To new immigrants - how to get your kid into HYPS

Parents Forum
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<p>Well here goes. I may offend a lot of people and I apologize in advance. But I think this is valuable information for people who are looking for it.</p>

<p>How do you get your kid into HYPS? You have to examine what America values - across political categories. Here is what America values, in priority order, IMO. Some of these items, obviously, overlap, and I move from general to the particular in those cases.</p>

<li>Individual drive and unique perspectives.</li>
<li>Courage and persistence, against all odds.</li>
<li>Being better than other people at something.</li>
<li>Charisma.</li>
<li>Sports.</li>
<li>Entertainment.</li>
<li>Money.</li>
<li>Doing good.</li>
</ol>

<p>Now why? Well, you have to remember, that although we have now developed a more mature privileged class, we started as a bunch of people who had to have enormous drive, the vision to believe what very few other people believe, enormous courage, and excellent skills of one sort or another. As I have said on previous threads, my family on both sides has been in America since the 1600’s. But were they aristocracy in Scotland, Ireland and England, where they came from? H*** no. They were actually sheepfarmers, cheesemakers, and ministers. But they knew they couldn’t get ahead given that they owned no land, so they took huge risks and set out across the Atlantic. </p>

<p>Subsequent waves of immigrants have done the same thing. The other Europeans - Irish, Italian, Eastern Europe. The Asians, the Hispanics. And each time a new wave comes in, those of us who are here try to keep the others out so we can have all the resources to ourselves. Sorry. Human nature, but disgraceful all the same. Did you know that the Irish were once known as the n****** of Europe? And I am not going to address slavery here, as Drosselmeier has done so intelligently and eloquently on other threads. He is right. No other group had their ability to form a sub-society completely destroyed over such a prolonged period. (You go, D.) I am just explaining to you how America works in my opinion.</p>

<p>Each succesful immigrant wave finds a way to get a foothold. Jews loaned money, Koreans started greengroceries, Irish became policemen and lawyers and judges and finally politicians. They stick together, help eachother out, and amass capital. Then their offspring can do what they want with it:). But all these immigrant waves have shown the prototypical American behavior, drive, pig-headedness, creativity, etc. and in their individuality, become part of the whole.</p>

<p>This is important. College admissions offices value the same things that America values.</p>

<li>Individual drive and unique perspectives.</li>
<li>Courage and persistence, against all odds.</li>
<li>Being better than other people at something.</li>
<li>Charisma.</li>
<li>Sports.</li>
<li>Entertainment.</li>
<li>Money.</li>
<li>Doing good.</li>
</ol>

<p>We, and they, do not value obedience, unless it is the obedience of the warrior, because it shows his individuality. We certain do not value dutiful. We do not value following the crowd, no matter who your crowd is.</p>

<p>So it’s not about making your Asian kid choose non-Asian activities. It’s not about making your Latino kid choose non-Asian activities. The admissions people want to see some evidence that your kid is an American. They want to see signs that he or she is an individual, one with drive and courage and their own, even contrarian ideas. They want to see excellence, but excellence driven by an interior spirit. </p>

<p>We all respect Marite enormously here. Her kid is brilliant and goes to Harvard. But he got there on the power of his own inner spirit. I remember a story she told about how the only way to get him to eat was to do math problems with him. That is not obedience. It is not dutiful. It is not following the crowd.</p>

<p>So if your Asian kid, OF HIS OWN ACCORD, is obsessively and even militarily involved with things Asian, phenomenal. They just want to see, assuming of course the standard checkboxes that indicate intelligence and capacity to handle the workload have been checked (SATs and grades), that your kid will go out into America and make an impact. To do that, you have to function in the American system, the American value system.</p>

<p>Whether it’s sports or entertainment or law or science or whatever, doesn’t matter. And sure, I’m not saying the stuff like racial diversity and donations and exceptional athletes don’t matter, they do. But if your kid is not going to be on those pools no matter what you do, then remember, this is America, whether we have it right or wrong, IMO this is what we value.</p>

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<p>High weight gain.</p>

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<p>Mini - Is your tongue in your cheek again? If you mean high weight gain by all is valued here, no it isn’t. It is a by-product of many other factors, not a value. If you mean college admissions value high weight gain, that is true for some wrestlers, some football players, and I don’t know, maybe shot putters? But in any case, this topic is one that has aroused all kinds of discussion and mostly, IMO, discussion where people are down in the weeds and not looking at the big picture. I am 100% sincere in my desire to be useful here - after all, I have long since figured out that when I go to China, which I do with regularity, and work with our people there, I can fume and fuss over the cultural and systemic differences all I want but to be successful there I have to see that what is, is.</p>

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<p>Alu:</p>

<p>Just to show that there are variations on “the grass is greener over there,” I admire Mini’s Ds tremendously. They are definitely sui generis.</p>

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<p>No tongue in cheek. I think you have WAY underestimated the value of money and status, and of athletics, in the American way of looking at things, and doing things, and I wouldn’t even put them on the same list, many of which (while true) are heavily fueled by mythology.</p>

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<p>No I haven’t. They are on my list of what America values. But sports is just an instantiation of the larger value - drive, persistence, being better at something than everyone else (that pretty much defines athletic competition). Money in America is valued as much for the fact that it is evidence that you are better than other people than for any other reason. And, if you read my post carefully, I am saying that IF YOUR KID CAN’T BE RICH OR AN ATHLETE OR BRING RACIAL DIVERSITY then you need to look at these other factors.</p>

<p>Because your stress on athletes, money, status, while correct, isn’t helpful to the new immigrants trying to figure their way into the system.</p>

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<p>It is EXTREMELY helpful, in my view, because without understanding them, new immigrants are likely to feel that they are arbitrarily treated unfairly. Now that I think they ARE treated unfairly goes without saying, but it isn’t arbitrary, given core American values.</p>

<p>Sports is not about the larger value. Sports (together with money and status) IS the larger value. “Drive, persistence, being better at something than everyone else” is great, but sports success is valued more highly than any of the above.</p>

<p>No, I did not read your first post carefully enough, for which I apologize.</p>

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<p>“Money in America is valued as much for the fact that it is evidence that you are better than other people than for any other reason”</p>

<p>I’m not an immigrant, but I didn’t know this. Thanks.</p>

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<p>It’s the status piece, which wasn’t on the original list.</p>

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<p>Yeah, but mini you’ve made your point over and over again. Just taking a crack here at putting forward some different issues. And by the way, doing it from the heart, as my closest colleagues and the people I have spent the vast majority of my time with over the past five years, are all children ofChinese ethnicity recent immigrants or immigrants themselves. I have had heartfelt discussions comparing my experience as a child of privilege and my experience with my daughter as a legacy to their experiences with their children. I acknowledge all the structural issues that lead to the feeling of arbitrary and unfair.</p>

<p>But this is a deeper issue than just college admissions. Asians are the most financially successful ethnic subgroup in America who, and this is the point, who have been the least visibly involved in the American power structure. I now see signs of change, Jian Li’s legal action among them, and I welcome those signs of change. But there is knowledge of the big picture that needs to be voiced. Given my background it feels like my responsibility to voice what I know, just as you voice what you know.</p>

<p>And, I didn’t think of status as a value, more as a condition awarded to those who manifest the values…</p>

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<p>Mini, shouldn’t status be number 1?</p>

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<p>dstark - perhaps if you no longer believe in the American dream and the myths behind it, perhaps then yes. But I have to tell you, left of center person though I may be, every time I come home from my travels I still feel that this is the best shot at a country I can call home.</p>

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<p>The former President of Oberlin has written a fine book (a new Veblen, though not quite as sharp or as global in its critique), on the role of status in American society, which would be great for new immigrants to read, though I doubt it would penetrate such a market:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Somebodies-Nobodies-Overcoming-Abuse-Rank/dp/0865714878/sr=8-2/qid=1165345537/ref=sr_1_2/102-6094273-8558501?ie=UTF8&s=books[/url]”>http://www.amazon.com/Somebodies-Nobodies-Overcoming-Abuse-Rank/dp/0865714878/sr=8-2/qid=1165345537/ref=sr_1_2/102-6094273-8558501?ie=UTF8&s=books&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>OK, but please, it’s different anywhere else in the world that rank has its privileges? I would say it’s worse everywhere else that I have been.</p>

<p>And I still was hoping, I confess, for some kind of a dialogue on my original post. Do any of the recent immigrant parents here on this forum have any opinions about what I said? Does it make any sense?</p>

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<p>“OK, but please, it’s different anywhere else in the world that rank has its privileges? I would say it’s worse everywhere else that I have been.”</p>

<p>I would (mostly) agree. But your point is? If status/rank is still the number one determinant (probably that should go to another forum), and is something immigrants are already familiar with from their own country, why wouldn’t it be extremely helpful for them to know it?</p>

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<p>I think that you left off something that Americans – particularly admissions officers – value highly: a demonstrated, passionate commitment to community service. This is different than doing CS just to pad one’s resume. This is taking the time, effort, leadership and creativity to help other people or a cause because one genuinely cares about service and whatever issue is involved.</p>

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<p>Northstarmom, that’s what I meant when I listed doing good. However, I am glad that you stressed it. I think that in doing good, i.e. community service, however, the admissions officers like to see individual spirit. For example, sure if your parents are wealthy you sure can go do good in Costa Rica. And have a nice time amongst palm trees with other kids like you. But if your parents are wealthy and you make the difficult and scary trip over the freeway every Tuesday and Thursday for years to help kids - who are not always polite or grateful - to stay in high school, that will be seen as better evidence of the American spirit.</p>

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<p>Alum, I don’t believe you meant ot say that those with more money are ‘better’–I believe you meant to say that those with higher salaries are ‘better’ at their jobs and are, perhaps, ‘better’ at selecting high paying jobs. </p>

<p>However, there are so many amazing Americans who do not select their job based on potential salary. I’d be heartbroken if you discounted the minis, marites, jamimoms of the world. There are even a few CC parents who do not send their children to universities to learn a ‘career’.</p>

<p>Mini is also correct that MONEY is a top requirement for those wishing to give their kids a $200K experience. Just ask curmudgeon.</p>

<p>The thing is, I think most brilliant Asian American students DO have the qualities you listed above. In spades. That’s why they do so well in college admissions. That’s why my semi-bright kid looks like a slacker by comparison. I’d hate to see Asian American families change their values too radically. I’d rather see some of the Asian values incorporated into America and some of the American values incorporated into Asia. That’s the direction our children’s children are heading anyway–if we can keep from blowing each other to bits that is.</p>

<p>The only problem is a high class problem–there are too many brilliant Asian American applicants for too few places.</p>

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<p>I didn’t say money makes someone better. I said that Americans tend to perceive money as a signifier of being better at something.</p>

<p>Never mind. It was probably too abstract of a concept in any case.</p>

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<p>Alumother, I didn’t know you traveled to China. What do you think of Chinese universities making golf a required course? (Not an elective, a requirement!) This is clearly their perception of American culture, what is important and what is required for success in dealing with Americans.</p>