<p>I totally agree with you that the question is not debt vs. no debt, but how much debt actually worth it. In our case, we’re not talking about a 200K loan; I wouldn’t have even considering this type of debt as an option, even if he gets into his dream school (and I am very much aware of the "if’ factor). We are able to help him out, though being that his our first (out of four), we cannot cover his full private schools tuition (Ivy or other). </p>
<p>Thanks for bringing up the PhD option. I am a cheerleader of higher education and being a PhD myself (in psychology, not econ) I can see where you’re coming from. That said, you’re talking about a very lengthy process and it’s not a good fit for everyone. In fact, I do not even think it’s necessary in the field of business, unless one is interested in pursuing a career in academia. In fact, Wall Street, IB, and consulting companies recruiters seek undergraduates for internships as well as for jobs upon graduation. </p>
<p>My son is definitely planning on pursuing an MBA at some point, though no top MBA program will admit a candidate who does not bring at least 5-6 years of work experience. This fact pretty much sends the message that undergrads are expected to get a job, gain experience, and then pursue an MBA - which btw makes a lot of sense, since MBA is based on hands-on knowledge, and is in fact a professional degree (in oppose to a PhD, which is academic/theoretical in nature).</p>
<p>So… I’m pretty much back to square one; well not really… the wealth of info, advice, and experiences that so many were kind enough to offer allow me to analyze the issue from additional perspective, which is great. For instance, I believe that choosing a school that has strong recruitment services, and specifically within the NYC financial industry is a must for my son who aspires for a WS/IB/consulting job upon grduation. </p>
<p>jym626 - Thanks again for the info and for your kind words. Following your posts I spoke with my son who is now actually looking further into some national and regional scholarships that he was aware of, but really never took into consideration applying for…
Even 5K or 10K can help, not to mention the renewable ones or the ones that offer larger amounts.
Thanks again.</p>
<p>glido - true; not all Ivies are the same, especially when taking into account a specific major or long term job plans. Our son’s dream school is Columbia for many reasons including their great econ department, amazing networking and career services, wealth of WS/IB/consulting internships (that can really be helpful in reducing college loans), its NYC location, it proximity to us (NJ), the campus atmosphere (we’ve visited several times and he loved it; the place where he mostly felt ‘at home’) - to name just a few.</p>
<p>pizzagirl - I hear what you’re saying, and I agree with you that stirring ones life in the direction of making seven/eight figure salary sounds pretty shallow, and probably misses the value of education. More so, and as I tell my kids (as well as my students) (I teach college psychology) - it’s great to have a plan in mind, but make sure you choose a path that you will truly enjoy. It is my belief that achieving something is incredible, but it is nothing in comparison to enjoying the ride that led to it.</p>
<p>In our son’s case - he is the type of a person that will not go on a ride unless he expects to enjoy the journey. Since he was very young he was learning for the sake of learning, not for the sake of grades/praise (which he also found rewarding, of course). He is intrinsically motivated, curious, and passionate for knowledge. I do not even think that he is considering a seven/eight figure salary - it’s not his way of thinking. Rather, he wants to attend a college where he will feel challenged intellectually and happy socially. A place that will offer him a variety of experiences, and that will open doors for him. By opening doors I’m not referring to the degree or the name of the school doing the work for him; but rather giving him the edge to excel as much as he can. He is willing to work very hard for it. In fact, he’s planning (if admitted), to pursue a major that is considered very demanding an rigorous one (a condensed double major), and on top pursuing a minor in a more quantities field (such a computer science).</p>
<p>He is not looking for a free ride to success; he’s willing to work for it as hard as needed and if he will land at a seven/eight figure salary one day - great, but it is not the goal he has in mind; he is excited about the ride.</p>
<p>My pleasure, falmamom. When I get home this evening I’ll pm ypu with info on anothwr scharship that may be of interest. In the meantime you can check fastweb. They have a ton of scharships and will notify you,after you register, of upcoming deadlines, new scharships that fit your sons profile, etc</p>
<p>Thanks, jym626! I look forward to your PM
My son is familiar with fastweb, though the number of scholarships seems pretty overwhleming. He’ll need to do some more homework and figure out the best way for him to apply using fastweb.
Enjoy the conference =)</p>
<p>Here’s something to keep in mind - all those bright , wonderful kids who don’t go to an Ivy, go somewhere. And there are a lot of them. If your son doesn’t end up at his dream school, he is still quite likely to find ‘his people’ and a challenge as well.
I know, for example, quite a few very bright people who went to big state schools. They found the other smart kids - often because the U had special programs and/or housing for them. They found challenges. At one big state U, the smart kids in a certain program had 1) first dibs on seats in all courses 2)all pre-reqs wavied. You can bet that they had a fine time.</p>
<p>nemom - please do not get me wrong. I’m neither saying nor thinking that all the smart kids attend Ivy schools and/or that non-Ivy/elite schools do not have incredibly smart students. Not even close. In fact, as a professor of psychology at a non-Ivy college I have the pleasure of working with bright students I have no doubt will be very successful in life.
I also believe that my son can be happy, challenged and successful attending a non-Ivy/elite school. The problem is, that he doesn’t seem to see it that way… he has his dreams (and hopes) very high; possibly as a result of years of hard work, impressive track record, and… the fact that his high school’s culture pretty much expects its best to end up at such schools. His best have very similar goals (different Ivy schools, but still Ivy/elite), so I assume that the idea of not attending one is being perceived by him as a “failure”. And trust me… we are not pushing this way; in fact, not only that we visited a variety of schools, but I also encourage him constantly to consider colleges that are very likely to offer him a nice package.</p>
<p>I have a general question (sorry, am new at CC)… I received many PMs and in the process of responding. Today I noticed, however, that I received a “Visitor Message”… Not sure where it came from, and cannot find the ‘reply’ option… Please advise…
Thanks.</p>
<p>I personally do not ever answer Visitor messages. Anyone can read those replies. I write down the screenname and politely write the person a PM (private message) and ask that they do not send me visitor messages. Then I delete the visitor message. Just my opinion.</p>
<p>"The problem is, that he doesn’t seem to see it that way… he has his dreams (and hopes) very high; possibly as a result of years of hard work, impressive track record, and… the fact that his high school’s culture pretty much expects its best to end up at such schools. His best have very similar goals (different Ivy schools, but still Ivy/elite), so I assume that the idea of not attending one is being perceived by him as a “failure”. "</p>
<p>Sounds so familiar. DS was fully qualified academically for Stanford, dad was an alum, his private HS is a feeder for Stanford and 40-50 % of graduates either end up there or at Ivy’s/ top 20 colleges. DS not only had his hopes set on Stanford, but we all made the mistake in thinking that they would not turn down someone so qualified. Both HS and we were shocked when he was deferred, then rejected. That was 5 years ago. [ he was eventually accepted at every other college he applied to, including 2 Ivys, and 10 other top 20 U’s or LAC’s] </p>
<p>I strongly suggest that you, as a mom and as a psych prof, need to do more than just make suggestions of other colleges, especially these days. You need to open his eyes to the statistical likelihood that he, along with 90% of all the other applicants, will be rejected, especially IF any of the following apply- he does not have a hook, neither parents are alums, he is not a URM, or DA, or child of professors there, or a recruited athlete. Then take the % that is left available to unhooked students and divide that by half- since colleges accepted M/F’s on a 50/50 % basis. That is closer to his actual % “chances” of acceptance . If he does end up being accepted, then he can rejoice!!! Otherwise he will be better off, and less likely to be crushed if he gets the thin envelope if he is prepared to expect that he will most likely be going to college elsewhere. DS had the worst possible Dec vacation imaginable, having to quickly get over the shock of deferral at Stanford and what that meant[ deferral = a gentle way of letting them know that they most likely wont get the an acceptance in April, since 90% of deferrals are rejected] and then having only 15 days to write many more application, and essays and send them out before the Jan 1 deadline.</p>
<p>Falma, I’m not sure how folks post visitor messages. I’m not 100% positive others can see them, but I figure if someone really wants to communicate ONLY with me…they can PM me…or send me an email (that option can be either enabled or disabled depending on your preferences). </p>
<p>Anyway…one thing that is conventional CC “wisdom”. Your son should cast a wider rather than narrower net. It sounds like this is already in your plan…but regardless of his desire (or not) to attend a specific school, he should also have a good variety of schools to which he applies…including his favorites that might be a reach (or not…some kids have number one choices that are NOT reaches), some match schools, and some true safety schools in that he is guaranteed admission AND the finances will work AND he would attend happily if accepted. Most say students should work from the bottom up. It’s a lot harder for some to find that safety school than it is to find the favorite/dream school.</p>
<p>There are so many wonderful college choices out there. Look at the characteristics your son wants in a school and go from there. And have fun with it all. </p>
<p>Remember too, that students like and dislike schools for the most seemingly random reasons.</p>
<p>menloparkmom - Thanks for sharing your experiences; it is very much appreciated.
I 100% agree with you! Too many seniors from my son’s high school (an Ivy feeder school) were rejected or deferred then rejected from their dream schools. Luckily, while having high hopes/dreams, my son is also realistic enough to realizes his chances are pretty slim (and even slimmer being "hook-less). He is looking into other schools that fit his preferences, but I also know that he will feel quite disappointed if forced to attend any of them - which is a huge drawback.
That said, I also know so many kids who were rejected from their dream school and ended up at a school they were not too excited about to begin with, but ended up loving it. So there’s hope =)</p>
<p>As I had mentioned in my post to menloparkmom, my son is indeed looking into a variety of schools - reach, target, and safety. I agree with you that identifying the reach ones are far more easy than finding a target (let alone safety) school that he likes. </p>
<p>He’s planning on also applying to several safety (still figuring out which ones), and target schools (in progress). He already found a target school (maybe more of a safety school given his profile in comparison to the school’s stats) that he will be okay attending. The program he’s interested in is a dual degree program, very rigorous, and the college’s only honors program (and the most selective program they offer). The campus is gorgeous, and he likes the fact that it’s not too far from home. The only drawback for him is that it’s considered more of a ‘party school’ with heavy Greek life, which he’s not too excited about as he knows he is likely not too fit in. </p>
<p>He’s also planning on applying to some general honors programs, which is also another venue that could work for him. That said, he’s not really excited about attending any of them… his mind is so set on attending an Ivy/elite school (be it his dream school, or one of the others on his ‘reach’ list) that I’m really concerned that he’ll be devastated in the face of rejection (which may as well be the case given the low acceptance rate)…</p>
<p>“That said, I also know so many kids who were rejected from their dream school and ended up at a school they were not too excited about to begin with, but ended up loving it.”
add my son to your list. Going to USC [his financial as well as literal safety- 5 year ago, USC accepted over 40% of applicants] has turned out to be a blessing for all of us- he got into the top rated PHD program in his chosen field in the nation -his ultimate dream school- and has no debt to worry about in the future.</p>
<p>That’s not what you said. You weren’t referring to “students” in the following post, but to your daughter specifically:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Except for two teeny tiny important details:</p>
<p>(1) You don’t know now, and didn’t know previously (since she did not go to Princeton) that she could have graduated in three years, since this is the full policy that you neglected to cite:</p>
<p>From Princeton’s Advanced Standing page:
</p>
<p>And the ‘table’ that the page refers to further modifies the information for any particular student.</p>
<p>So, wrong on the first: that a parent can predict whether advanced standing will reduce by a full year a particular student’s residency at Princeton. Depending on the courses, the scores, and Princeton’s allowances, the reduction may be part of a year or a full year.</p>
<p>Further:
</p>
<p>Further, elsewhere on the Princeton site it is indicated that:
~AP course credit never replaces the University’s extensive distribution requirements.
~AP course credit never eliminates all the writing-course requirements for Princeton underclassmen.</p>
<p>Neither a double-major nor a triple-major is allowed.</p>
<p>The only reason I draw this out is that you are fond of prophesying to CC parents on supposedly what would have happened had they made the same or similar choices to those of your family. But number one, your facts are sometimes wrong; therefore, the prophecy lacks validity on its face. Number two, predictions cannot be made even on the basis of accurate facts, since the variable is always the student – how the student will respond to the environment, and all the other factors & variables that are not predictable positively in one environment or negatively in another.</p>
<p>epiphany - what’s your point? Just because you showed POIH all of those facts, it doesn’t mean he is wrong. As a matter of fact, he is never wrong. But I applaud you for trying.</p>