To new immigrants - how to get your kid into HYPS

Parents Forum
41

<p>cpt… :</p>

<p>mY kid is beneficairy of this policy but do you have a proof of this. Somehow I still think that a kid who needs financial aid need to bring something extra to table (offer to school and go beyond more then necessary) so that school can use it in place of a paying customer. Does any parent can provide link. One link is JKC foundation which I know. But how about a study or something else. </p>

<p>Could some parents comments on this issue that is mentioned by cpt…</p>

<p>Thanks</p>

42

<p>stockmarket:</p>

<p>My S knows some kids who are on full rides. They don’t seem to be more talented than other students, either academically or in terms of extra-curricular activities. Colleges recognize that low SES students probably spend most of their free time in high school working rather than participating in sports, arts, or community service.</p>

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<p>marite :</p>

<p>My kids experience is different than yours as many kids on financaila aid actually amazes her in their brilliance. Kids who are JKC scholars have very strong resumes. They have accomplishments in many fields despite economic hardships. Yet they have worked hard as they all are human being. This is irresepctive of their race. Most of them are intellegent kids. </p>

<p>cpt… :</p>

<p>It is shame that many afro americans can perform even better than asians kids, provided at least one parental family is intact. This is the biggest problem and very sad one. </p>

<p>I beleive that as human being we are born with equal intellgence whatever race may be, just circumstances and individual prefernce changes us.</p>

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<p>Stockmarket:
JKC scholars are by definition brilliant. But being a JKC scholar is not necessary for a low SES student to gain admissions to HYP. The applicant just has to be as good as others not in need of a full ride. S/he does not have to be superman or superwoman. What I am trying to say is that colleges do not demand more of low SES students than they demand of others; in fact, they are probably cut some slack academically, since there is a good likelihood that they attend subpar schools with few or no APs and not a great array of school-based ECs. This, of course, does not mean that low SES students cannot be brilliant, as the JKC scholars testify.</p>

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<p>If you look at nearly any statement that a college president, administrator, or admissions officer make about what they want to achieve in admitting students to a top flight school, say HPY, they will say that it is a priority to target and recruit more kids who have disadvantaged backgrounds, the underpriviliged. This is an affirmative action supported by nearly everyone, even those who can’t stand affirmative aciton of any group. One of the hot threads on this site is the one about the young man who is suing Princeton for discrimination of Asians (namely himself). Take a look at the original post and the link that tells you what the Princeton administrator (maybe the president, I don’t really remember). I’ll bet you (and I only think I remember this) that he says something about upping recruitment, etc for the disadvantaged, That is a stated priority of any of these schools. Now when you move down the selectivity ladder or enter the realm of state schools, they are not always generous with those students who are financially in need, and those stats had better be very, very high, as merit within aid starts to kick in, and there are schools that are not need blind. When you need a full aid package, even if your stats are up there, those admissions offices have to use some budgetary admissions criteria that limits the number of full rides they may want to give. But the very top schools that guarantee 100% of need participate in many outreach programs to find qualified disadvantaged kids, and they want them.</p>

46

<p>marite and cpt:</p>

<p>I see whta you are saying. It makes sense. cpt what you said actually I wanted to say that way. You took words out of my mouth. thanks for claryfying it.</p>

<p>Marite: you must be a good mom/dad for your kid and a very well infromed adult. America needs more adult and parents like you.</p>

47

<p>cpt:</p>

<p>You are right. I was thinking of HYP and similar schools that have generous need-blind aid.</p>

48

<p>Now the question of how much leeway is a fuzzy area. The greater the hardships, the greater the leeway, but I have no feel for this in how it really works. I do know that a 4.0, and 800/2400 SATs are not needed. Though economic hardship is the easiest to measure and prove, the true hardships are those kids who have abusive and destructive families with, say, family members in jail, with severe drug problems, abuse issues. They may live in dangerous neighborhoods, go to lousy schools, get no encouragement, in fact get discouragement from family when it comes to academic achievement. Kids who survive those sort of hardships deserve a break in elite college admission and can bring alot to the college and to society as a whole by beating that environment. Not too many Asian kids in that situation. More typical is the parent breaking his neck to provide the best academic chances for his kids. But those too are hardships compared to the majority of candidates who come from advantaged backgrounds, great schools and ECs that are heavily financed and encouraged by the parents. HPY and company do assess the candidate in light of his environment.</p>

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<p>re post #26- giving outside one’s “own” community would disqualify any work done through a church as no matter how charitable, there is the sense of community in doing the service and personal benefit; even if the work is for “the poor in place x”. Do not discount community service just because you are not part of that community. Why is it better to trade ethnic groups, you go to the Hindu Center and the East Asian goes to the Christian Center to do something for someone, for example? I detect an “us” and “them” bias; what you are unfamiliar with is not less worthwhile.</p>

<p>BTW, I was a woodwind player in band and discovered the nuances of orchestra through my son, string instruments are harder to master, especially if you have my poor ear for pitch. Americans are exposed to bands -at sports events and in parades- more often than they see strings so many kids consider the band, whereas immigrants don’t share that cultural bias, like everyone, they steer their kids towards the familiar.</p>

<p>As a physician I would definitely encourage immigrants to let their children be exposed to sports as a participant, for the health benefits. I wish girls had been encouraged to be active in my pre-title IX days. I coached little kid soccer for three years, my team never scored a goal (no score was ever kept officially so they never lost a game either) but they sure enjoyed running around and the treats!</p>

<p>PS- What is a JKC Scholar?</p>

50

<p>I will be PROVOCATIVE.</p>

<p>CHANGE YOUR CHILD’S NAME</p>

<p>IMHO there is anti Asian sentiment at the top private schools.</p>

<p>My closest friend of 25 years, a graduate of MIT, had a name
like Henry Cabot. After knowing him for a while he told me his
original name , which revealed his ethnicity and was difficult
to pronounce.</p>

<p>Everyone at home still referred to him by his original name. I
asked him how he chose the new name. He admitted quite readily that
he researched a name that was very non ethnic American. </p>

<p>Before meeting him, I had qualms about name changes. Now it is apparent
that he made a good choice for himself. </p>

<p>Since an interview is not required at the undergraduate level, it would be an interesting experiment. I believe that more Asians would be accepted if
their race was not known.</p>

51

<p>I think community service where ever you do it is valuable. It’s just that if you are new to the area, the country, the culture, it is a bit easier to do things in the familiar area, and the family can be more comfortable with what is happening. It also kind of puts a nice connecting theme to the appication which makes it a neater package, but I won’t even debate the value of that, as in this case, it would not make any difference. </p>

<p>The reason I suggested this is because many immigrants who are unfamiliar with the way things work here,find it easier to support causes that have familiarity and benefit those they know, their community. Many come from cultures where community service is not valued much and not at all for elite school admissions. It’s test scores, test scores, test scores. That, they can understand. And grades are easy to understand. It is also a successful route to take. Believe me, a disadvantaged immigrant kid with high test scores and grade will not be taken to task for lack of ECs and other interests. The challenges, alone, will be enough of a hook. Forget the typical Asian profile, if the kid is Asian, as the challenge category will trump any other stack that the app would fit. It’s just that the quality of life and stress in beating on the kid aand working self to the bone so that the kid can sit back and study, get tutored, take lessons, is not good, and is not necessary. There is enough leeway that such top grades is not so necessary to go into a frenzy for anything less than perfection. This is a miserable thing that occurs too often. For the kid to work and make money, and alleviate the family finances is not only ok, but viewed upon very, very favorably by admissions officers at the top schools. To do community service and help others in light of one’s challenges is commendable and is pure gold on an app. And those activities can alleviate some of the stress caused by trying to achieve perfection and falling short, because most of these kids do fall short. For all the perfect SATs and grades I see on the this board, the reality is that it is a rare bird that achieves this. And for disadvantaged candidates, it is not necessary. For those who do not fall into disadvantaged categories since it is usually the economic situation that defines the disadvantage–if the immigrant famly is living in an upscale are and makes too much to qualify for financial aid, it’s going to be a tough sell to go the disadvantaged route. Then you danged well better have some comm service, work or something to tie you to some disadvantaged groups, because even perfect academic scores are not going to guarantee you admissions into the top schools, and lack of anything else may well get you shut out from such colleges.</p>

<p>I have read a number of times articles about immigrant family who makes good, working themselves to the bone for the benefit of their children with the goal of getting them into a top school, and the parents are outraged that their kids are viewed as the pampered princes that they are. Just because the parent went through the gauntlet so that the kids could just do his schoolwork is not going sit well with the admissions committees. They are not admitting the parent, but the kid who too often is a spoiled brat, hard working at academics brat, but he is not the one who scrubbed toilets with the toothbrush, worked three jobs, and washed his clothes in the sink. Too often he is the beneficiary of tutors, lots of time to study, parents hovering over him nagging him to study, music lessons, any culteral or high faluting even is subsidized for him, because the PARENT is so motivated that the kid moves up in society. And if the parent is so successful that he makes enough money to move into that great school district or send the kid to that expensive private school, buy a Steinway on which he can practice and pay a top piano teacher, have SAT prep up the whazoo, that kid is no longer in the disadvantaged category, and he had better have something else to show the adcoms other than those accomplishment bought for him by his folks.</p>

52

<p>I don’t think changing the name would make a difference, Sci Doc. You are implying that there is an Asian detector present in the admissions office, and the Asian apps are put in a stack aside from others. I don’t believe this occurs. I guess you would eliminate any residual predjudice that individual adcoms may have about Asians, but my feeling has been that most of them like Asian candidates and there are checks and balances in the admissions process to make sure that such predjudices of individuals are not taken into practice. The apps are read twice, for one thing, and anyone with high stats gets another review usually from the director himself. If any pattern of discrimination is noted from any particular adcom, it is addressed. It is important to the integrity of the college that this is done, and they do take this very seriously. It has been my observation that Scott Smith or John Cabot fares the same fate as Sam Wong, or Ho Jae Yung if the app reads the same way. I am willing to bet that your friend was outstanding and would have done well even with his ethnic name in academia. When it come to the “real” world of jobs, sales and attracting customers, I think that a difficult, unpronouncable name does have a disadvantage. If they can’t remember your name, it is difficult to look you up, and you may lose business that way. But I don’t think it is an issue in elite school admissions.</p>

53

<p>Alumother, I liked your post a lot. Maybe you guys have discussed this before, but in discussing America’s values we could focus on Benjamin Franklin whose drive and energy got him everywhere (and I mean EVERYWHERE) in the 18th century. He was also a great believer in the middle class and artisans and craftsman - the kind you say your ancestors were.</p>

<p>p.s - He was also admitted to Harvard but could not convince his father that he should go there to become a minister. His father thought he was too irreverent. His subsequent parodies and articles he wrote with pseudonyms proved that. :)</p>

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<p>I find it sad and misguided even to consider a name-change. I see a name change for any person of any ethnic group if there’s a concern about spelling or pronunciation (or you are tired of having your name mispronounced, & wish to spell it phonetically!). As to college admissions, though, it is not about names or ethnicity “grouping.” </p>

<p>When the “Bright, Well-Rounded Kids” (BWRK’s) of Rachel Toor fame/infamy were experiencing their “slaughter” from Duke admissions & possibly similar schools, it was not because they were white or had white-sounding names. They were put in a pile because they grouped themselves, based on their own activities/lifestyle and sameness of application. In fact, the students from that Caucasian group who benefited were precisely the ones that stood out from those of their “group.” They appeared so different that they rose above & received special consideration. Those students had not changed their names; nor actually had they deliberately changed their activities so as to pose as “different.” It was not a pose at all, not a matter of clever gaming. It was mainly one of two things: (1) they had devoted a great amount of energy to a particular activity that was unusual (a nonstandard “passion”), and/or (2) they had accomplished great things against tremendous personal odds. </p>

<p>Be who you are. Colleges may continue to look for the impressive student, but they hardly want that at the expense of being genuine and oneself. That would include a name identity and an ethnic identity. And to refuse an interview when offered one is not the best strategy for success.</p>

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<p>What a nice post, Epiphany. Good advice too.</p>

56

<p>And to put a finer point on this, the unusual activity, if it is done out of obedience, will still not be what the offices are looking for. They ARE looking for Ben Franklin, whether they know it or not. I was watching TV, football, which I rarely do. They had a profile of the Dallas quarterback, Romo. Father is Mexican. Grew up in Burlington. At the age of ~12, wrote on a football that he still has, “I Play for Love of the Game.” Wasn’t any great shakes in high school. Not even drafted to the NFL. Signs as a free agent. And the rest is history. THAT is the story America likes, over and over again, in all its different guises.</p>

57

<p>Two thoughts that have been swishing around my head for a few days about this thread (and other similar ones), one a little frivolous, one not:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>An interesting demographic anomaly is just starting to hit colleges now, but will accelerate over the next decade: ethnic Chinese kids who were adopted and raised by white American families. Most of these kids will not have “Asian” names, but some will. Lots of them will have some significant “Asian” ECs or interests, because their families are encouraging that. Anyway, I suspect that on the whole these kids will not look to college admissions offices like the “Asians” we have been talking about here. They will look more like the Jews, WASPs, whatever they were raised to be. This will provide a test of whether discrimination (if it exists) is based on race or culture.</p></li>
<li><p>If I were King of Harvard or some such, I would be concerned about this issue. I think Alumother and others have done a great job of describing the prevailing establishment (i.e., HYP admissions) attitude and ideology, in a sympathetic way, and largely it is my attitude and ideology, too. (I’m an establishment tool, natch, and would be if I were King of Harvard, too.) But attitudes and ideologies like that can blind one in critical ways.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>As King of Harvard, I would not want to be missing out on the future leaders and scholars coming out of ethnic Asian communities just because they didn’t look exactly like future Jewish, WASP, or African-American leaders at 17. I might hypothesize that kids who might grow up to be Chou En-lai, or Maxine Hong Kingston, or Tan Dun, or I.M. Pei, or [insert science Nobelist whose name I don’t know here] could present a significantly more “dutiful” appearance at 17 than their white counterparts, and might have a different mix of ECs in high school. I would want to research that, get a sense whether it was true, and how true, and how it might be changing over time, before I was completely comfortable letting my admissions office tell me, “Well, we value leadership, independence and innovation over conformity, filial piety and technical proficiency.” Sure, we do; I do. But there are plenty of independent, innovative leaders who at 17 looked more like the Good Child than Rebel Without A Cause. I would want to be certain – not just to accept on faith – that I was not missing some of “the best” students by applying my American cultural standards to kids whose families were not completely assimilated to those standards.</p>

58

<p>Academic and test score excellence resulting from constant brow beating and devoid of intellectual curiousity is also not looked upon very well by adcoms, and they can smell it a mile away. Again, with the disadvantaged category, it can be overlooked, but when you move away from that,an uninterested, uninspired top student who is edging towards burnout or looks that way, is not considered a good catch by adcom of top schools who don’t need those great stats.</p>

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<p>But I’d like to respond to what someone else said on this thread, regarding possibly asking the “wrong” question or going down the wrong road. Something is missing if immigrants mistakenly believe that (a) the only, or the best, road to success is The Yellow Brick Road of HYPS, and/or that (b) it’s a liability to be an immigrant (and “therefore” an immigrant needs an “edge.”) No one’s seen a few immigrants? Including successful ones who did not graduate from HYP? Including ones who didn’t change their names? There aren’t several million immigrants here, & they’re not represented in practically every occuption one can think of?</p>

<p>The best chance anyone has, of any ethnicity, to be accepted to a fine college, to do well at that college, to stand out at that college & enter a thriving career, is to find a college that matches the student as the student really is – not driven by others, not pursuing an elusive goal that may or may not work out for him or her. In many cases that may be a non-HYP school – a U or college which has similar opportunities, but where that student will be a Big Fish in a Smaller Pond (i.e., fewer students just like oneself).</p>

60

<p>“As King of Harvard, I would not want to be missing out on the future leaders and scholars coming out of ethnic Asian communities just because they didn’t look exactly like future Jewish, WASP, or African-American leaders at 17. I”</p>

<p>But, the truth is that there’s an overabundance of highly qualified applicants of all races except African American (non African immigrants or immigrants’ kids), Mexican Americans, Puerto Ricans and Native Americans.</p>

<p>Indeed, there’s such an overabundance that plenty of future leaders and scholars of all races even including URMs will be turned away because there’s simply not space for them.</p>

<p>Unless Harvard decides to greatly expand (which I hope doesn’t happen because that would make it into a completely different university), there still will be future leaders and scholars turned away, who’ll find homes at other outstanding universities.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, there are plenty of Asians with the stereotypical Asian ECs and academic interests who are accepted. Harvard, however needs leaders and scholars who are in fields in addition to pre med, engineering and classica music, so filling those slots is more important than having an excess of students who play classical piano and violin and plan to become doctors. </p>

<p>Harvard wants to produce politicians, social workers, teachers, lawyers, business leaders, environmentalists, journalists, opera singers, actors, punk rockers,film makers, etc.</p>