<p>Jym, it doesn’t sound like this is a very likable person who knows how to be a friend. Why are you still friends with her?</p>
<p>In my family, my mother in law is willing to pay for all of the kids and their spouses when they go out to dinner, except for my wife and me. She has made it clear for our entire relationship that I am responsible to pay for her and pay for myself. She thinks that I have plenty of money, and therefore I can pay my own meal.</p>
<p>(Now, technically, all of the kids don’t go out at the same meal. But we find out that other kids had their meal paid for.)</p>
<p>So, when the occasions occur that I go out to dinner with them, I fully expect to pay our own way and I specifically ask for a separate check for my wife and I at the beginning of the meal. </p>
<p>We’re also firm to not go out to dinner with my mother in law unless it was at the frequency that we normally go out anyway, so it’s no impact to our budget. When she wants to “take us out (but you pay the bill)”, then we usually decline unless we were thinking it’d be fun (and we have budget for it) anyway.</p>
<p>This thread makes me really appreciate my friends. </p>
<p>And family members!</p>
<p>Family is different - there are all sorts of underlying dynamics and motivations to keep the peace. </p>
<p>I have a “friend” like this. What I noticed over time (15 years) is that she floats between friends. As she wears out her welcome, she moves to greener pastures. She floats back into my circle periodically, but is less successful each time wedging herself into the middle of the group. </p>
<p>I sometimes think she believes that she is so facinating and exciting to be around (she can be the life of the party, but just as easily can be clueless about how she is grating on people) that we should forgive her when she forgets to pay for things or causes people expense when she drops out of events at the last minute.</p>
<p>Her self absorption may stem from some insecurity.</p>
<p>Jym, if I can afford it, and don’t mind paying, it would not be an issue. Even if the friend never takes us out for dinner as promised, I would let it go. I have some friends that at scatsy enough that this is possible.</p>
<p>However, if my finances are tight–like I am really to the edge for the next two months, if anyone asked DH and/or me out for a restaraunt meal, they have to pick up the tab, and I would tell them outright. I have no qualms saying that. Heck, if you came to my neck of the woods next month and wanted to meet me in the city for dinner and show, I’d have to say “no can do, no available funds, am not adding to the debt due to big expenses anticipated in May.” And that’s what I would say. But I don’t hold someone to a thank you gift. It doesn’t work that way with me. </p>
<p>You have to work it out so you are comfortable and you don’t pay for something you don’t want to pay.</p>
<p>Jym- maybe you can think of your friend as simply lacking at social cues, borderline on the spectrum in a way, and see if you can set up future interactions in different ways to avoid her pattern of payment issues. You’ve outlined how to do event tickets differently, but I am not sure how you could have done anything else on this thank you dinner.</p>
<p>If she is unable to discern the social cues, you might be doing her a service by clarifying the dinner details, she may not have considered that people think differently than she does.</p>
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<p>If we’re down to wordsmithing, when I read your first draft I thought it was just right and not too blunt!</p>
<p>Then a later attempt you draft-wrote “if you are paying for us.” I’d be writing it “when you pay for us” --when, not if, since that was your original deal/contract together. By writing “if” you open it back up as a renegotiation. If she wants to write back that she doesn’t think she’s picking up your tab any more, then you can decide if you’re too busy for this evening entirely. And maybe go invite the other couple out sometime for a 4-way meal.</p>
<p>Ha. For a moment, I thought of using the restaurant bill as the moment to square away the money from if/when she leaves you hanging for her theater ticket. Even if it’s $15 for the ticket, you hand in $15 less and say, “well, it’s a bit less because of last night’s theater ticket.” BUT I’m afraid since she’s handling the collection of the money, all she’ll do is take it out on the food-server with a weak tip. So scratch that idea.</p>
<p>“I can’t in my wildest dreams imagine inviting a couple, or two, to celebrate any kind of family event that I initiate and then expect them to pay. Who behaves this way?”</p>
<p>Who behaves that way? LOTS of people I’ve encountered over the years. So many in fact, that I’ve ceased to be amazed. Most times I can simply post the experience in the “Say it here …” thread and then move on. But sometimes venting isn’t enough … and Jym’s situation is one of those times IMHO.</p>
<p>Thanks again, everyone. In writing this I did realize that venting wasn’t enough, and that I wanted to address it with her and not let if shew at my craw for a week. </p>
<p>I though about saying “when you pay” instead of “if” but it just felt too…direct.</p>
<p>I personally tend to go with trying to clarify things before hand. Then again, I’m the type of person who tends to drop people as friends…or even acquaintances who behaved the way your “friend” did as IMHO…that long pattern of flaky behavior which disrespects your property, your time, and generosity is a sign she’s not a real friend…but a parasitic moocher who shouldn’t be tolerated. My tolerance for this is especially low for those who are financially well-off…but stingy and cheap with their friends/family. </p>
<p>Granted, a part of this is probably cultural as trying to stick others with the bill* is considered one of the most egregious social faux pas anyone who is old enough to be considered an adult could commit on both sides of my extended family.* One older cousin still gets reminded of this by his mother and aunts for an instance of this he committed nearly 3 decades ago towards a college friend. </p>
<p>This includes situations where one eats a large meal and then splits the bill in such a way that others end up footing an unfairly large proportion of the bill. If I end up eating a large meal or know I am hungry enough to do so…I’d rather treat everyone at that particular meal to avoid the unnecessary complications of splitting and to place the responsibility where it belongs in that context…ON ME. If they insist on paying in a split format, I’d insist on a separate check in return so they aren’t stuck paying for my large meal…basic common courtesy in my book. </p>
<p>Among friends…instead of splitting the bill…we’d arrange it so that each of us treats the other in turns. We don’t keep track of the expense/level of restaurant as we’re all about hanging out having a good time. Moreover…it allows those of us who are better off financially to cover for the less well off among us without causing them any loss of face. We’d just tell them to “treat us next time”…and then forget about it.</p>
<ul>
<li>In the Chinese culture I grew up with on both sides of my family…the common tendency tends to be that all the most senior adults would fight for “the honor” of footing the entire bill…and would sometimes angrily snap at anyone younger…especially of the younger generations who’d attempt to make it “their treat”.</li>
</ul>
<p>She is not your friend. I consider a friend someone I would give my right arm to, if she needed it. I don’t think you would give your right arm to her. I have many acquaintances, but only a few really good friends. I think that she is your acquaintance. </p>
<p>I am not a nice person. Well, I am not nice when it comes to some things. Personally, I would not bring our credit card that evening. Problem solved. Oops! I changed bags and left it on the counter. Same goes with your husband. If you are expected to pay, then tell her you will “pop a check in the mail”. </p>
<p>Do any of your other mutual friends have issues with her, or is it just you and your husband? I would certainly ease back on seeing them. While they may be lovely people, life is too short to surround yourself with that kind of ilk.</p>
<p>I agree with getting its straightened out ahead of time but i woould take the approach that you hinted at earlier. Write the email as if you are ASSUMING that they are treating you. That’s what this dinner was planned for in the first place and if she decided to change that intent she should have ASKED you if you would mind postponing your thank you dinner.</p>
<p>I would say something like:</p>
<p>I’m happy that (third couple) can join us! It’s been too long since we’ve seen them. I’m wondering, though, if they will feel awkward being at our thank you dinner?</p>
<p>She sounds like a tough one to me and it is clear that you are fed up with her antics. I don’t buy the clueless theory. She may not know how her actions effect others entirely but she definitely knows that she is doing things that always wash in her favor. She needs boundaries and quick. She may be a nice person but she sounds like a spoiled child who has been allowed to control everyone else for too long.</p>
<p>My sister is very much like this one and it has affected our relationship. For me, it is difficult to have an intimate friendship with someone who is always on the lookout for an advantage in any given situation.</p>
<p>And Engineer4life…WTH…you have got to be kidding me!!!</p>
<p>I am not the only one who sees this pattern, silverlady. She used to constantly brag about her kids at the swim meets, and the neighbors would, sadly, talk behind her back about how difficult they were and how annoying her bragging was. She talks the ears off of anyone who is next to her working out at the gym, even if they have headphones on and are listening to something else, because it helps HER to work out more if she is taling to someone. Get the idea?</p>
<p>She has a good heart and she does a lot of volunteer work, but there is typically something in it for her. I have just become increasingly intolerant of this stuff. I am perfectly able to be direct, but I dont want to cause discomfort amongst our circle of friends (which do overlap).</p>
<p>Someone asked how she knew about my plans with other couples? We have overlapping friends and we also talk, so I guess I need to be less honest when she asks if we are free on a weekend and not tell her who we are going out with, but simply say “no, we are not free”. But when she asks who we are going out with (which she typically does) I dont feel comfortable telling her its none of her business, and if I tell her, she says “wo we’d love to see them too- can we come along?” If I already have tickets or reservations I will say so, but I will not lie. I just cant go there.</p>
<p>As I said- for all her flaws, she is a friend. No one is perfect, and I accept her for who she is. But if I tell her she should have asked me first before changing the plans, I look bad or difficult. And, from what I saw in the email chain (or the part I saw) it looks like she said, or implied to couple #3 that we were going out to celebrate her DHs birthday, which isnt accurate. I didnt know it was his bday and she only told me in the subsequent email that suddenly this is an opportunity to celebrate with him. BTW, haven’t heard back yet from her.</p>
<p>Oh, and its not the cost. Budget isnt an issue. If we split the bill or order sep. checks they’ll want to “share” a bottle or 2 of wine and will drink most of it.</p>
<p>Her husband joined us at the last minute for dinner when we had movie passes. He “misunderstood” the bill and was throwing in $5 for what was about $20 worth of food/drinks. I didnt put up with that. I clarified his oversight. Ahem. They then got us to save a spot for them in line which we did, they then got ahead of us somehow (oh- we were ckecking in alphabetically or something), and didnt save us a seat!</p>
<p>Engineer4life’s in laws remind me of my mom’s parents. My grandma has a “hierarchy of poverty,” as we call it, and divies up the leftovers at any given family party accordingly. Since my mother is still married and my aunt isn’t, even if we spent two months grocery money hosting the party and are flat broke, my grandma packs up all the food (our food at our house) after and gives it to my aunt, or my sister, or anybody but us. Then we eat hot dogs for two months. We stopped going to family thanksgivings because we wanted turkey sandwiches, darn it, and we’re about to stop hosting christmas which will mean my family my not meet up for christmas anymore. We can’t afford it!</p>
<p>When you do hear back, don’t be surprised if she is annoyed with you for pointing out to her that she tried to pull a fast one. This type of personality is exceptionally good at the “Shame on you for noticing that i acted like an a$$!” strategy.</p>
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<p>Sounds like that might not be such a great loss!</p>
<p>Being direct isn’t the same as being rude. It’s really okay for you to be direct and ask about these dinner plans while reminding your friend that this was originally meant to be a thank you to you and your dh. </p>
<p>There’s an etiquette site that I read off and on in which the posters (and mods) discuss polishing up one’s titanium spine in order to remain strong in the face of clueless or rude people who seek to take advantage. I find it helpful to read when the voice of my very southern grandmother (of blessed memory) berates me about standing up for myself instead of being a doormat (or a “lady” as she would see it.)</p>
<p>Good luck!</p>
<p>I’m mentally comparing this to the distant son thread…</p>
<p>Any who, if we are invited to a dinner for a birthday party, the host generally pays and we will chip in for a nice bottle of champagne or wine. Its all depends on the who. If it’s a bunch of girls, we generally each our own, but we always ask and be sure the place is a place we can all afford, as it’s the company not the food. Same for my husbands gang, however, everyone in a while some of his friends will try and impress and order very expense bottles of wine so he has been surprised tomsee a 75dollar tab for a meal he expected to pay 35 for, includng reasonable wine. Now he says, I will chip in for food, but I’ll get my own glasses of wine thank you very much. Seriously, these guys sometimes look at the price and four bottles of 60 per bottle adds up. And often it’s three red and one white, so dh gets like two glasses. </p>
<p>I had a I forget to go the the ATM friend so it was always a 20 here 20 there. And forget to payback. But if I borrowed five bucks, she was real quick to ask for it back soon as we got together. And it wasn’t expensive places, it was like, getting a quick lunch after a museum.</p>
<p>Ah well, needless to say, this friend, well we fell out over another issue. </p>
<p>Good luck with the show!!! And if she expects you to pay for dinner, then you should get choice of locsiton, time, menu, etc…</p>
<p>I want that website, Silpat!!!</p>
<p>I agree that being assertive isn’t the same as being rude but one of the favorite tactics of these kinds of people is to make you feel AS IF you are being rude when you are really just being direct. It helps protect them from the consequences of their actions. And it often works!</p>
<p>ahhh seahorses you just gave me a good idea. I know she only drinks red wine, so I can say I am int he mood for white and order my own. Hope DH would do the same. That said, this asumes we get separate checks.</p>
<p>I am surprised I havent heard back from her yet. Maybe she wants to talk to the other friend or her DH. </p>
<p>She did replace an almost empty bottle of bourbon with a new one when she drank ours up, (and she bought the same brand, not some cheap stuff) and she left us a cheap bottle of wine that they’d planned to drink themselves but didnt. So I guess perhaps in their mind they think they’ve already “thanked” us. Though she is the one who said they wanted to take us out to thank us. Convenient amnesia?</p>