To Ivy, or not to Ivy

Applying to College
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Hello all. This is going to be a long conversation, so thanks to all who read and reply.

I’m about to graduate from Bucks County Community College with an associate’s in history. I’m very interested in persuing a Doctorate program in history, and I would love to prestiege of an Ive league school such as University of Penn. However, I wonder if I should even attempt to try it out.

I’m not a college preped baby. I went to Bucks county technical high school, where I passed with relatively low grades in 2019, I did not like school before and never planned to go back. I still haven’t done an SAT or ACT test. After failing to find a good job for a few years, I decided to go to college. I was very ignorant, so I decided to start with the community college to see if I’d like it and save money. I loved it in fact, and right now I have a 3.66 GPA. However, seeing as I have a lower GPA, no standardized testing, and I have absolutely no outstanding credentials (never was a club leader, didn’t excel in sports, was not top of my class, etc,) and I have to work as well as schooling to make ends meet, I feel as though I will not do well enough for UPenn. While I would love the idea of getting into this college, I also am trying to have a realistic outlook on it. Even if I get in, I don’t know if I could keep up with the curriculum. I was considering transferring to Swarthmore college to finish my bachelor’s, they will take more credits than UPenn would and I think it might be a good transition into the high level schooling, but I also feel as though I’m at a lower level than all the students attending there, I will not fit in and I will likely fail.

I know it’s not really my whole life story here, and I will answer questions honestly to all who reply. I just want some thoughts from current or prospective students looking into UPenn. My family and wife are telling me I’m aiming too high and should just stick to a normal Doctorate program, but I feel ambitious as well.

Thanks again for reading!

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Please do a chance me/match me thread. The information you are providing here is not complete.

I would also suggest strongly that you talk to the transfer advisor at your community college. See what colleges have articulation agreements with your community college.

What do you hope to do with a doctorate in history!

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My understanding from your post is that you will soon have an associate’s degree from a community college, but do not currently have a bachelor’s degree. If I got this right, then where you go for a PhD is a question for well into the future. This is something that you do not need to decide now, nor anytime in the near future.

It is very common, for students who end up getting two or more degrees, for the last degree to be from a different university compared to the bachelor’s degree. For students who end up with three degrees (such as bachelor’s, master’s, and PhD) it is common for two of the three degrees to be from the same school, but it is also possible for all three degrees to be from three different schools. Just for examples, I have a sibling with a bachelor’s, master’s, and PhD, and his first two degrees were from one university, and his PhD was from a different university. I have a bachelor’s and master’s from two different schools. If I had gone on for a PhD (I very seriously considered it) then it would have been from a third school, primarily because their program was a better fit to what I wanted to do. Either approach is common. Getting a PhD from the same school where you got your bachelor’s is possible and does happen, but is quite a bit less common compared to switching universities at some point.

Also, graduate students at highly ranked universities (such as U.Penn) typically come from a huge range of undergraduate schools.

So, right now you just need to think about where you want to go to complete your bachelor’s degree.

It is also not that unusual for students to be much better students as they mature. Thus a poor record in high school and a strong record in university has occurred before. When you apply to PhD programs, then will not ask and will not care what you did in high school.

So, right now you should be thinking about where to go to complete your bachelor’s degree. How many credits carry over from your associate’s degree is an issue to be considered.

Swarthmore college is a very good school with a very strong reputation. I would expect that quite a few graduates from there go on to get some form of graduate degree. However, I think that it would most likely be a reach for you to apply right now. You might get accepted, but you should also apply to other schools where acceptance is more likely.

I am not completely familiar with your background. However, from what you have said it sounds to me like starting at community college was the exact right thing for you to do.

My suggestion is that you also consider your in-state public universities. If you are in Pennsylvania, then Penn State and Pitt might both be worth considering. If you are looking for a smaller school such as Swarthmore, then there are a very large number of very good liberal arts colleges that are a possibility. Just which ones are in your area and are good for history is something that I am not familiar with. However, the transfer advisors at your community college should be able to help you.

Perhaps the first thing that you should do, other than keep ahead in your current course load, would be to make an appointment to talk to a transfer advisor at your community college.

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You don’t need the prestige of an Ivy to do a PhD. But if you want to apply to an Ivy, then great - but like all - have back up schools.

Here is the PhD feeder list. If you go to the right side, you’ll see the per capita - so who is placing a higher percentage.

If one doesn’t apply, they can’t get in. I agree with the high aim part - but as long as you have an assured and affordable, you are good. Are you on looking in Philly? Then if so, add Juniata, Ursinus, St. Joe, Lasalle, West Chester…whomever is local or close enough.

UPenn admitted 145 of 4521 transfer applicants last year - so are you getting in? Statistically not - but again, you have 0% if you don’t apply.

Swat admitted 0 of 345 apps - yep, 0 per CDS - and they note due to space concerns - the exact wording as published - “Because of space concerns, no offers of admission were able to be made to transfer applicants.”

I agree with talking to your transfer advisor and you might talk to you Penn. You’ve probably seen the link below. Also know, there are cost factors - it’s near $100K a year unless you receive aid.

Definitely talk to folks, etc. but nothing wrong with having high aspirations as long as you have someone on the other end of the barbell acceptance and affordability wise.

Not in Philly but Dickinson and Gettysburg make the top feeder list per capita…as does Penn which is lower than both.

You might also talk to departments at the different schools (like Juniata, etc. - are they sending kids to PhD…what type of supports are there to do so, etc.).

Good luck in your journey.

Top Feeders to Ph.D. Programs

Application Requirements & Deadlines | Penn Admissions

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THIS.

Again. Please talk to the transfer advisor at your community college.

If you don’t want to move to a new place, look at the colleges near you that award bachelor degrees. Get your bachelors, then during that time, you can tease out what to do next.

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As others are suggesting, this path is a marathon, not a sprint. So you can take each phase at an appropriate pace.

In your case, you have already traveled quite far from where you were in HS to now. That’s great! You can now move on to a four-year program. Your goals will be to get an affordable but excellent education which builds your knowledge and skills, and continue exploring your academic interests. I agree your CC transfer advisor may be a great resource. If you want some more suggestions, you can do a full Match Me.

Grad school is not an immediate concern, but starting where you are, it definitely not too early to start building relationships with professors. Be engaged in classes, understanding other students need the same opportunity. Feel free to further engage outside of class, including during office hours. Perhaps start looking to see if you can do some research as an undergraduate. If there are things like departmental events, make sure to go to those whenever possible.

Eactly what will come next after that is not knowable at this point, and that is fine. But as long as you keep costs under control and focus on getting the most you can out of wherever you go, then you will end up with good options for those next steps. And likely also mentors who can help you make those decisions when the time comes.

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Thanks for the response. I will set up a chat with my transfer advisor, I just also wanted to hear from others what their thoughts were. I know its unlikely for me to get accepted into Swarthmore right now, but I can go over that with my advisor. I had looked at a handful of other colleges for my bachelors as well, those I would more likely get accepted into, such as Immaculata or West Chester university.

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Hey, I plan on getting into education and research. I know to become a professor at most colleges I’d need my doctorate, but I do know that community colleges offer jobs with just a masters. This post was just me shooting in the dark, I know I’m planning way far ahead but it was on my mind and I wanted to talk about it with people who have experience in the field already.

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Swat took no transfers. Haverford, on the other hand, 24 of 194 applicants.

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Here’s the story of someone who followed your path and became a PhD college professor, a published author, and successful blogger:

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One of my kids teaches at the community college level. They hire precious few full time masters level professors. Most are adjuncts and the pay and job security are not there. You need to do some more research on community college masters degrees instructors. I will add, my kid works at one of the largest and best established CC systems in the country. They hire him for four courses over term…because five would be a full time job…and they don’t want to pay for that…and the money hasn’t been allocated for a full time job.

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Wow that sounds like a struggle for your child, sorry to hear that. Thank you for letting me know that, I didn’t know that CC professors had it that difficult. Is your child looking into finishing their doctorate then? And would you recommend getting my masters, then working for a little before going for a doctorate? That’s what family and friends tell me to do. They say that it’d be difficult to get a job with a doctorate and little to no work experience. But I feel like if I’m going for my doctorate, I want to do it all in one go.

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I will look into Haverford, thank you.

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It’s not a struggle as it’s one of several freelance jobs he does as a musician. But take not…adjuncts don’t earn full time faculty salaries.

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First…get your bachelors. I would suggest you go to the career center at the place where you get that four year degree, and discuss options with them. They might have some ideas that align with your interests, that will also pique your interest.

Right now…you shouldn’t be worrying about anything but getting your bachelors degree. Then go from there.

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The tenure track job market for humanities PhD’s is not great right now, and many are adjuncts for relatively low pay and no benefits. I second the advice to just concentrate on finishing your bachelor’s degree. One of my kids left residential college and finished a degree while working. There are many programs that allow for that. In the meantime take a look at Colleges that Change Lives at ctcl.org.

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Hi - I’m a history professor, so maybe I can shed some light on short and long-term plans. You’re just finishing your Associate’s degree, so it’s a bit of a leap at this point to be thinking about Ph.D. programs.

First - you do not need to go to an Ivy or equally prestigious LAC to get into a strong Ph.D. program. At universities, very few students in a discipline like history remain in the same program for grad school. So a BA at Penn, for example, likely won’t mean a Ph.D. at Penn. Rather than focusing on future doctoral programs, you simply need to do very well in college, produce some good undergraduate research and writing, and get to know your professors well enough to get good recommendation letters. In thinking about transferring, think about colleges with strong history programs, but these can be LACs, publics, or anywhere, really, as long you don’t transfer to a school that’s actively cutting humanities. It does help to graduate from a school with some name recognition among academics (I know this because I teach at a regional public with relatively little name recognition outside my area, and our top students have trouble getting into top Ph.D. programs, regardless of how talented they are). But lots of schools have name recognition. It would help to find someplace where you are eligible for generous financial aid. It’s not that Ph.D. programs are terribly expensive (getting financial support in the form of grants or assistantships is typical), but if you’re going that route, it will be many years before you’ll earn a real income again, so you need to plan ahead and not spend too much on education now, if you can avoid it.

Second - You don’t need an Ivy Ph.D. program to have a career in academia. If/when you do apply to Ph.D. programs, you should do so based on strength in your intended field, not based on overall prestige. In other words, applying to Ph.D. programs is not like applying to undergrad schools – you’re searching for a mentor as much as you’re searching for a degree-granting university. Yes, some prestige helps, but prestige comes from your mentor as much as it does from your university, and an Ivy-or-bust mentality makes even less sense for grad school than it does for undergrad. By the time you get to that point, your undergrad advisers should help you find appropriate programs that have top scholars in your field.

Third – Please consider alternative career paths and other uses for your anticipated history degree. The job market for academics is horrible, especially in history and the humanities. Between the sinking job market, evaporating funding, and the coming demographic cliff (which will, temporarily at least, mean fewer college students), doctoral programs are limiting admissions. There is work for adjuncts but it’s low-paid and comes with no guarantees for continued work and no benefits. Yes, you can teach at a community college (and even some 4-year colleges) as an adjunct with an MA, but that is not where you want to spend the rest of your career (there are some tenure-track positions at CCs for those with MAs, but not many). Plus, if you’re a non-traditional student, you’re already getting a late start. Finishing college + a Ph.D. program + years of adjunct teaching –> starting a career in your 40s with no retirement savings.

Keep options open as you move forward. Happily, there’s a lot you can do with a history degree, some of which uses historical expertise, and some of which uses the analytical skills you gain as a history major. I always recommend that my students check out this information as they think broadly about their futures: Careers for History Majors – AHA

You can remain more nimble if you think about various MA programs that can set you up in applied fields and give you the background to apply to Ph.D. programs if you’re interested in pursuing that option. Think about MA programs in library science, museum studies, public history, and similar fields.

So - focus on your BA for now, and look for the school that will provide you with the most resources (including internships that are history-adjacent) and are the best academic and financial fit. You can wait to figure out what options you should explore for grad school.

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@Shelby_Balik, what are the opportunities to get free tuition and/or pay or a stipend as a PhD student?

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It’s important to note that with financial need, it can be wise to find a master’s degree that is also funded. This may include programs where the master’s is part of the PhD (but the best option is to have that situation AND the ability to leave at the end of the master’s). In other words, look into details. My kid got a PhD with a master’s along the way, and also had that option to leave between the two degrees. Stipend was not really enough to live on, tuition was free, and lots of teaching experience including curriculum development.

But first, a bachelor’s! And maybe exploration of job opportunities after that degree before devoting 7 more years to a doctorate that may or may not have a reliable career outcome.

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Chances are much higher that, as a history major, you will pursue a law degree (JD) rather than a PhD. History majors tend to be high earners in the law field. PhD tenure track teaching positions are rare in today’s market.

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