sees an obstacle she can’t conquer? Or is she one who works very hard as long as things go her way or come easy to her? Is she a schmoozer who will range far to meet contacts and make friends from any class or walk of life or does she find it hard to go out of her comfort circle of nice theater kids with her values? Is he a golden boy- one of the lucky ones who seem to have all that’s needed to make it in this business? Maybe he is- there are many! Or does he have serious shortcomings in face/figure/aptitude?

You see where I am going here. For some students, going to MT college and then not making a career of it will not hinder their lifelong success. They will parley that experience happily into one of many careers because of who they are and how strong they score in the virtues of perseverance, temperance, patience, prudence, humility, diligence, and fortitude. ( you remember these). Other students are more like hothouse flowers, they wilt outside ideal environments. They become petty, dour, envious, and anxious and just plain angry when the going gets long with disappointments. Or they lose focus, impulsive to try the next great fix or fad and run the risk of never finding a program they can stick with. Some might have the tendency to get exasperated with life, spiraling into themselves and lose all confidence in their shortsightedness. Finally, some have the good nature to just put it out there, try their best and not be beat by what does or doesn’t happen. Who is your child?

Only you know your child and how college for MT will play out. Once you see that clearly you can make your plans for school and its budget with a more calculated eye. I might spend a whole hell of a lot on one type of child while another might make me reticent to even make a bet on a state school.

Above all, don’t beat yourself up for what kind of child you have!!! (It’s too late now to change him/her anyway.) Your child, like mine, was inborn with a temperament and shaped by more forces than just you! He is likely strong in some key areas and weak in others. It’s not bad parenting to take the rose colored glasses off. Discussing their shortcomings and good points charitably is part of the job.

If you do this, you wont’ be prey to the marketing of the big business of the higher ed industry. You’ll have a smart consumer mentality rather than a begger’s attitude and that is good.

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@toowonderful I agree and looking at the entire college experience was a huge part of making my D’s list. What did she want out of the college life really helped us narrow her list.
I know many students who switch majors or add on to their degrees during their 4 years at school and my D wanted to be somewhere where there is opportunity to enlarge her world with other areas of study. She wanted at least the chance, even if she doesnt join, to join a sorority, watch sports, meet kids in other fields, etc… This is just her list of what she wants, so the entire atmosphere mattered to her not just the program. Luckily there are plenty of excellent MT programs that are on a campus which include all she is looking for.

I have an older D making a living as a dancer who chose to give up her spot at a conservatory for a tour. She did miss having the college experience and has minor sadness over that but for her the training and auditioning was more important. After her tour she studied in NYC on her own. She has done musicals, music videos, tv, live performances etc… So I have two kids doing it completely differently which is fine.

Life as an artist is difficult and my younger D sees that as she watches the older one, but she also sees her complete joy over doing what she loves.

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@mtmcmt - ouch! You make it sound like I think of college as a spring break trip. Far from it- I just think it’s bigger than what you learn in one specific type of classes. College is absolutely a means to an end- but for me, the end is to become a well educated human, not a triple threat. (Which D won’t be anyway as an acting major rather than MT major, but that is beside the point)

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Speaking to HS kids not understanding the financial considerations of being an adult living on an artist’s paycheck, my S was fortunate enough to get a summer stock ensemble gig after his freshman year. The pay was decent as far as those things go. Housing w/o kitchen was provided at $50/week and the venue was located in an area with low cost of living. He had a bike for transportation. We provided a dorm-sized fridge and roommate provided a microwave. Half of his summer earnings went almost entirely to food (we also helped him stock up multiple times) - very modest entertainment expenditures (a few movie outings over the course of the summer and maybe a restaurant meal twice a week). It was a great early exposure to understanding what a minimum survival budget is like. His comment at the end was, “How do people do this in NYC or LA?”. He totally gets why we were adamant about not taking on loan debt.

The other day I asked him if his college choice might have been different if money had been no object. He said he doesn’t know, because he knew from junior high that money WAS part of the equation - always. He also gets that his terrific MT program is in a school he would most likely have not attended w/o MT BFA (the ONLY college option he was willing to entertain as a HS senior). Turned out he loves the whole school/campus atmosphere better than he ever would have thought, but his ideas of what he wants to do long term is also evolving. We predicted this would happen at any school he went to and exploring “cheaply” during undergrad was a good option for him and our family. All of our kids need to “grow up” and it’s hard to know what forms/paths that will take. Know your kid - as much as is possible - and help them find a place to hone their craft the way they envision it from their HS perspectives, while at the same time considering how far their wings MIGHT stretch in other directions. Hard to do w/o a crystal ball. Regardless, the ultimate decision will be different for every kid, for every family, for a multitude of reasons.

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@toowonderful I really wasn’t criticizing you at all! I was saying that if you have a child who is apt to just go and grow and will make the most out of life, go for the experience. The major of MT as a ticket to a particular career is not the important thing to some people. ( In reality, no one who goes to MT school should think it’s a ticket anywhere.) It seems, however, that many parents need college to be a realistic career path of some kind.

I think most people who had the cash or the assets to put a child through college more for the personal enrichment and education would do it.

I would.
But I can’t.

The opportunity cost of that money spent for college is too great. I need my student to make a living from what she learns in college. MT is a bigger risk for me. And, as I said before, I know my student. I know her learning curve, her temperament, how, for many reasons, she is apt to miss opportunities or see them too late.

It’s a complex assessment for all of us.

Another reason I can’t criticize anyone is that not only do people have different assets and obligations or lack thereof, but that truly, money means different things to people. That’s an important fact.

I wish everyone good luck in this process. It’s AWLAYS fascinating to read the information here.

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I think we all worry about this late at night to one degree or another. I keep the worst case scenarios at bay by considering that 1) my kid has worked every summer in theater since he started, 2) he has also had no difficulty in finding survival jobs, 3) he has learned a lot about living cheaply and 4) he is so very very happy. I’m not trying to candy coat it, but outside of accounting, nursing and engineering, most college degrees don’t guarantee much more than a BFA anyway.

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In examining schools’ value propositions it was important for us to consider not only the entire college experience, but also the lifetime value of the degree.

In spite of what we all think today, the reality is that ten years after graduating a huge majority of our kids will NOT be earning their livings performing (including grads who initially launch successfully into professional theatre). With that in mind, we were willing to spend more on a degree that would transcend a theatre career, since even beyond tuition the opportunity costs of 4 of the most prime years of our child’s life were very high and we could only fund an undergrad education once.

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@mtmcmt, I love your reminder to take a close look at how well our kids’ personalities match their MT goal–especially the hothouse flower (as I may have one of those in my vocal performance kid!). While you analyse their characteristics, though, I think it’s important to keep in mind the power of four year’s growth in a new environment away from home. My son started high-school aimless, disorganized, a bit of a loner, and uncaring about his grades. As I look back, I think his boy-brain just hadn’t clicked into gear yet. Once he got focused on an MT career and realized that grades matter, his GPA shot up, he participated more in class in all subjects, he was able to handle a lot of stuff outside school, and developed a great group of friends, both inside and outside theatre. The transformation over the last couple of years has been amazing to see. So even if you think you might have a kid who cannot take disappointment, lacks stick-to-it-ness, or is a hothouse flower, you might be surprised over how they are able to transform themselves. In many ways, I credit my son’s theatre experiences with helping him grow and changing him from a disorganized mess into a fully functioning young man. Still leaves his socks lying on the bathroom floor though.

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So much of this is personal to each family’s situation. Sometimes kids take on student loans, but parents agree to make the payments for them. If that’s your case, great. More power to you. But kids taking on student loans that they will have to pay 100% of with post BFA employment is scary in my opinion. There is a great new book from the founders of the Artists Financial Support Group in NYC (actors from NYU) called “Repaid: An Artist’s Guide to Student Loans and Financial Self-Advocacy” that everyone should get a copy of. Google it or look it up on Amazon.

From the book’s description: “Artists in the United States are graduating from training programs with unsustainable student debt. How do you plan for the future with a volatile income, when success does not necessarily equal financial stability? How do you pursue your art and still manage to pay your monthly student loan bill? Repaid explains student loan consolidation and repayment, budgeting on an erratic income, health care, and unemployment for artists. Artists need to know they are not alone, and their student debt can be repaid.”

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@MomCares
You know I would love to find a thread that tell us just that: How many MT grads are working on stage ( where they all dream of being) after 10 years. THAT would be an interesting thread.

I’m not trying to start a war, but you made a good point that despite success right out of the gate, and sometimes very impressive success, what is the number of grads that continues to support with a performing career.

And what do the vast majority do when they quit? Teaching, more schooling, off stage theater work, totally unrelated work?

If there were employment stats or studies that show what 10 years out looks like, I would really like to know.

I got a brochure from an academically challenging MT college that listed what everyone was doing over two-five years. There were very few examples of professional stage work. This could be due to the fact that the college was very selective and grads had more opportunity elsewhere.

We are all aware it’s not a huge percentage that stays in for a life time but it would be great to hear some successful examples of where people end up after a decade. It’s anecdotal but it would be a great thread.

@claire74 . You are completely right about the transformation that can come over a few years. I guess I was getting at the deep seated tendencies that often don’t change so much! I tend to pessimism too much. It’s ingrained. Ha.

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The closest I’ve seen are the annual Actor’s Equity reports on weeks worked by AEA members, but even those shockingly low numbers over count, since many (most?) people who graduate will never join AEA and many who stop acting also stop paying dues. We can all find anecdotes of successful actors from various programs, but few if any programs honestly report the percentages of their students who earn their living in the field 10 years out.

Keep in mind that many people stop performing even after booking steady work as they get tired of the insecure lifestyle of endless auditioning, tired of working nights and weekends, tired of moving constantly, etc. These career changes are NOT bad, they are often just a sign of growing up and the commensurate changes in priorities!

All of this said, for the past year and a half our recent grad has blissfully earned her living on stage and at this point still hopes to continue doing so indefinitely. Even so, I don’t think she feels her choice of a BA where she could double major has hurt her professionally, she LOVED her non-MT college courses and perhaps at some future point she will make professional use of that other knowledge as well.

I believe any college degree teaches important life skills that will carry over into non-MT employment, but I think that the possibility of future career changes is worth considering when choosing between college options.

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Good questions @mtmcmt. S’s HS voice teacher, (classically trained, masters from CCM) said most of the performers/musicians/artists he knew left the business after some years - not because they disliked what they were doing, but because of the lifestyle they had to lead in order to do what they loved. They got tired of “just getting by” and scrambling for the next gig. This teacher himself, said he could only “make it” as a classical singer if he wanted to live in Europe. He did the voice studio/church music leader gig (living in student-grade rental housing of various kinds) for awhile. In his early 30s, after scratching out a living in a lower-priced, mid-sized midwestern city for 5-6 years, he went to med school. I think for our theater/MT kids, the “pay-off” won’t make itself truly known until 10-15 after high school. That’s a l-o-o-ong up hill climb and a lot to wrap your head around when you’re 17.