<p>“You talk as though the policies that are not liked are the color of their uniforms or the flavor of popcorn they sell. It is a perfectly legitimate stand to choose not to join or support an organization that engages in discrimination, bigotry and prejudice. It is your choice to overlook these things but you have no right to condemn those who won’t.”</p>
<p>Since the BSA is a private organization they have a right to set their own membership standards. Are you allowed to join alumni groups for colleges you didn’t graduate from? Are those groups discriminatory, bigoted and prejudicial?</p>
<p>I’m not condemning anyone. I’m not even trying to defend BSA’s policies because they are quite simply irrelevant to all of Scouting activities, except a few isolated cases in which the outcome would have been identical even if the policies were not in place. That last sentence is actually irrelevant to my point, so just ignore it or disagree with it and move in.</p>
<p>It’s quite simple: Scouting does some good. Even if it does some bad, it is absolutely ludicrous to hold each one of its members responsible for taking part in an organization that is unique and therefore has no close substitutes. They are not responsible for BSA policies, and all that can be inferred from BSA membership is the belief that the benefits of the organization outweigh the drawbacks.</p>
<p>What possible difference does it make what faith Consolation personally professes (or doesn’t)?</p>
<p>And of <em>course</em> an alumni organization from a college I didn’t graduate from would be discriminatory and bigoted – if it didn’t let gay alumni of that college in! I mean, really – who goes around getting so upset about gay people in the first place and being afraid to let them belong to organizations? This is 2010, not 1910.</p>
<p>“What possible difference does it make what faith Consolation personally professes (or doesn’t)?”</p>
<p>Your faith helps shape your values and opinions.</p>
<p>"And of <em>course</em> an alumni organization from a college I didn’t graduate from would be discriminatory and bigoted – if it didn’t let gay alumni of that college in! I mean, really – who goes around getting so upset about gay people in the first place and being afraid to let them belong to organizations? This is 2010, not 1910. "</p>
<p>Are you allowed to join an alumni organization for a school you didn’t graduate from? Isn’t that discriminatory? </p>
<p>Yup it is 2010 but there are some things that don’t need to change.</p>
<p>Boy Scouting has it’s roots in the military, and consequently, some of it’s prejudices, such as they are, stem from that. It’s my belief that when our military ceases to discriminate based on sexual orientation, so will the BSA organization.<br>
Scouting is a very traditional organization and isn’t going to be ahead of the curve on this kind of thing. Change is coming within our society at large, fortunately, and Scouting will follow.</p>
<p>I think kids should only be involved in ECs that they find rewarding, period.</p>
<p>Or not. People can have great values and have no faith in a God or greater power or organized religion at all. One has very little to do with the other. And, of course, “having faith” in God or greater power or organized religion doesn’t naturally lead to the conclusion that “therefore the BSA are just so right-on in disallowing gay leaders and discriminating against gay members.” </p>
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<p>So you’re in favor of discrimination towards gay people? Cool. Good to know. At least make your stance known. </p>
<p>Yes, the BSA as a private organization has that <em>right.</em> Doesn’t mean that other people can’t find it eyeroll-worthy and offensive.</p>
<p>Wonder why the GSA doesn’t need to be all uptight about Teh Gayz?</p>
<p>Precisely. My original point was simply that one should not assume that people will <em>automatically</em> react completely positively to simply hearing that a kid is an Eagle Scout. This may be hard for people heavily involved in scouting to understand. </p>
<p>You should realize that in addition to some of us having reservations about the national leadership of the organization, most of us have no idea what a kid has to do to earn the designation, beyond a vague idea of the existence of merit badges. The great kid I mentioned earlier was not inducted into the NHS junior year, probably because on the form he just put down that he was an Eagle Scout, rather than explaining at length what he did to earn it. (I was astonished by his non-induction and asked his mother about it, which is how I know. He did get in sr year.) </p>
<p>BTW, I have read that the increase in expulsions for nonconformism coincided with the increasing domination of scouting by the LDS. The implication was that the BSA seemed to be heading in the opposite direction of the curve Moonchild describes, not simply following it more slowly. Any comment?</p>
<p>The question is whether that position (i.e., reacting negatively) has any validity whatsoever – I have been explaining why I think that answer is no.</p>
<p>But the BSA are a homophobic organization, Baelor. Why <em>shouldn’t</em> someone react negatively to honors bestowed by / earned in such an organization? </p>
<p>Not that I’m comparing the BSA to the KKK, but if a kid put on his college app that he had achieved Junior Grand Wizard status in his regional area of the KKK - might it be ok to react negatively to that, even though achieving Junior Grand Wizard status might, objectively speaking, have taken a lot of hard work and effort? Or a similar position in the John Birch Society?</p>
<p>Yes. And that is not irreconcilable with what I’m saying because the explicit purpose of the KKK is to be discriminatory. That is by no means the case with the BSA. The comparison is ridiculous.</p>
<p>Furthermore, it is not the work about which I am talking at all. I am concerned with the leader formation that is the purpose of the BSA program.</p>
<p>It doesn’t matter that the explicit purpose of the BSA is not to be discriminatory. The fact is, they could wipe away their discriminatory policies easily if they so chose to. They don’t. So, while they may serve a laudable purpose in terms of teaching leadership skills and so forth, they still do so under a discriminatory banner. I can recognize that an Eagle Scout is apparently a big accomplishment, while still cringing that the BSA are so dated and antiquated in caring about what people do in the privacy of their bedrooms when the rest of society has moved on from that.</p>
<p>Baelor, the fuller picture of what I am saying is that many people react in a NEUTRAL manner to the Eagle thing. It simply doesn’t impress them. They just don’t know much about it. People in scouting often seem to assume that the mere mention of the Eagle designation will impress everyone. It’s not true. </p>
<p>And it really doesn’t matter whether YOU think people’s reactions are “valid” or not. They are what they are.</p>
<p>The moral of the story, which is quite far afield from the original question, is that kids who are depending on Eagle Scout activities to impress people on applications need to explain in detail what those activities were, and explain what effect the program had on them: just like any other EC.</p>
<p>Yes. Exactly. I hear that an Eagle Scout is a big deal, but really, I have no idea what makes it such a big deal – nor am I interested enough to really pursue it further. It conjures up merit badges and camping. Maybe it’s more than that. Who knows? But more importantly, why would people not in Scouting particularly care enough to be knowledgeable about it? </p>
<p>Disclaimer: Both my kids were in Scouts (in elementary school) and I was a Brownie leader for D.</p>
<p>We are in the process of moving on, but we haven’t yet. When gays can marry legally in this country in most of the states, then I’ll believe that we’ve moved on.<br>
Removing DADT is a very important step in this process. Once the military truly protects equality for all, then you’ll see changes in Scouting and in most other segments of society. The armed forces are the key, really, as I see it. </p>
<p>And they’re moving, two steps forward and one step backward. Change is within reach of the next generation.</p>
<p>Actually, that’s what makes your example nonsensical. The purpose of the KKK is to discriminate; that is not the case for BSA.</p>
<p>So whether you like their policies or not, the fact is that the BSA’s purpose is to raise ethical leaders, which some (serious) blips on the way. The KKK’s purpose is to be discriminatory. Clearly, no comparison whatsoever.</p>
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<p>You are correct; it does not. Nor did I claim that it does. That doesn’t mean that I cannot try to change reactions or perceptions that I find unfounded.</p>
<p>I support the BSA’s right to have it’s own membership policies.</p>
<p>“Yes. Exactly. I hear that an Eagle Scout is a big deal, but really, I have no idea what makes it such a big deal – nor am I interested enough to really pursue it further.”</p>
<p>And therein lies the problem. Not interested to find out more about it but willing to bash what you don’t understand.</p>
<p>Well, I think some people can question whether an organization that is discriminatory with regard to sexual identity can truly raise ethical leaders, because they might perceive that an ethical leader would speak out against such policies (or at least remove himself from association with them).</p>
<p>BalconyBoy – I have little doubt that the goals of the Eagle Scout program are “good” goals, and that there is a lot of laudable hard work that goes into achieving that honor within the organization. However, I also know – for a fact – that the organization is homophobic. That taints it. At least for people who are sophisticated enough to not care what grown adults do in the privacy of their own bedrooms. For people who are afraid of catching Teh Gay, well, then, I guess it is a big deal.</p>
<p>Some of the things that make attaining Eagle Scout a “big deal” are the fact that as a young child, moving up the ranks are rather daunting. In scouting, the Eagle must move up through 6 ranks, and earn at least 21 merit badges. The scout has a chance to establish themselves as a leader, demonstrate character, drive, and commitment. I think that earning this rank says quite a bit about the scout. It shows the ability to set goals, and then meet those those goals through hard work, planning, determination, and leadership. I think that attaining this rank is a tremendous accomplishment and shows years of dedication.</p>
The great kid I mentioned earlier was not inducted into the NHS junior year, probably because on the form he just put down that he was an Eagle Scout, rather than explaining at length what he did to earn it. (I was astonished by his non-induction and asked his mother about it, which is how I know. He did get in sr year.) </p>