Tips on Improvement?

International Students
21

Guess what- thousands of international students all think the same way.

You need to radically rethink what prestige is in the context of getting an education, you need to spend some time learning about how financial aid works in the US, and you need to learn how the US Immigration system works right now.

Do a Math Olympiad if you love math. Do something you love- that’s much more impressive than checking boxes on a worksheet of “how to get into T-20 colleges in the US that will cost under $30K per year for four years”.

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22

In the end, you need two things:

  1. That will admit you
  2. That you can afford

The name doesn’t matter. You could get into one that will admit you - but you can’t afford. So that’s why you do Net Price Calculators in advance - so you can eliminate them. Or some of those - may have full ride merit scholarships that international students can obtain.

You can shoot for the most selective - and some have under 5% (well under 5%) international acceptance rates.

But if you don’t get into one or they don’t meet your budget need, you need to find one who will. They won’t be top 50 - however you’re evaluating that - but the names will be just as good. And then there’s small schools as you note - for example, LIberal Arts Colleges or other small schools on a regional level.

So there are options - but you need to be open to them if you want to come to the US.

Your ECs aren’t an issue. Just keep doing what you like and gain responsibility. It’s about quality, not quantity.

Like every international student who wants a free ride (something very few Americans get btw), your issue is budget and admissibility, not your profile.

So apply widely - not just to top schools.

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23

Yes that would be nice if you guided me.
For standardization i would take the SAT next year or next next year

24

Ye I really need help on this

25

OK, so one great thing to consider is this classic post from MIT:

You should study and carefully consider the whole thing, but here is the heart of it:

  • Do well in school. Take tough classes. Interrogate your beliefs and presumptions. Pursue knowledge with dogged precision. Because it is better to be educated and intelligent than not.

  • Be nice. This cannot be overstated. Don’t be wanton or careless or cruel. Treat those around you with kindness. Help people. Contribute to your community.

  • Pursue your passion. Find what you love, and do it. Maybe it’s a sport. Maybe it’s an instrument. Maybe it’s research. Maybe it’s being a leader in your community. Math. Baking. Napping. Hopscotch. Whatever it is, spend time on it. Immerse yourself in it. Enjoy it.

Again most of us are going to lack the familiarity with your school system necessary to really comment on the first thing in detail, but you should again understand that these colleges are looking for absolute top students across the board when it comes to Internationals with a lot of need.

Skipping ahead momentarily, the idea your ECs should be about pursuing your passions, and not checking off boxes, remains a struggle for many smart and ambitious kids. But one piece of advice I would have, not least for Internationals, is you DON’T have to think in terms of a lot of competitions for kids. Instead, you can do things that kids typically don’t do at all. Like, what sorts of things are happening in your community that adults do? Can you get involved in any of that sort of stuff? What would take you outside of your normal comfort zone but ultimately be really rewarding for you?

And then I think a lot of Internationals basically just don’t believe that Being Nice is so important. But it is! So how can you really do what MIT is saying, treating others with kindness, helping people, contributing to your community, and so on? How can this be more than a check box for you, but something that becomes fundamental to your daily life and daily interactions with others?

OK, then another great thing to consider is Episode 26: Should I Even Apply?, from the Inside the Yale Admissions Office Podcast. A transcript is available here if you search for Episode 26:

Again, the whole thing is well worth considering, but one I think can trip up Internationals ia number five, “academic interests that align with a liberal arts approach”:

HANNAH: All right. Number five would be academic interests that align with a liberal arts approach. And this kind of goes back to challenging yourself academically because you’re looking forward to challenging yourself in college. We don’t admit students who are going to come to Yale and study one thing in a vacuum. That is not the type of education we offer here at Yale.

It’s a place where students inform their studies across disciplines. And you need to really be excited about that in order to be a successful, happy Yale student.

MARK: I know that every year I’ve read some really accomplished and very impressive applications from students who have just done amazing things and they’re going to do great things in college, but they are just a terrible academic pick for Yale.

And it seems that they’ve applied to Yale less because they’re actually interested in the four year experience of learning here and more just because it has an impressive sounding and prestigious name. And sometimes they’re confused like how did I get denied? I’m so accomplished. And we say, well, did you know what you were signing up for?

HANNAH: Right. Right. We want to set you up for success. We want to admit students who are really going to thrive in that interdisciplinary approach.

It is pretty easy to see the basic issue. Lots of highly-qualified Internationals basically ARE applying to these specific US colleges because they have impressive sounding and prestigious names. They don’t really know much about, or otherwise don’t really place much real value on, the liberal arts tradition as practiced by Yale, and in fact MIT, and so on. And when these colleges sense that, it makes it easy for them to filter out the application.

So, first you obviously have to do your best to really understand what they are talking about, and why they value it. And then to the extent possible, you have to embrace those values yourself, and be prepared to authentically discuss those values when applying.

I think for many Internationals, this combination of things–being truly nice and understanding and embracing the liberal arts tradition–is so alien to their own country’s educational values, their own family’s values, even their own personal values, that it is very tempting for them to just focus on the things they do understand and value themselves. And that then makes it easy for these colleges to direct them into the 95%+ of Internationals they will be rejecting. Maybe they will do great at some other university somewhere, but they don’t see them as a good fit for their colleges.

26

Hey sorry for not replying was busy with exams and stuff but lets suppose for an example for deeper explanation I want to go to Harvard law school. I have my above stats as of now. How will you with the advice in mind get admitted into Harvard Law school?

27

Are you a citizen of Pakistan? If so, you should expect that regardless of where you study in the US for undergrad or grad school, you will end up returning to Pakistan when your education is completed. Becoming a lawyer in the USA who has studied US law and is prepared to take the bar exam to practice law in the USA (which your immigration status likely won’t allow you to do) seems like an inefficient use of your time and money, no?

1 Like
28

How did we go from top 20 / 50 undergrad to Harvard Law?

First, get into college in the US. Where you go to college likely won’t impact you getting into Harvard Law - your performance in college will. They have 163 colleges in their first year class of less than 600 - and some of those are international school, so you can go to school in Pakistan and get in there. People come from, as their profile notes, 26 international jurisdictions.

But given you don’t even have a way yet to pay for a US college (nor an admission), I would put law school way out of my mind.

29

Its just a hypothetical

30

I am gonna be very frank and this might offend you guys but as a 16y I have no knowledge on this. I heard and understood that you need to do ECs to get into these colleges but I was wrong somewhat. Now that I have opened a new can of worms I should do more research first. If you guys are willing to somewhat guide (which is a big favor) I would appreciate it a lot but if otherwise its understandable

31

Start with step one - but even if you want to go to Harvard Law, you don’t have to be in the US or at a top school to make it happen. They have kids from schools like Christopher Newport, Towson, U of whatever state.

So if you get a great ACT/SAT score and your GPA computes to a 3.5 or more, University of Alabama should come in under $30K. International kids get the same merit as US kids - but there’s health insurance, travel, etc. But that will be an easy admission, fine name, etc.

But you need to start with step one - finding an education in the US at budget - if that’s truly the goal. That gives you a safety valve in case the schools with full rides or that meet need don’t come through for you. There’s others too - from the Minot States to the Texas A&M International and many more - that should work too.

32

Let me explain my goal very clearly but if there is some ambiguity please tell.

I want to go to a top university in USA through a scholarship.

I want to do Law, Engineering or something related to Accounts.

I am currently a Pakistani Student but some of my family (aunt/uncle) lives in the US.

I currently dont know what my parents would give me but I assume somewhat around 20,000.
In Pakistan the focus is grades not ECs so I wanted to build my ECs with some recommendations.

33

Unless you win an Olympic medal or the like, your ECs are not what will make or break your college application.

You need a great SAT or ACT to get great merit at the places that award merit aid.

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34

Many schools don’t even look at ECs.

Sure build them up for a full ride but you don’t need ECs to attend a great U.S. college.

35

So I don’t understand how this statement pertains to your admission to a US university. Are you planning on living with them while you attend university?

Here’s what you need to understand: you are a student living in Pakistan who needs a scholarship to attend a US university.

If you are admitted to a school in the United States, it doesn’t automatically mean you’ll be immigrated. It sounds like you’re planning on it, based on the majors you’re considering. You need to remember that if you get admitted, you’ll be in the US for four years and then your student visa expires, and you will be returning to your country.

I understand that you may want to be in a top 20 school because that’s what your country would recognize. Given that you need money to attend, the top 20 “ain’t happening” unless you’ve cured cancer, or are an Olympic athlete, or can donate a hospital wing to that university.

I don’t think international students understand how our university system works. There are about 4000 universities in the United States. Some are public schools, funded by their state taxpayers and some are private schools funded by parent dollars. Some are community colleges. All of them pick and choose who they want based on a number of factors including academic preparation and funding.

Universities exist to provide future employees for US businesses. Because of that factor, there is a standard and level of quality EXPECTED at each university.

Universities are businesses. They expect to be paid to cover their expenses and profits. If US universities don’t meet an expected level of performance, they won’t get “paying customers”/students.

For a lot of international students, they seem to believe that if they only go to the top 50 schools, that the rest of the 4000 schools are not good. International students (and their relatives) don’t understand that the universities want to be accredited. Accreditation is conducted and supervised by the US Department of Education. The US wants a standard of quality that future employers expect. Just because the school may not be ranked 50 but 51, it doesn’t mean that #51 is not a quality school.

To get into a US university, as an international now, you need money and a lot of time spent, researching schools for scholarships, if you don’t have money.

By the way, there are no scholarships for law school. Law school is extremely expensive. Most Americans can’t afford the cost to go to law school.

There is no shortage of accounting majors in the US. Engineering is tough and a lot of students in those majors drop out. This means that you won’t be given extra years in the US to train in those fields.

You need to first find out your college budget and what your parents can comfortably pay. Full rides are almost nonexistent.

36

Successful applicants to the most selective US law schools typically start with very good grades, stellar recommendations, and very high LSAT scores. Contrary to what another poster suggested, I think exactly how high your grades and how superlative your recommendations really need to be can depend somewhat on which undergrad program you attend, meaning I think there is a bit more room for error at some undergrads than others.

That other poster will point out a variety of undergrad programs might sometimes get 1-2 undergrads into a school like Harvard Law (and other years none). But other undergrad programs annually get many times that many into Harvard Law. Indeed, there are small LACs regular placing many more students into the most selective law schools than much larger public universities. And there are far too many very good test-takers graduating from those publics for LSAT scores alone to explain that difference.

So that implies you don’t have to be one of the top couple law school applicants in your class coming out of some colleges (not mediocre either, but not necessarily absolute top), but do coming out of others. And there is other information supporting that conclusion.

Anyway, those are sometimes known as the “hard factors”, and then for the most selective law schools, you will also tend to need very good “soft factors”. This can be a variety of things, including extracurriculars during undergrad, post undergrad work experience, and other graduate or professional degrees before law school.

37

What’s the plan- practice law or become a CPA and work in the US? or go back to Pakistan?

We need context.