<p>BalconeyBoy,
Obviously you know nothing about Boy Scouts. Scouts, for most boys starts in first grade. By your logic because a young boy started scouts at age 6 or 7 he is supposed to stay in it until he is maybe 18? I’m all for following through on commitments but you are taking your argument to an unrealistic extreme. </p>
<p>Our kids could try anything they wanted but they had to finish out the year or the season - it was never a life sentence. :)</p>
<p>And as I’ve mentioned a few times, The OP has left the building - this thread was stared two years ago.</p>
<p>Cub Scouts currently starts with Tiger Cubs in 1st Grade and ends in the 5th grade. Boy Scouts is the next and is completely different. I was a Cubmaster, Committee Chair, Assistant Scoutmaster and Scoutmaster. I’ve been involved for a very long time.</p>
<p>I am not suggesting a boy stay in Scouting all the way through, although that would be great. If he signs up as a Tiger Cub and doesn’t like it, he doesn’t have to sign up the next year. And if he signs up as a Wolf and doesn’t like it, he doesn’t have to sign up as a Bear. Cub Scout packs and Boy Scout troops recharter each calendar year.</p>
<p>So by my logic, the boy would sign up for Boy Scouts for one year and if he didn’t like it he wouldn’t have to sign up again. Likewise, he could sign up for one baseball season and if he didn’t like it, he wouldn’t have to sign up again.</p>
<p>I’m going to come at this from a totally different point of view. I have worked over the last ten years or so with about twelve kids on their eagle scout projects. I am not a scout master, I was their point of contact within a community group, however, most of them I have known since they were little boys. I would say that most of the kids are nice, hard working, competent kids, who will go on to be successful, happy adults. Only one really stood out as a leader, someone who will make a profound mark on his community, or even the larger community, but that boy showed those tendencies even as a young boy. Interestingly, he is not the smartest of the kids I’ve worked with, or the most popular, but he had something that made other people stop and listen to him,to agree to work with him, to get things done. On the other hand there is one kid who I am pretty sure will grow up to commit insurance fraud. So I am not convinced that Eagle Scout on its own makes a kid a leader – I think it is more a confluence of his life experiences. So if your kid tries Boy Scouts and it doesn’t work for him, let it go, help him find what will make him a happy, successful adult.</p>
<p>No wonder you are convinced that no one views Eagle scouts negatively.</p>
<p>FYI, I am among the many who take a dim view of the scouts organization for their homophobia and religious restrictions. If I were reading an application I would endeavor not to hold it against the kid, of course. (Especially if other aspects of his application showed that he was unlikely to be a bigot.) I am aware that many troops simply ignore all of that and would never think of kicking a kid out for being gay or not being willing to talk the God talk. And of course most kids become involved with scouting before such issues have crossed their minds. Nevertheless, I would not regard being an Eagle Scout or any other long term activity as necessarily a plus in and of itself. It would depend how the kid wrote/talked about its significance in their life.</p>
<p>FWIW, I’ve known two Eagle Scouts. One is a great kid. The other was–literally–a multiple murderer.</p>
<p>“FWIW, I’ve known two Eagle Scouts. One is a great kid. The other was–literally–a multiple murderer.”</p>
<p>And I would bet the same could be said for a million other things, too.</p>
<p>Earning the Eagle award is not a walk in the park. How could you possibly hold the earning of this award against him? Because he might be a bigot? That is one heck of a stretch and a little bigoted on your part, Consolation.</p>
<p>Kids in America are over-scheduled and overworked enough as it is. If they try an EC and don’t like it they should be able to quit, whether it is Boy Scouts, ballet, or basket-weaving. Pretty simple actually. ECs are supposed to be about the kid, not the parents, at least that is how it should be. The world won’t stop turning if a kid quits mid-stream in an EC. They’ll just find something else–or nothing else–to do. They may even decide to take a nap in the afternoon, which we all know is a very unproductive activity :)</p>
<p>My husband, an Eagle Scout, had my son join the Cub Scouts many years ago. Then, my husband became very involved, in my opinion, too involved. It was stressful on our marriage for a number of years to say the least, but as frustrated as I was with the time my husband spent in it, I was as proud of what my son was learning. My son did eventually become an Eagle Scout and I honestly think his experiences were great at teaching him to take care of things. I also know plenty of boys who never joined Scouts or were only in it a few years who have turned out to be great adults. </p>
<p>Boy Scouts is one of many great activities your child could get involved in, but if he doesn’t enjoy it, Scouts is not the right one. Maybe if his Scout load lightened up so he didn’t have to spend every weekend doing a Scout activity he might like it more? I don’t know.</p>
<p>Toblin and BalconyBoy, disliking homophobia makes me a bigot in your book? :rolleyes: Oh well.</p>
<p>I accept that the Boy Scouts have a right, as a private organization, to have rules about religious belief. As long as they use no public resources without paying for them–just as I would expect my church youth group to have to pay for them–that’s their business. You guys will have to square the ethics of accepting a 6 yr old into the group, encouraging him to invest heavily of his time and emotions, then be willing to kick him out when he’s 16 because he now knows he’s gay or he isn’t willing to lie and profess belief in “god.” Maybe that doesn’t bother you one bit. It would bother me.</p>
<p>Well, Consolation, considering your opinion on the BSA, yes you are bigoted toward the BSA. BTW, what faith do your profess?</p>
<p>So it would be ethical for a boy to lie about his belief in God to stay a member of the BSA but unethical to remove him if he didn’t profess a belief in God? Talk about a double standard!</p>
<p>“Kids in America are over-scheduled and overworked enough as it is. If they try an EC and don’t like it they should be able to quit, whether it is Boy Scouts, ballet, or basket-weaving. Pretty simple actually. ECs are supposed to be about the kid, not the parents, at least that is how it should be. The world won’t stop turning if a kid quits mid-stream in an EC. They’ll just find something else–or nothing else–to do. They may even decide to take a nap in the afternoon, which we all know is a very unproductive activity”</p>
<p>No the world won’t stop turning if the kid quits, but I feel it teaches them that they don’t have to see things through and this could translate to other more important areas.</p>
<p>What, like saying in a poor relationship or not speaking up when your expectations aren’t being met? ;)</p>
<p>Also, as a note about boy scouts. My dad was a full eagle scout and spent most of his summers growing up at a boy scout’s camp. He was also a Jew from NYC. He still keeps in touch with a couple of his friends from those days even though many are retired and living on opposite ends of the country!</p>
<p>Actually, my opinion of BSA policy makers in recent decades is based on specific actions and policies of the BSA that are in direct conflict with my principles. I don’t think that qualifies as “bigotry,” which is normally an unreasoning dislike or hatred founded on misapprehensions. My dim view of some elements in the BSA does not extend to the kids, who get into it very innocently, or to troop leaders who are just trying to help kids and don’t care whether the kid is gay or an atheist at 16.</p>
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<p>I am a member of a denomination whose Faith in Life–I think that’s the name of it-- curriculum was rejected by the BSA. According to my understanding, this was because our denomination’s principle that we affirm the innate worth and dignity of every human being was in conflict with some of the BSA’s policies. I don’t know where it stands now.</p>
<p>Personally, I do not profess any faith, if by that you mean adhering to a religious creed or belief in a god.</p>
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<p>I don’t know where you got this idea. I definitely do NOT think that it would be ethical for a boy to lie about his beliefs to stay in the BSA. I take such things very seriously.</p>
<p>On the other hand, most of the time when this comes up, people who are involved in the BSA talk about how most troops ignore this requirement and expect kids to, well, calling a spade a spade, evade or lie about it if they don’t believe in god or aren’t certain whether they believe in god. WHich I find rather ironic.</p>
<p>As I said, the BSA is a private organization, and it can make its own rules. That doesn’t mean everyone else has to like them, and if you think they do, you are mistaken. The Girl Scouts typically don’t get this reaction from people because they are not known to be in the business of dictating sexuality or religious beliefs.</p>
<p>With regard to forcing a kid to stay in, one of our local Eagle Scout candidates, when talking about shooting and killing his mother, father and two little brothers, complained that his Dad wouldn’t let him quit Scouts and forced him to go on the camping trips. The Dad was his Scoutmaster.</p>
<p>“I don’t know where you got this idea. I definitely do NOT think that it would be ethical for a boy to lie about his beliefs to stay in the BSA. I take such things very seriously.”</p>
<p>I got this based on your post of</p>
<p>"You guys will have to square the ethics of accepting a 6 yr old into the group, encouraging him to invest heavily of his time and emotions, then be willing to kick him out when he’s 16 because he now knows he’s gay or he isn’t willing to lie and profess belief in “god.” "</p>
<p>"On the other hand, most of the time when this comes up, people who are involved in the BSA talk about how most troops ignore this requirement and expect kids to, well, calling a spade a spade, evade or lie about it if they don’t believe in god or aren’t certain whether they believe in god. WHich I find rather ironic.'</p>
<p>I know of no one in the BSA who would encourage a Scout to lie about anything.</p>
<p>“I am a member of a denomination whose Faith in Life–I think that’s the name of it-- curriculum was rejected by the BSA.”</p>
<p>Interesting. Why was this curriculum rejected by the BSA? Does your denomination charter BSA units?</p>
<p>As I said, my understanding was that the curriculum–which I’m assuming was probably a revision?-- suggested that certain policies of the BSA were in conflict with one of our stated Principles: “We affirm the innate worth and dignity of every human being.” I don’t recall what the ultimate resolution was. </p>
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<p>I know that some churches in the denomination certainly did so, and for a very long time. I think that some still may, I’m not sure. I know people who are members of my church who were involved in Scouting for All.</p>
<p>Now I understand. You belong to a UU church. And I assume you are talking about the curriculum for the religious award for the UU that would be awarded to a Scout? If that is so, the BSA has a religious award for your denomination.</p>
<p>Evidently they came to some accommodation, then. I actually recall a boy from the Scouting for All family being recognized during church one Sunday for receiving the award. (He studied for it with our gay minister. )</p>
<p>As an Eagle Scout, I will say that Scouting is honestly probably the best extracurricular I’ve ever been done. It’s isn’t really even an EC – it’s something more substantial. To treat it on the same level as, say, math team (I was a very avid member), is ridiculous. The purpose of Scouting is to prepare ethical leaders. The program is imperfect, but there are very few other activities that are like Boy Scouts in mission and approach. It is unique.</p>
<p>Therefore, it’s not a matter of just quitting because you don’t like it. Push a little bit, and if it doesn’t work out, so be it. But Scouting is definitely valuable.</p>
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<p>But don’t make the mistake of faulting the kids for the policies over which they have no control. That’s like a company that has a certain ethic turning down a candidate who has chosen to live in a country with whose policies they disagree – absurd. The student need not be affected at all by the national policies. Most are probably unaware of the BSA’s official stance. So to judge them would be like judging a U.S. citizen because you think the American government is intolerant and the citizen does indeed choose to live here.</p>
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<p>Please. At least answer honestly. Your “understanding” is useless here because that is clearly not what the BSA sent back as a justification with their rejection of your curriculum.</p>
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<p>Corrected.</p>
<p>Honestly, if you can’t look past the few BSA policies that you dislike and see the greater good in the organization, I don’t know how you can live on this planet at all, unless you have somehow found a way to shelter yourself from every single entity that disagrees with you on any count.</p>
<p>You talk as though the policies that are not liked are the color of their uniforms or the flavor of popcorn they sell. It is a perfectly legitimate stand to choose not to join or support an organization that engages in discrimination, bigotry and prejudice. It is your choice to overlook these things but you have no right to condemn those who won’t.</p>
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