To new immigrants - how to get your kid into HYPS

Parents Forum
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<p>Mini - I believe that if you draw the Venn diagrams of money and high achievement, they will overlap, but not altogether, as the college professors, social workers, etc. can testify to. I also believe that there is not much status that these two circles don’t cover. For example, my great great whatever was the guy they locked in the room to write the Constitution. Do I get any status in America whatsoever as a result? Any privilege? Zero. It’s a cocktail party curiousity that I would love to bring up but am too embarassed IRL to be so status conscious and gets me nothing. Not even a free bus ticket. But my sheep farming ancestors who decided to hang with the right crowd and eventually used their capital to finance railroads? Yeah, that I get something from. So I don’t think status is anything more than the overlapping circles of $$$ and high achievement. Even if that achievement is <em>only</em> thwacking large men onto their bottoms or singing melodically and with rhythm while you dance around wearing few clothes.</p>

<p>NJ res. I have not heard any one of our people even say the world golf in China:). Had no idea of such a thing. The only place I see golf is in the expat enclaves in Shanghai, named things like Thompson Estates etc…but maybe they are right, huh?</p>

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<p>To the immigrants, from the wife of one (and I’m just as intense as any). Be prepared to NOT have your brilliant, well rounded, exceptional child get into the most elite schools- there are just too many students for too few spaces. Do have your child get the best of the American HS experience, including all those nonacademics, because they will benefit your child. Sports these days include so many choices and are good physical activity, if your child wants to run, play ball, swim or whatever, encourage them- they can relieve a lot of academic stress. Remember to give them a good childhood as well as a good college preparation, they will be better prepared for adulthood. We all want our children to have more than we did and part of this is being able to have a wonderful childhood and still have the high-powered college life, even at the “next best” universities. </p>

<p>To the American posters- remember most immigrants posting here will be very serious and may take everything literally; no matter how long they have been here or how well integrated into American society they are there can be misunderstandings, so be prepared for someone to misinterpret you. The catch phrase will draw immigrants to this thread.</p>

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<p>Alumother, I think I understand something of what you are describing. I see college admissions as something like “cargo science” as described by Richard Feynman. He tells the story of some south sea islanders who prospered during WWII, when the Allies had bases on their island. In hopes of their return, the islanders built a runway, complete with lights (made out of some natural material, but non-functioning) a control tower made out of boxes and so forth. They created the image of what an airport/base would look like, but nothing functioned. In the same way, some people try to decipher the correct presentation/activities/image that their student should have in order to be accepted into the most elite segment of US society – an Ivy league school. </p>

<p>I see this from two perspectives. As a mom, people (especially some recent immigrants) ask me to very specifically describe how my son was accepted at his set of schools. They want to know his GPA, his board scores, activities and did he play a sport? I feel that they are looking for the external trappings that will lead directly to an acceptance letter. But the reality, as most of us know, is that the acceptance letter is often the culmination of a lifetime of choices – intellectual interests pursued, perhaps music or a sport – that define who the student is. I honestly believe that most kids are successful as a result of who they are, not what they do.</p>

<p>I also appreciate your thread from the perspective of an immigrant family. Unlike you, my family arrived in the late 1950’s, from a very different background. Yet all of my siblings have risen in terms of socioeconomic status. Some of that I attribute to Hollywood – the movies of the 50’s and 60’s presented a social world that was new to me. Novels were a big help and I think that learning to navigate socially is as important as grades or test scores. Maybe that explains the golf in China?</p>

<p>Sports presents a funny issue to me. I can’t begin to tell you how many people I knew in the midwest who were convinced that sports (especially hockey or basketball) was the ticket to success, particularly to an Ivy. I’m sure it helps, but I see it as an indicator, not as a goal unto itself. But maybe I just don’t understand sports very well.</p>

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<p>Speaking as a member of a decidedly unsporty family, I know the emphasis of sports in America. I have never really understood it, mainly because I find sitting for hours on a cold stadium seat (or hot one, depending on the season and sport) to be enormously boring. My son is not a sporty child, but is blessed with great musical ability, which is a good thing, since I would much rather sit at a thousand performances than games. We never did the requisite town soccer or little league, which raised more than a few eyebrows, when he was a young boy. It was like really bucking the system.</p>

<p>The D, on the other hand, shows great athletic proclivity, and I have had to force myself to sit like a good sports mother, since it isn’t MY natural proclivity. Mainly, I loathe those screeching parents from the sidelines, and never wanted to be a part of that, but have found I can be discreetly there in my chair, blending into the field.</p>

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<p>Just a thought:</p>

<p>Instead of telling them how to get their kids into HYPS, how about educating them about the many other great institutions of higher learning that the U.S. has to offer?</p>

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<p>“I think that you left off something that Americans – particularly admissions officers – value highly: a demonstrated, passionate commitment to community service.”</p>

<p>Yes, but it also depends on the Where of that. Some immigrant families, such as East Asians, have a strong tradition of giving back to their <em>own</em> communities (in this country), & they did so long before admissions officers found CS attractive. What can be more persuasive is work outside one’s own ethnicity. I’ve seen this to be less apparent, <em>as a whole</em>, among East Asian families than among certain other groups, but I do know there are exceptions (& I’ve met some), so no need for flames. Admissions officers particularly value global initiative, “life-long” commitment to one’s own (such as some Native Americans & some middle Easterners have demonstrated) – and above all else, making a choice to forfeit individual glory on behalf of a cause larger than a private SAT score, a music award, an athletic triumph, one more “challenging course,” etc. Generosity counts for just a ton. So does stepping in to provide leadership in situations where none existed, esp. in matters of need/compassion. HYP, Columbia, Dartmouth love to see this.</p>

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<p>Here you go: (relevant, I hope, to the topic)</p>

<p>Forced Golf in China Pits Communists Against New Rich</p>

<p><a href=“Bloomberg Politics - Bloomberg”>Bloomberg Politics - Bloomberg;

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<p>“Instead of telling them how to get their kids into HYPS, how about educating them about the many other great institutions of higher learning that the U.S. has to offer?”</p>

<p>You might tell them that H. ranks 26th (among 31 leading institutions) in student assessment of academic quality and quality of campus life.</p>

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<p>NJres, LOL. I didn’t know that university. But Peking University is one of the tops in the country, along with Tsinghua, Shanghai Jiao Tong, etc. If you want to have real status, Peking U - Bay Dah (spelled phonetically, I don’t know the pinyin…). Then you can sound like a true insider;).</p>

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<p>Jews came here as moneylenders-- when? In the 14th century? Tell that to the wave of Jewish immigrants from the Soviet Union in the 1980’s-- most of whom were doctors and physicists and concert pianists back home.</p>

<p>This is an isidious, racist thread put forth under the guise of community service. Thanks but no thanks.</p>

<p>Sort of like telling black kids in a housing project on the South Side of Chicago that the fastest way for them to get to Harvard is to move to Winnetka or Lake Forest. MMM… yeah, good idea.</p>

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<p>Alumother, I think college admission is perceived by most immigrant families as one process of our society that they are not handicapped by their background. That is why there is such a huge emphasis placed on it by so many immigrants. Immigrants are well aware of the value placed by our society in sports. However, it is not an area that can be readily developed for their children. You do need to have “soccer moms”, the place to practice, the parents to talk about Ohio State during dinner etc to foster your children that way. Note that very few of the brass section of orchestra are asians (as opposed to the string). You do need space to practice brass instruments, which may not be readily available to immigrant families.</p>

<p>Immigrant parents place a high value on HYP over other institutions not because of a hunger for prestige but becuase they are worried that their children may carry a vestige of their immigrant status and be exlcuded from realizing their full potential. Hence, they have the perception that a harvard grad will have less trouble than a state u grad etc.</p>

<p>It is hard for them to change their ways, as much as you and I will have a hard time in the way that we raise our children.</p>

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<p>I think the important message to get across is that American culture places a very high value on innovation and entrepeneurship, and actually places relatively little value on education and on the prestige or status associated with educational attainment. America also likes success stories involving underdogs. </p>

<p>In other words, Americans are inherently delighted with the fact that Bill Gates is a college dropuout – Gates’ rejection of Harvard and the narrative of the ascendence of Microsoft over IBM are the perfect “American dream” story – little guy strikes out on his own and triumphs over big institution + big company. </p>

<p>Of course the reality of American life is that big companies usually win over small entrepeneurs… but culturally, we still root for the underdog. </p>

<p>The biggest problem with the obsessive competition for entry into HYP is that the immigrants who follow that path are desperately seeking a prize that has little lasting value in American culture. Americans are just as likely to treat the Harvard degree with disdain because it is seen as snooty and snobbish.</p>

<p>Americans also have a root-for-the-team and somewhat provincial mentality that means that in employment, connections and networking trump status. In other words, it is better to be a graduate of your prospective employers lower-ranked alma mater than to be a graduate of a prestige schools.</p>

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<p>For those immigrant families who are struggling to make it financially here, it is not helpful to tell them how important money is in getting your kid into a top college. I think they kind of get the gist that money is important here, as this is a capitalist society. Since they are not likely to get the type of money to “buy” ivy league admissions unless they hit one heck of a lottery number or unless they came here rich, it is more useful to give advice on what types of things that fit into their world that are valued by college admissions. Many do not understand that unlike in many Asian countries, it is not all about grades and test scores, though that is important too, and that other activities that are also helpful to the family as a whole like working in the family business or contributing to a meager family income is viewed very positively by top college adcoms. I have seen immigrant families where the parents are working themselves to the bone while their crown prince (or princess) is allowed a total pass on house or outside work so that a perfect SAT might be achieved. Also community service to those in similar predicaments and keeping in touch with the former country’s doings are also very worthy activities. These do not just enrich the college resume, but the person and family as well.</p>

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<p>Calmom got it. And I didn’t mean moneylenders like Shylock. I meant as in Goldman Sachs as I was trying to draw a parallel around how amassing capital is important. Please, think the best of someone first…</p>

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<p>My perception is that most parents – whether or not they are immigrants – are trying to figure out the formula. In some countries, it is formulaic. It is only in the US, I believe, that there are so many subjective elements of the application. I think Alumother is just trying to help newer Americans decipher the system.</p>

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<p>Calmom, I don’t know if an ivy education has little lasting value. I agree that it should not be the ultimate pie in the sky that defines ones life, but it is certainly a nice result. I think opening their eyes to other opportunities is important, but is nigh impossible to take that glitter off of the top name schools that are often the only names that mattered back in the old country.</p>

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<p>alumother </p>

<p>Your list is very good. </p>

<p>Many asian immigrants ignore some facts - sports are given its own section in American newspaper. Same thing Ivy recurits heavily and tip applicants among people who are in their ballpark statswise (GPA and SATs wise say 1400 and 3.6 GPA and the srudents are top recruitable football, hockey, fencing, rowing etc. etc. - they are in over 1550+ and 3.9 GPAs from typical high schools). </p>

<p>If student have taken many passion beyond APs in scince and math or even humanities - student

have a better chance to be admitted over 1550+ and 3.9 GPAs from typical high schools). </p>

<p>Same thing tipping factors are for facbrats, leagcies, etc.</p>

<p>and also 1450+ and 3.8 GPA URM kid has higher chance over an asian of 1550+ and 3.9 GPA typical high shool kid.</p>

<p>As I have said previously asian should change the name of their kid to John Quin and let them apply with varied ECs in poiltics, jazza music, debates, making films, marketing and they have same advantge over other kids.</p>

<p>In another 2-3 generation all asian kid would be americanized and would have ECs with many varieties which would enhance their chance if they mainatain their academic edge. But in reality like any immigrants history they would loose out their identy as exclusive asians as they have no touch with their parents’ culture. America is and should be their home country. </p>

<p>If parental family would fail to give time to kids then distractions from TV, commericailizaton, opposite sex, drug, indifference to education will take place. Parents who would spend the time witth thier next generations would continue to benefit from american opportunities.</p>

<p>and our next generations would still be debating :slight_smile: </p>

<p>No one knows whether a studdnet is in next round of admission or out as institutional priorities would change.</p>

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<p>For immigrant families who are living a hardship, needing full financial aid, and little money for ECs, they are often pursuing the route of the greatest chance for college money and elite college acceptance by going after that perfect SAT score and AP classes and perfect grades. It is something they can understand, and the lack of ECs from a newly arrived family with little money is understandable. I think a good many of these families do get their kids into top school this way, and the word has spread. The problem I see is that it is often with tremendous stress on the kids and family both monetarily and in quality of life. To use some of that study time, and alleviate the onus on the PERFECT scores, time spent helping others in the same immigrant or community situation or working to add to family income might be just as successful of a route. I doubt that someone who is in the disadvantaged category, particularly with a low income family, first generation in the US, parents maybe without a college degree, is going to be penalaized much on the test scores and grades as long as they are within parameters, and the time would be better spent. The obsession with perfect grades and scores has become a joke and stereotype. It has also hurt many of those in the situation. Yes, it has garnered some of these kids entry to HPY too, but the journey to a place is as important as the destination.</p>

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<p>Is it safe to say that?</p>

<p>“Elite collegestudent does not necessary mean the top academic student - but a kid who played best game to be differnt and having marketing skills which fullfills institutional needs of elite colleges”</p>

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<p>Yes, but top colleges openly seek “disadvantaged” kids who qualify and cut them a break on all sorts of stuff. The sad truth is that there is a shortage of disadvantaged kids who can survive the rigor of the top schools. The definition hinges on economic disadvantage which can be easily verified, especially with a financial aid app, and a quick check with the highschool counselor. Also if there is a hardship story involved, most counselors encourage the kids to include it in their essay and make note of it the recs, the trials and travails that this student and family has undergone, coming to this country. THough it is an old story, it is the experience undergone and the hardship part of the history that will trump any hackneyed subject matter. In a case like this, ec excellence is not expected. But nor is a perfect academic record.</p>