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<p>That line of reasoning is definitely worth considering. But it is basically like (to go back to my former example) assuming that all Americans agree with all American laws because they voluntarily live in this country.</p>
<p>So spit it out. Do you agree with policies prohibiting gay adults from serving as leaders in scouts? We all recognize they have that right. Is it a policy you agree with / support?</p>
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<p>I haven’t really thought a lot about this issue.</p>
<p>If adults are prevented from helping, I would make it be on the basis of not being a parent of the troop, not sexual orientation. Obviously, if a gay couple adopts, this is not relevant.</p>
<p>On the other hand, the ability of the troop to decide its own Scoutmaster is also important – regardless of who that Scoutmaster is.</p>
<p>Well Pizzagirl, there are lots of other organizations that are homophobic. Do you feel the same way about them? I don’t care what consenting adults do in their bedroom and neither does the BSA.</p>
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<p>Although you’re not speaking to me here, I don’t agree with this policy. I also don’t agree with the policy of the military in not allowing gays to serve. Do you also feel that the military is tainted, and cannot produce ethical leaders? I imagine that you think the military is a large organization, and can accept that some who join and serve actually don’t agree with discrimination against gay soldiers, and that there are some very excellent people in the military, even though this policy exists. Would you be willing to grant this same leeway to the scouts in the BSA organization, Pizzagirl?</p>
<p>Or do you feel that everyone in the military is tainted because of the gay exclusion?</p>
<p>So did this kid ever get his Eagle?</p>
<p>Would any of you have this same reaction to a kid who received a high youth award from the Roman Cathlic Church (or one of a large number of mainstream Protestant churches that also teach that homosexuality is a sin)?</p>
<p>Scouting changes over time–very slowly, certainly. It has brought in female leaders, and includes adherents of a lot of different religions. It’s my opinion that a change in position on gay leaders will eventually come, unless the organization withers away first to only include specific religious groups. As others have mentioned, this leaves people involved in the organization with the decision of whether the good things BSA provides outweighs the negatives. There are plenty of people in the organization who disagee with some of the membership policies, but who think the benefits outweigh them–especially since most people never see the membership policies affect anybody directly, and they aren’t involved at all in the materials that are provided and taught to the scouts (with the exception of vaguely worded reverence provisions).</p>
<p>FWIW, my biggest problem with the BSA and homophobia is not the exclusion of gay leaders–although that represents a tedious inability to distinguish between gay people and pedophiles–but the expulsion of gay Eagle Scouts simply because they are gay.</p>
<p>I do not accept the idea that gayness=low moral character or whatever the excuse for expulsion is.</p>
<p>I think the BSA were freaked by having found they attracted pedophiles, as does every other organization that has adults working with youth. Both my H & my brother were disturbed by the way certain scoutmasters behaved towards some of the boys, and this is many years ago & in 2 different states. I am certain that molestation also took place.</p>
<p>I know that pedophiles and gays are not the same thing! I am saying I think the one thing has caused them to freak out about the other. </p>
<p>I have only daughters, so the boy thing has not come up for me as a parent. But I wonder about one thing—while I read that gays supposedly are not attracted to boys, only other gay men, I find it hard to believe. I know hundreds of straight men who find looking at pretty teenage girls to be just fine. Why wouldn’t gay men feel the same about teenage boys? </p>
<p>I know that while it is “look, don’t touch,” with men & girls, there are also plenty of men in their 20s who date teenage girls and even do more than date. Surprise!</p>
<p>So, why wouldn’t gay young men be tempted to do te same with teenage boys? </p>
<p>That is what I believe is the issue for BSA, regarding gays. Maybe I am wrong; not having sons I haven’t been as close to the issue as others. </p>
<p>GSUSA doesn’t have quite same same problems – for one thing it is an entirely separate organization from BSA even though Scout is in the name. So can form its own policies. </p>
<p>For another thing, on stuff like “God” GSUSA has decided that every girl is free to have her own definition of what or who “God” is. That we are Scouts, not theologians. So if that word means “'spiritual principles” or something to one girl, and it means “Father Son and Holy Spirit” or “Allah” to another, fine. </p>
<p>On gays—no sexual contact is ever allowed with the girls. On teaching/discussion about sexuality, HIV, dating issues, and other things like that, the content of the program has to be shown to the parents first and they have to sign off on it. No approve, no teach. </p>
<p>GSUSA also now has a “two deep” policy as do the BSA. Two adults with girls at all times.</p>
<p>“GSUSA also now has a “two deep” policy as do the BSA. Two adults with girls at all times.”</p>
<p>The BSA two deep policy is not the same as the GSUSA.</p>
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I’m not aware of anybody other than leaders being expelled for being gay. Dale was an Eagle Scout, but he was a 21-year-old scout leader, not a youth member, when he was expelled. Does the National Eagle Scout Association expel life members for being gay? I’m not aware of that, and it’s not highlighted on the main websites seeking changes in BSA’s policy. I also believe that BSA does not claim to strip Eagle rank from people who announce they are gay.</p>
<p>I recall reading/hearing/seeing a program about several expulsions a number of years ago, because of sexuality in some cases and religion in others. My recollection is that pursuing such expulsions seemed to be a new development in the organization, and therefore drew attention. I did a quick google and found Tim Curran, who was expelled at the age of 19 for being gay. He was not a troop leader. There may well be others. I don’t know anything about the various organizations within the BSA umbrella.</p>
<p>In any case, why expel Dale? Why not just tell him that he can’t be a leader? I don’t agree with the latter either, but it seems that the guy still earned his Eagle and has not done anything to deserve expulsion from the organization, unless one assumes that all gay people are of low moral character.</p>
<p>I can’t get over the idea that some guy who is on his fifth wife can continue to be a member, no problem, but a gay 19 yr old needs to be kicked out.</p>
<p>Years ago I read that an increased militancy regarding these issues on the part of the national and/or some regional BSA organizations was being driven–in the opinion of some observers–by the influence of the Mormon church. Some large proportion of troops were being sponsored by LDS churches, a very high proportion of Mormon boys were joining, and Mormons represented a large number, possibly even a majority, of the board. I’d be interested to know what the BSA members here think of that, especially those who involved with the BSA at high levels.</p>
<p>Isn’t telling him he can’t be a leader (Dale) and kicking him out the same thing?</p>
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<p>The difference to me is that a man understands these policies when he joins the military and makes an informed decision. Parents who place their child in scouts at a young age may not realize their son is gay. When they do, will they regret enrolling him in a discriminatory organization during an impressionable stage of life? </p>
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<p>Yes, I have the same reaction about the Church. It is a very problematic place for a gay child at this time – ymmv</p>
<p>"Yes, I have the same reaction about the Church. It is a very problematic place for a gay child at this time – ymmv "</p>
<p>Gay children or do you children of gay partners?</p>
<p>Any outcome on this situation?</p>
<p>Yes, I am very curious – I hope that he earned the rank of Eagle Scout.</p>
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<p>Not really, unless you disagree with Church teaching, in which case you have bigger issues to resolve (like ensuring that you are not actually excommunicated lata sententia for heresy, depending on the severity of the disagreement). What a tired and fallacious argument.</p>
<p>I hear the boy scouts are on the rise again. Or maybe they never died down? Anyway colleges look a lot at activities like Boy Scouts and community service so if your kid has any ounce of passion left for scouts he should stick with it. Boy Scouts can make up for a weaker GPA at some colleges so its pretty good to stick with it.</p>
<p>However if he hates scouts so much then he should quit.</p>
<p>Ok, reading through some of this thread, it seems that if SOME of the posters were on admission committees, they would be repelled by a student who achieved Eagle scout, given the homophobia of BSA, but how common is that IRL? </p>
<p>In general, are some schools going to look at it negatively and others positively based on their degree of bias? Or will it be a rare case and most will see it as a positive achievement?</p>
<p>My Eagle Scout hasn’t had any problems with admissions to schools or internships/fellowships, and he’s even used his Scoutmaster’s rec for an extra in many cases.
He’s a Pomona grad, and Pomona is a pretty liberal college. I don’t think they assume that the boy has the same view of the world as the old guard in the organization. They look at the whole picture. I know that the Eagle is one of the awards that counts towards leadership points at some of the University of California campuses, so a definite plus there.</p>