<p>“Parents would feel weirdly spied upon.” Pro: parent may recognize potential for child being “weirdly spied upon” in not-as-private-as-child-thinks forum. Con: unthinking parent might think their discomfort outweighs potential danger to child. </p>
<p>“Might ignore.” Pro: OP can sleep at night. Con: Kid can’t choose her parents.</p>
<p>Thanks for all the feedback. Each of you has made valid points. Shawbridge, I love your pro & con list!</p>
<p>violadad, the girl in question is 17. </p>
<p>I’m not really THAT concerned about this girl’s safety, because I don’t think she’s really a heavy drinker. About a year or two ago, she and D were making fun of girls who have a half a beer at a party and proceeded to giggle and “stumble” around. They’re not really drunk - they’re just pretending to be so they can do what they want to do without being responsible for their actions (usually there’s a guy they like and want to hook up with, but if he ignores them the next day they can laugh it off and say, “Oh, I was so drunk, I never would have done that otherwise!”) Ironically I think that’s exactly what this girl is doing now. She’s always been a bit of a social climber, and to me these pictures scream, “Look at me, look how cool I am, I drink too, just like the popular kids!” The “liquor” bottles I referred to in both photos were actually Mike’s Hard Lemonade. The default photo came from an album where there are other pictures taken later in the evening when there were adults around (birthday party) and she looks perfectly sober in those photos.</p>
<p>Starbright, you’re right, what really bothers me is the hypocrisy - I could deal with it until she made this particular photo her profile/default picture. I disagree that younger kids aren’t friends with older kids on FB… this girl has over 400 FB “Friends.” She’s an official “mentor” to 4 freshmen, I’m pretty sure they’re on her FB friends list because D is also a mentor and she said the group recommended that the mentors “friend” their mentees (or whatever you call people being mentored, ha ha). D is also in 2 of these 3 role model groups, and she hates that many of the kids in these groups are the biggest partiers in the school. Some of the kids in these groups have been to court for being Minors In Possession, and others have been taken to the hospital by ambulance because they passed out drunk. But none of them have ever been removed from these “role model” groups! I think this default photo is just the last straw for me. I feel like if the advisor saw a printout of this girl’s FB page, she’d be forced to either enforce some standards or admit that she has given up completely and these groups are a total joke. Now that I write that, I realize I’m almost as angry with the group advisor as I am with the girl in the pictures.</p>
<p>And yes, some of this is just me being vindictive because Little Miss Proud Drinker has been an absolute b**** to my D. That’s another reason I’ve kept my mouth shut, because I know my motives aren’t all that pure. I’m trying to convince myself that if D is just patient this will all eventually backfire on Drinker. These pictures make her look desperate and pathetic - even her college brother made a comment under one photo, “Oh sis, you’re soooooooo cool.” The popular kids, the ones who drink a LOT, have photos with ambiguous red plastic cups, or beer cans off to the side or in the background - they don’t make the alcohol the focal point of the picture.</p>
<p>But back to the parental argument that was mentioned - “If it was my kid, would I want to know?” Absolutely! And I have had exactly that situation, someone told me something they heard about my child. Although it wasn’t easy to hear, it opened my eyes and enabled me to get my kid the help she needed before things got any worse. If I want to pay that favor forward, I should print the photos and show them to the mom, face to face. But I’m too chicken to do that, because I don’t know if it will be a “thanks for telling me” or a “shoot the messenger.” And when this girl finds out it was me that showed the photo to her mom, she will do whatever she can to retaliate at D.</p>
<p>Another thing that bugs me is that this girl was one of the “good” kids. For a long time, she didn’t drink, and she and D made fun of kids who did. Then she got a job where she started hanging out with kids from another town, and suddenly she decided drinking was cool and fun. Now it’s like she’s gone over to the dark side, and I have to say, “Is there ANYONE left?” Our town has held meetings, and brought in speakers, and parents are wringing their hands over teen binge drinking. Yet here these kids are posting photos of themselves drinking on websites, and NOTHING happens. No wonder they don’t think they’re doing anything wrong. Most of these photos are taken in basement rec rooms. Apparently it’s easier for parents to turn their heads and be their kids’ friend than to be their parent and set limits. </p>
<p>I just feel like enough is enough. This is the last straw. If I don’t do something, if SOMEONE doesn’t do SOMETHING… these kids need to know that this is serious. So far there’s been no consequences. I feel like these kids - and this girl in particular - are almost BEGGING someone to set a limit, to enforce a rule!</p>
<p>Let it go. Concentrate on your own daughter.</p>
<p>^^^ NYsmile, you’re probably right. <em>sigh</em> I guess I’m just here venting. I think my concern over my daughter being targeted for retaliation will override my courage, and although I really should speak to this girl’s parents face to face, I don’t think I’ll have the guts to do it.</p>
<p>I guess I’m just as bad as the rest of the parents.</p>
<p>Not weighing in on the “should you or should’t you” issue, but if you do decide to contact any school district employee, be aware that school district email is a public record that any citizen can ask for. If the person you contact doesn’t purge your email, or replies and doesn’t purge the “sent” file, or forwards first and that person keeps the email, a public records request will tell who talked to the counselor.</p>
<p>If you decide to talk to school employees, do it in person or by phone.</p>
<p>Now on the “should you or shouldn’t you” part - are you close to another kid/parent pair who is outside your D’s conflict with this girl but would also have a stake in it - their kid is in one of the organizations… they have a younger student who has been “friended” by this girl… Maybe they would take a look at their kid’s facebook and give you an objective opinion. We haven’t seen the photos or read the posts.</p>
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<p>If I may say so, I think OP is concentrating on her own daughter, and this is why the scenario is so upsetting. (I have been through nearly identical situations). This is her D’s peer group and childhood. These are examples of the values she is growing up with. I think it is important for our kids to see us take a stand and do what is right, not just for ourselves, but for our communities. (cue music… :)) I am also tired of this behavior continuing and being tacitly condoned because no one wants to take a risk and do anything about it. What would be so horrible about turning this girl in? Obviously, she has not tried to make her behavior a secret. Perhaps it is exactly what she needs and wants - someone to take notice that she needs some limits in her life.</p>
<p>Don’t snitch. The other parents are going to be angry with their kids but no matter how you slice it, there’s a small part of their head that will be a little angry with you, the messenger. And the next time something happens to your kid… perhaps even one little drink at one little party… that parent is going to hear about it from their child… and she’s going to be particularly keen to telling you about it… and spreading it to everyone else within earshot. </p>
<p>Remember - no good deed ever goes un-punished.</p>
<p>If your motivation is concern for the child, then that is one thing but if your motivation is that this girl irritates you, then let it go. You’re the adult.</p>
<p>“What would be so horrible about turning this girl in?”</p>
<p>Because even the OP admits that the underlying reason for turning her in is to be vindictive. My guess is that this student on Facebook is highly regarded by the student body, teachers, and administration. It’s frustrating for any parent to see another kid get so much positive attention when we feel that our own kid isn’t getting enough. Her daughter is playing by the rules while the popular Facebook girl is not. Turning the girl in may give a temporary high or feeling that you did the right thing for the right reasons. After the fact however, you’ll regret the decision because you’ll realize that this had little to do with “saving” the girl and more to do with a “pay back”. </p>
<p>The OP is a good person. I can tell because she is honest in admitting that some of this does indeed have to do with being a bit vindictive. Let it go and hug your daughter.</p>
<p>“Don’t complain about the snow on your neighbor’s roof when your own doorstep is unclean”</p>
<p>you will never be able to perfect everyone’s children so focus on your own. </p>
<p>On the other hand, weigh the two options
1)If you tell, your daughter will lose friends and probably go through some emotional stress
2) If you don’t tell, it will be on your conscience and you will lose some sleep</p>
<p>What is more important to you?</p>
<p>I’m an unashamed lurker on facebook and myspace. My freshman s knew this and so he’s very cautious about what he posts because he’s learned from me that hey, it’s the internet! It is not private! If you don’t want me to see your drunken pictures, then keep them in your underwear drawer. My snooping stays in the cyber realm. </p>
<p>Lafalum, I understand your exasperation with the hypocrisy and duplicity of it all. I do think you have to protect your daughter so the school counselor is probably the way to go. And you’re right that the blatant nature of this stuff seems to be screaming for attention. I know absolutely that they want us to set boundaries. I worked with at-risk teens for years before I had my own kids, and I learned then how critical that structure and discipline is for a kid in those years. </p>
<p>I have also occasionally pondered the possibility of the anonymous note. I felt it would give the critical information without risking potential unpleasantness for me or my kids. It’s tempting, but unlike the facebook lurking, the idea of that actually did make me feel creepy. Also, I could not imagine doing it well. I am sure that with the best stealthy intentions I would thoughtlessly stick a return address label on it, or perhaps sign my name–maybe even see the parents and say, “Hey, did you get my letter?”</p>
<p>Lafalum, Being that there was a birthday party WITH adults in attendance, how do you even know that the kids weren’t just hamming it up for the camera with the adults’ Mike’s Hard Lemonade?! As far as this photo being her profile - you don’t even want to hear about the things some kids put in their profiles that are meant to be tongue in cheek. I agree that it’s dumb and many times ill-advised, but it doesn’t always make them guilty. Look, you may be 100% right and believe me, I know how emotional this subject is, especially when you think you may be the only sane parent left!</p>
<p>roshke, I’d believe it was the adult’s alcohol if this picture were an isolated one - but it’s not. There are multiple pictures from multiple days. At one point there is a comment from a friend that says, “Where’d you get this? You’ve been holding out on me!” and her reply is, “From my parents’ garage! lol”</p>
<p>Helenback, you’re right - the anonymous note just feels creepy. I guess that’s why I posted here, looking for feedback. I was kind of hoping I’d get flamed by people telling me not to do it, so I could feel justified in looking the other way instead of standing up and saying, “Enough is enough.”</p>
<p>Ok, on this type of thing, I think a lot of good suggestions have been made arguing for and against disclosure. My personal take is never do it anonymously. This has an extra mean aspect to the delivery. As to the hypocrisy, I could go on and on. Suffice it to say, that this happens everywhere in every aspect of almost every organization I have ever witnessed. The difference is usually in degree, but not in kind. Yeah, it is tough to swallow, when you have been raised to do the right thing, and you raise your kid that way, and “cheaters” prosper. I have known people to get a man of the year award who were anything but. If it is about trying to right a wrong in terms of the hypocrisy, fugedabout it. This is the unfortunate nature of people. There are tons of hypocrites. If it is necessary to save a life or something, well then go directly or through a discrete intermediary.</p>
<p>Here’s my opinion, for what it’s worth-</p>
<p>If your reasons are noble- to try to ensure that the girl doesn’t hurt herself, physically or future admissions/career wise, then you must disclose. If you think the girl may have a problem with alcohol then disclosure is needed. </p>
<p>The hypocrisy issue alone is not worth disclosure. </p>
<p>So- my advice, if you decide to act is:
<ol>
<li><p>Send an anonymous letter to the parents- the old fashioned way. No email, which can be traced even with an “anonymous” account. </p></li>
<li><p>In the letter admit that you are a parent that snooped, without revealing your identity, and just wanted them to know that the daughter’s pictures are out there in cyber land. Give encouragement to the parents and assure them that you decided not to notify school authorities, but that since the pictures are out there, others could. And colleges and employers can see them too, if they really want to. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>Yes, anonymous is creepy. But this is a situation that first and foremost needs to be addressed by the girl’s parents, without the potential of backlash to your daughter. Later, if you feel that the parents are truly negligent you could revisit the idea of letting school authorities know, but not at this point. I would not run this by your daughter- she has already said she fears backlash. Mail the letter from another town, if necessary, and make sure that there is nothing in it that could possibly identify your daughter. Don’t tell your daughter that you are doing this so she doesn’t have to lie about it if accused. This is action that you are taking based on ill-gotten information. </p>
<p>Again- I emphasize, only do this if you think there is a potential real problem with the girl. Don’t do it if it’s only a way to “pay back” for poor treatment of your D by her.</p>
<p>I don’t consider Lafalum to be snooping. If this girl is stupid enough to put up pictures of herself doing stupid things, that’s her problem. It doesn’t take any real investigative work to see the profile picture.</p>
<p>Before you read this, let me state that I absolutely believe for this thread, this kid in the photo is the real kid in real life. But I want to throw something out for others to consider more generally about FB:</p>
<p>We can’t know if someone’s FB profile is really them or not. </p>
<p>It is extremely easy to make a fake account or steal someone’s identity. I’ve seen it happen at our D’s school where other kids made an FB presence of picked on kid (and no way one would know its not their account).</p>
<p>I’ve seen my D create her own ‘fake’ person with her friends just to be goofy. </p>
<p>I know people with the exact same name and location can have FB accounts (because I am friends with someone with my name and we overlap with about 20 people). Do a FB search on a common name and you’ll see what I mean.</p>
<p>My point is any authorities, schools, employers or parents that want to punish someone for their FB presence ought to rethink this approach because there is no way to know for sure it is them (again no doubt in this particular case its probably legit, but I mean in general). So college X looks up Sue Richardson and viola, some mean kids at school have created a damning profile of her. Could easily happen.</p>
<p>This whole thing seems so muddled to me – the OP’s motivations, resentments towards this girl, Facebook, the actual issue of drinking, etc.</p>
<p>Until you have all this sorted out in your own mind, I wouldn’t do anything. Like you said, your motives are not pure right now.</p>
<p>I agree it is extremely difficult to know how or when to divulge painful information about a child to her parents. I’ve been in a similar situation recently, and ultimately ended up not teling because my D had told me things about a friend in confidence. Even though I knew I should, and in spite of knowing that sometimes (often), kids want their parents to know about their self destructive behavior (although a teen-ager will deny this until they are blue in the face). I think the only time I would go against my D would be an actual suicide threat.</p>
<p>Others would disagree with me on that, which is fine. I think the most important thing is to examine your own motives and if they are indeed “pure”, do what you feel is right, and out in the open. After all, if you are on moral high ground, there is no need to sneak around, right?</p>
<p>Lafalum: If she’s getting the alcohol from her parent’s garage, guess what, her parents drink too. Perhaps they’re not problem drinkers, but perhaps they are, and if that’s so, she’s finally decided that if you can’t beat 'em, join 'em. (Families who drink only rarely or moderately socially typically do not have the extra alcohol stored in the garage - they might have one bottle of brandy that lasts a few years for the Xmas eggnog, and maybe some wine for special dinner parties.) In families where there are drinking problems there are often tremendous pressures for all family members to drink, and of course, no one in the family can talk about the “elephant in the living room”. (Perhaps that’s why you want to do this anonymously - the elephant in the living room is a very ugly beast that no on wants to talk about. The beast’s real name is Suffering.). If her parents drink a lot, they are most likely to be unreceptive to outside interventions re: their daughter’s drinking. At best they will berate her for embarrassing them, at worst they will offer to pour her another beer and laugh about these “goody two shoes” she has to go to school with. Also, Mike’s Hard Lemonade is as strong as beer - alcohol is alcohol - kids can get plenty drunk on this stuff. If she’s your average skinny teenage girl, only 12 oz. of this stuff could put her over the legal limit.</p>
<p>So, here’s yet another option: Given that there may be alcohol problems in this girl’s family, she needs an understanding person who can help her start to talk about what’s really going on. If it is bad at home, the truth is very scary to talk about, but you will do her big favors if you can help her start and point her in the direction of others who can continue to help her. So, if you can find deep in yourself that part of you that really does care about the health and safety of this girl, talk to her yourself. Even though you don’t like her behavior or how she treated your daughter, there’s something there in that girl that is worthwhile - there is something worthwhile in most everyone. Talk to her from that place in your heart where you can connect to the part of her heart that’s hurting, the part that drives the drinking and irresponsible behavior. (People who are hurting often find ways to spread their hurt around outside themselves - just the sort of behavior this girl is demonstrating). Tell her that you’re worried that she’s having troubles, and that you are worried about her health and safety. Tell her how scary the drinking behavior is, and that you don’t want to see her harmed by it - the whole community would grieve terribly if anything happened to her. Tell her that the last thing you want to see is for her to get punished for this behavior, if she can have the opportunity to learn and correct her mistakes. Tell her that you wouldn’t be talking to her if you didn’t have faith in her ability to maturely consider your concern and learn how to take care of these issues. Tell her that you’re not going to take any further action than talking to her, since you truly don’t know whether she’s at genuine risk. Depending on the school guidance policies, tell her that she can safely reach out and talk to the school guidance counselor for help without fear of consequences. School guidance counselors are supposed to be able to keep confidentiality, and if the girl came forward and asked for help, she might be given help to solve these problems herself without negative repercussions.<br>
A little compassion can go a long way with most people. This girl needs and deserves it. She is seventeen, almost old enough to be legally responsible for herself, and if a caring adult talks to her in such a way as to engage her own sense of responsibility, that adult has given her a gift. Talk to her person to person, and also give her the gift of listening to her. Perhaps that’s a gift that she doesn’t get very often. Nothing may come of your little talk with her immediately, but if you can truly connect to her heart to heart, and have a moment with her when you have done this admirable human thing of safely holding her pain without judging her, you will have planted a powerful seed for growth for her. IMO human kindness is much more likely to help her than punishing or shaming her.</p>