Thoughts about value-for-money, while there is still time to adjust our lists

College Majors Musical Theater Majors
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@mom4bwayboy . I concur; the life right after college is going to be interesting and hopefully fun but unless you really have the stars align the best idea is to be thinking what happens after 30. I’d like to get my D to think about this but it’s a non starter. I get her reluctance but that’s when I start looking at the cost of school and wondering what I’m getting for a possible 10 year run.

@MomCares Thanks for the tip to the Equity reports even though it under represents. Other posters have talked about the fact that weeks worked also include a lot of ensemble and not roles necessarily.

A persistent guy I know from childhood did Chorus Line and Cats and then went out to LA in 1985 where he has done bit parts ever since, mostly TV. He’s still at it at 59. Side jobs keep him going in his small N Hollywood apt. I find it hard to think he believes he’ll ever hit it big at this point. Probably not the life we would want for our kids.
I know he hoped for much much more but the years just slipped on by. Yikes.

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@mtmcmt, the years will slip by just as quickly for those unmotivated and unambitious kids who while away their time playing nintendo and drinking beer in their parents basements, or for those who take jobs in cubicles that they don’t enjoy, or for those who take endless rounds of degrees and masters degrees, becoming decades-long students who spiral deeper into debt. We’re paying for four years during which our kids will work really hard, doing something they love, and keeping fit in the process. We’re also investing in a few years living off bread and cheese in a shared NYC or LA apartment, pounding the streets with friends and getting a few great gigs to keep their spirits up and their wallets temporarily full. As parents, we’ll get the thrill of seeing them onstage in major (or minor) venues and maybe a glimpse or two of them on TV or on the big screen. During college and afterwards, they’ll meet great people from all walks of life, know how to live on a budget, have some amazing experiences, figure out how to survive the ups and downs, and learn about literature, love, and life. They might decide on a different path, but they’ll have memories they’ll cherish and skills they can apply to any number of careers. Most of all, they will be living THEIR lives and we won’t have to do anything but watch.

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We didn’t budget for any post-college years (beyond a willingness to offer them room and board at home during occassional transitions). That part will (hopefully) be up to our kids to sort out. :slight_smile:

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@MomCares, I agree with you–I meant that our four-year investment will make them able to earn enough to pay for bread and cheese after graduation. Cutting mine off, too, after four years–it does them no good to be dependent on parents beyond their time in college. There is no better way to learn to be an adult than to be self-supporting.

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This is an excellent thread. Some really thoughtful points being made here that may initially sound at odds, but really are not at all. For example, I found myself in complete agreement with @toowonderful, @monkey13 and @mtmcmt (and others) even though you could also read parts of the message and think they were in conflict. I think they all work together beautifully and the common denominator always will be what makes sense for one’s specific circumstances.

We too end up with schools on my daughter’s list that after the fact feel like, “huh? what were we thinking?” But actually I can tell you exactly what we were thinking. We didn’t know. We also didn’t know what it is we didn’t know and were nervous to just role the dice. So for various reasons, schools that didn’t seem to tick all of the boxes but maybe some, or just one, were on it. Truth be told, we ended up with no schools on the list that ticked all of our collective boxes because the handful that checked every box my daughter had didn’t check my, “oh and by the way, can you also please shower her with merit aid so it will magically feel as if it is free” box. There was no such school for us and something had to give. Guess what gave?

And as I breathe a sigh about the answer to that question, can I mention that I only have one semester of part time tuition left to pay for and then I’m out and trust you to take it in the self-deprecating but lighthearted spirit that is intended?

Again, this is an excellent thread. Props to @claire74 for starting it. Lots of points to ponder here and I hope people read it closely.

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Different strokes for different folks, but we’re all swimming in the same pool with our rosy sunglasses on. Here’s lifting my umbrella drink to ALL our kids and their dreams of treading the boards. Much better than “Plastics”.

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Looking at the linked article posted by the OP, there are some things that give me hope, and others that scare me (and some that are downright confusing). Hope: Only 3.2% of those theatre grads in this survey were MT grads; 58% worked in the theatre or theatre-related jobs. Fear: 67.5% were female. Confusion: where is NY in that “US Region” graph? Mixed in with New England? Mid-Atlantic? I would have liked to have seen NY have it’s own category.

I agree that there are too many programs churning out too many kids. But it’s the kids creating the demand, and the schools are just meeting it. Every year there are more theatre programs popping up from schools that I have never heard of. And this begs the question (that is the elephant in the room): Does the school you go to make a difference? (I would argue that indeed it does.) Yes, there will always be those kids who are going to make it no matter where they go (or even IF they go) to school. But do the other kids sink or swim based on the training/connections at their school? Is it that the top tier programs attract kids who are going to make it anyway, or do they really offer better training that make these kids succeed? Is it worth sending your kid to brand new program X at Eastern Northern State? What about those relatively new programs that have a great “reputation” based on incredible marketing, but no record of success? I can’t answer these questions, but I know they are in the back of all of our minds. And then, the natural corollary is this: if there is a difference between programs and the success of the students, is it worth paying more for the ones that increase your chances of success?

Tough/impossible questions. Everyone answers them differently. Even people commenting on the article have different ideas about this. I thought it was interesting that one of the commenters said programs should cut more (something people on this forum seem to abhor). Another commenter said that it’s impossible to see an agent without a showcase from a good school (I don’t agree that this is true). But I think we can all agree that there are more people than jobs (that is true of the vast majority of fields these days), and that it is really, really hard to make money performing. How much you spend on school and how you pay for it is such a personal decision…and everyone will come up with a different answer.

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I agree. Lots of great thoughts on this thread. Here are a few other thoughts to ponder:

IS AN MT DEGREE LESS VALUABLE THAN OTHER TYPES OF DEGREES?
There seems to be a misperception among many that if you have an undergraduate degree in musical theater that you are prepared for nothing else after you graduate. Perhaps we should look at the degree from a more positive perspective. These students are gaining valuable skills that can serve them well in many different fields. They have the ability to present - whether on stage, in a boardroom, in a courtroom or in a classroom. They are very creative which can help them generate ideas for all sorts of companies. Marketing, communications and public relations are all fields that love theater majors. Arts administration, fundraising and event planning are other popular avenues for theater majors. Just because you are studying the performing arts does not limit you to performing upon graduation. Students and parents should expand their ideas of what their employment opportunities are post-graduation in addition to performance. There are many, many places and fields in which they can put their degree to good use.

MAKE YOUR TIME STUDYING MT MORE MARKETABLE.
College is much more than the degree you get and the classes you take. I would encourage students to take on positions of leadership and responsibility while in college whether it is serving their sorority, directing or stage managing a student production, serving as a leader for a campus organization or mounting their own show/fundraiser with friends. All of these activities will show marketable skills.Many employers would much rather have someone who shows leadership, energy, enthusiasm, a demonstrated ability to multi-task and the ability to present themselves and the company well over someone who has a business degree but no experience to speak of who is uncomfortable speaking in front of others. We are selling our kids short to say they are prepared to be nothing but an actor. Truth is, they have tremendous abilities that can be used in all sorts of professions.

NOT ALL KIDS WHO STUDY MT WILL GRADUATE WITH THAT DEGREE OR PURSUE THAT AS A CAREER
The truth is - 5-10 years post graduation, lots of people end up in a profession that is not directly related to their college major. If theater is what makes your child happy now, and they truly want to pursue it as a profession, and it helps them get talent scholarships to college in addition to academic ones, let them give it a try. They may be one of the many thousands of kids each year who discover other interests once they get in college and decide to change paths. And that is ok. You are not supposed to know for sure what you want to do with the rest of your life when you enter college. For many, it take some trial and error. You are at college to expand your horizons and figure out what you want to do. If you are worried about the time and investment you’ve made in MT being wasted by changing majors, think of it this way. If your pre-med student suddenly chooses to go pre-law, will you let them? Likewise, if your MT student deciders to study business, will you be ok with that? You should be. Be prepared for a possible change of mind about majors at some point during school. And help them really think through all of the pros and cons before making any final choices.

TRANSFERRING IS OK
Every year there are students who transfer schools or programs because they are not happy where they landed. This is not a phenomenon exclusive to MT kids. Just be prepared that it could happen and it is not the end of the world. They may transfer to another MT program. Or they may change schools and pursue a different major. Or they may just change degrees within their current school. All of these situations happen. And all can have positive outcomes.

LESSER KNOWN SCHOOLS OFFER MORE THAN JUST AN MT DEGREE
Many are shortchanging some really nice schools because they don’t have the same academic reputation as more well-known schools. (I’m referring to the so-called “schools you wouldn’t consider if it weren’t for their MT programs”). I am a true believer that you can get a great education just about anywhere depending on what you put into it. If you want to be academically challenged, check out whether you qualify for the honors program. See if there are any self-directed classes where you can study something that interests you more in depth. Or perhaps you have so many credits that you can possibly take some graduate school classes before you finish your program. See what’s allowed. There are all sorts of ways to challenge yourself academically. You must be proactive about it. Another plus is, at some of these “less” academic schools, you will probably qualify for more academic scholarship $ than you would at the top academic schools. Less debt! Yet another reason to consider some of these great MT programs at lesser known schools.

TAKE ADVANTAGE OF OPPORTUNITIES OUTSIDE OF THEATER AT YOUR COLLEGE!
Schools both large and small offer incredible programs and opportunities to their communities, things in which your students can take part. Do some in-depth research and ask about what opportunities these schools have outside of theater. You will be impressed with the events that will be made available to your child even at lesser known places. (of course they will have to take it upon themselves to take part!) Incredible speakers, Travel opportunities. Volunteer opportunities. Special Events. Do not sell these schools short. Encourage your student to take part in all their school has to offer. The opportunities are there if you seek them out!

YOUR DEGREE HAS VALUE NO MATTER WHERE IT IS FROM
Do not think a degree from these schools is not valuable in other fields. That is just not true. I’m not saying a non-theatre degree from Otterbein or Ithaca or OCU = a non-theatre degree from Northwestern. But you will find many of these schools have solid reputations in their region, even if not as well-known on a national scale. If you have a resume that includes a strong academic record and shows involvement and leadership in college, no matter what college you attend and even if your degree is in MT, prospective employers will talk to you.

IF MT MAKES YOU HAPPY, GO FOR IT!
Musical theater is a perfectly fine thing to study in college. Reality is they may choose to try to “make it” whether we let them go to Juilliard or to State U or if we let them study MT or business. Once they are adults, it is not up to us to tell our kids how to live their lives. It may not be the life we would want, or what we would choose for them. Do not feel obligated to support them. You’ve done your job. But if they are happy living the life of an actor, no matter how hard it is to make ends meet, so be it. I would rather them be happy with that kind of life than miserable in a job they hate. Obviously they need to be able to make enough on which to survive, but if they can figure that out, it is up to them to decide what makes them happy.

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@vvnstar, I love long posts, and this is a great one! You’ve rounded up and neatly packaged most of my pre-colleges hopes and fears.

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@vvnstar let me clarify my “schools you wouldn’t consider if it wasn’t for MT”. While academics played a role it was not the whole picture. I am fully aware that you can get a strong education at many different types of schools. On if my all time best students last year turned down American for Bowling Green (a mid level public in Ohio) b:c she could get a full ride in the honors college there. (She is a public policy major, nothing to do with arts, but still). She is happy as a clam.

For my D- some things were geographic. She had NO interest in being in the south (so kill Elon, Florida State, Tx State and many other HIGH quality programs). We both agreed nothing west of Mississippi (I didn’t want her to HAVE to fly every time) Some had to do with campus vibe - which was why tours BEFORE applying were so important to us. There were PROGRAMS she loved- but the setting wasn’t a fit- and as said above- the whole package was a very important part of our process of elimination. Those are the types we crossed off the list

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I understand @toowonderful. That is why it is wonderful there are so many different types of colleges and campuses that give kids the opportunity to study MT. There should be something that is right for most everyone. And I should have expanded on that point – I know people rule out some schools because of geography, campus vibe, etc… I would just encourage everyone to fully vette any schools they are considering before ruling them out (which I’m sure you did) because we found many of the lesser known programs had much more to offer once we dug below the surface, than what we originally thought.

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And, as @halfokum mentioned earlier- it can be really hard to find a school that ticks ALL the boxes. Here are 3 things that were very important to my kid:

  1. Being at least 2 hours away from home - preferably out of state (sheltered only child, wanted to spread her wings)
  2. Being in an major urban area of more than 500K people- the bigger the better (she did not respond well to they idyllic campus in the countryside- much to her father and I’s disappointment, that was OUR college experience and we loved it)
  3. A school where arts are important- preferably MORE important than athletics.

And yet- 3 schools that ended up on her final list:

  1. Baldwin Wallace - less than 30 min from our house
  2. Ithaca - not middle of nowhere (though it feels like it when you are driving there) but not a major city
  3. Syracuse - HUGE sports school.

So while knowing what you want is valuable- you also have to know where you are willing to make compromises

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Great post @vvnstar ! I have copied it to my husband who is seriously concerned with this MT major. For our D. Not in general, per se.

@monkey13 I think there is no doubt that the top 5 programs choose students who have a high degree of talent and the “it” factor. These are students who would succeed professionally even if they were at a “B” or even “C” programs, given hard work and persistence. The “A” program just opens the doors faster for them. It is a win for the college certainly.
For everyone else, especially those who come into the business without connections and money, the training and prof theater alliances that some programs have can really make the difference.

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I don’t care what anyone says, MT is definitely a pursuit that requires money. Connections are important but money is a key factor! The colleges if you go to a top tier one at least, the voice lessons, dance, acting classes, summer intensives, tickets to see shows so you can see live theater, etc. plus if you choose to live in NYC or a big city which is helpful then the cost of living there…as for the top kids coming out of top schools…I just don’t know the answer to that. The debate about that will go on forever. One of my D’s lesser known schools on her list doesn’t have tons of alumni success stories, only a few. However, one of this years graduates is in the current running of Color Purple so it does happen that not everyone on Broadway or on tours is from Univ of M , CMU, NYU etc. it just seems that way I guess.

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A substantial portion of successful professional actors did not attend college or did not major in theatre - one of d’s friend-of-a-friend Caitlin Ehlinger got the lead in the 42nd Street Tour while she was still in high school. Some schools certainly give you more of a “leg up” than others (for a finite and probably fairly short period of time), but, in the end, its what you bring to the audition room. And what you bring to the audition room is the culmination of how much determination, perseverance, and diligence you have applied to your training to maximize your talent, no matter where you went or who you know.

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The thread title is “value for money” but of course what matters is what YOU value, and how much money you have. Just deleted my list of possible things you could value, but you know what they are. Then there are those to whom $70K/year is not going to break the bank and others who would have to go into massive debt and/or use up the entire retirement fund to swing it. If the $70K is worth what you value, go for it. But think hard. It is easy to get caught up in the moment. If you get into the tippy top schools, maybe you are good enough to not even go. But keep in mind that even with a “top school advantage” it is really hard to make a living in this business. FWIW I feel like Montclair (my daughter’s school) is a tremendous value for the money.

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Interesting to know others’ perspectives on this topic. Though my DD decided to pursue a degree in theatre/acting, not MT, it is the same that to make a living in this field would be very challenging. She is fully aware of it, thus planning to double-major in business. We still have quite many auditons to go through and it will be in April to have all admission decisions and merit scholarship figures on out table to make a final decision. It will be a tough one - balancing available college fund distribution between undergrad vs grad (if that’s on her plan when the time comes), good academic school with less known theatre program vs well known theater school, etc. Ther are so many factors to ask a 18-yr old kid to take into consideration and decide within her parents acceptance. I remember when we visited Rutgers theatre dept, the dept counselor said “this program is only for those who have decided and know for sure the acting is your career”. We left soon after. That wasn’t for her. There are so many options and opportunities out there; it is hard to tell what really fits her.

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Wow @Guppie I’m surprised someone from that Rutgers would say that when they know darn well the kids are only 18 and may actually change their mind…duh !

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I wonder if they were talking about ability to double major, minor etc? That is a very common question for parents of BFA majors. At some schools it is doable- but the more “conservatory” a program is (and if I am remembering correctly fro research, Rutgers was pretty much full conservatory) the less room there is for other classes. I remember a similar question coming up at CMU- and the parent was given a similar answer- suggesting that if a kid had multiple interests, a BA program might suit needs better

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Course requirements vary even among BFA’s. DD has only a few BFA programs on her list, on which she confirmed would make a double major (strictly speaking it would be double degree - BFA and BS) possible. Others on her list are BA.