Transformed, fine-tuned or hardly changed?

College Majors Musical Theater Majors
1

<p>I just saw a video of a senior recital of a friend of Ds who is finishing up a BFA program. Honestly, he seemed much the same as I’d remembered him as a high school senior (I’ve always loved him) – similar strengths and weaknesses – and it made me think again about the MT elephant in the room (at least for me).</p>

<p>Most of the MT performers I’ve watched go into BFA or BA-performance programs (including the very top programs) were extremely well trained before starting college, and I’d say I’ve noticed fine-tuning but nothing that I’d consider revolutionary, which always makes me wonder if (for those of us who will pay full price) it’s money well spent or not. I find myself wondering if these talented and motivated kids would have had much the same level of growth wherever they’d spent those 4 years. </p>

<p>DH reminds me that there’s a lot of important growth during those 4 years of college that has nothing to do with attaining tangible professional skills, and I know that’s true, but I am curious to hear what specific performance skills you feel that you or folks you know have attained during college.</p>

<p>For those who have either gone through, or watched others go through, a BFA or BA performance program, have you seen major or minor changes over the 4 years of the program? What specific changes?</p>

2

<p>Hmmm…I think you’ve broached a very touchy subject. We’ve been watching kids graduate from our performing arts HS for the past six years. In regards to BFA and BA training, (in my opinion) the kids who enter very talented usually graduate very talented. The kids who enter as average performers usually graduate as average performers (among their peers). Some of them improve (belt gets stronger, dance skills improve) but I have not seen HUGE improvements among my kids friends. The ones who have gotten performing jobs right out of college were usually the more talented ones in HS. (But there is always the random “right time, right place” factor for any actor.) </p>

<p>My kids have been “in the business” since they were small. We have seen the ups and downs of professional acting/MT and have been very adamant about our kids getting a college degree. To us, the mere fact that you have a degree (in anything) will be an advantage later in life. A couple of their friends have gone straight to Hollywood or to actor training programs and I always feel a little sad that they won’t have a college degree. Such a small percentage of people are able to make livings purely by acting and a degree will always help you get a job in the real world.</p>

3

<p>“You shall know a tree by the fruit it bears”. This is how I evaluate, in the final analysis, the success of various programs. Does a great program get to have great talent coming in? Sure. Do great programs hone, refine, and polish that talent - one would hope so. I guess that is the question being asked. Let me be clear - I see improvement over the four years at most of the good programs I am familiar with. My main comment on this is two-fold. One, it is indeed rare that a complete triple threat student comes along that cannot improve in one or more areas - most folks, even professionals, can benefit from getting new perspectives on things. Two, there is so much more to a college experience than simple mechanics of instruction in singing, dancing, and acting. There is a maturing that occur in a supportive environment that generally contributes to a more fully functional human being who can then contribute to the general good in a positive manner. Not all lessons learned at college are in the classroom.
That was my main point, but while typing I thought of another angle - in high school, if you are outstanding you likely are either alone or in a very small group of outstanding talents. In a good college program, you are surrounded by great talent. This does two things - it gives you an understanding of how to interact among similarly talented peers and gives you a sense of humility (preparing you for life in the big leagues). Also, competing (hopefully in a healthy way) with great talent forces you to improve beyond what you might previously thought was possible.</p>

4

<p>Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I realize this is a touchy subject (having broached the dreaded YouTube topic earlier), and I also know there’s not a simple answer, but it is on my mind… and maybe especially now that we’re weeks away from writing that first whopping tuition check. ;-)</p>

<p>First let me say that I agree that there is maturation and value that comes with a 4-year college degree that is hard to match in other ways. In this sense I’m happy that our D chose a very strong academic environment, as I think her degree will have value independent of whatever skills-improvement she sees during those years.</p>

<p>I’ve never quite adhered to the idea that one can judge the quality of an MT education by the caliber of students a program turns out, as I’ve seen the extreme cherry-picking involved in creating incoming classes. If most of these programs DIDN’T turn out amazing students I’d have to think they were actually harming the incoming talent ;-D</p>

<p>I totally agree that a group of talented peers can cause performers to step up their own skills. I think many of the kids who get into top programs – especially those from urban areas – have already surrounded themselves with extraordinary talent before getting to college, either through performing arts high schools, regional theatre or professional theatre involvement. I admit I’ve wondered if D will find the same level of talent at school, but I guess she’ll know soon enough.</p>

<p>I know a couple MT boys who discovered opera while in college, and another who has re-directed toward theatre administration, and that may be life-changing for them. As far as basic skills, though, I have yet to see a kid who experienced a $250,000 transformation to their skills during the college years. But as others have said, maybe that was never the goal.</p>

5

<p>I will add another controversial dimension. I’ve had a few people tell me “Don’t waste time/money on college now. Youth is so fleeting and youth is what the business wants. The kids that have REAL talent should just start auditioning out of high school.” Others say nooooo, casting directors want them in school!" It is true very few “make it” and in the end most college educations are put to good use, but there is confusing/conflicting advice everywhere!</p>

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<p>@Calliene – Yet for girls there’s some very different advice that I’ve heard. Some say that girls from 18-22 – particularly singers – are rarely competitive professionally because they’ll always be competing with very experienced 35-year-olds who can play young. I’ve heard it’s best for female singers to sit out those years so they might as well earn a degree until they age into more competitiveness. I’m guessing this is very different for dancers, where youth is at a premium.</p>

<p>Confusing and conflicting advice abounds, so I suppose everyone must find their own way.</p>

7

<p>Nephew is a MT major - I’d say while he stood out as talented in HS, he’s an even more amazing performer now that he’s entering his senior year of college. Has had roles in 3 operas, which was new in college, and while he had taken some dance and has always been able to move, he’s a better dancer and learns much more quickly. </p>

<p>Of course I’m not biased at all.</p>

<p>He entered college with another HS friend (female). He had leads all the way through HS, while his friend did not. It’s been the same way in college. Of course, it’s more competitive for the girls, but she’s never gotten out of the chorus. Evidently she has strong organizational skills and is a good director, which is something she’s learned there.</p>

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<p>@college_query – I like your reminder that many kids discover new talents and passions during their college years. Those 4 years do provide a unique opportunity to explore… though I’ve heard that some MT programs have such a tightly-prescribed curriculum that there’s little chance for that. I know in D’s regular life as an MT kid she rarely has time to breathe, let alone to explore alternate interests (right now she’s in rehearsal for 3 separate productions… each starting rehearsal just as the prior show goes into performance). </p>

<p>I’m also excited to hear how much growth you’ve seen in your nephew! I would think that some males might experience more growth in an MT program, as they might be less apt to have started in choirs and with dance in kindergarten, as so many female performers did. I know one of my best friends (male) started dancing in our senior year of high school and has grown into one of the country’s best-known tap dancers. </p>

<p>D has plenty of room for growth as a performer, and I think having a whole new group of instructors will expose her to lots of new ideas. I’m excited to see what she learns, but guess I’m not expecting an earth-shaking transformation in performance skills for her or any of her talented peers. </p>

<p>And I know I should stop calculating how many voice, dance and acting classes one could take for the price of tuition. ;-D</p>

9

<p>I guess this plays into the big question I have: is it worth it for me to go to college for MT, or is it better to just take classes and lessons and try to get into shows on a local, community level? I’ve discovered my love for MT a bit late. Right now I’m an advertising major, and my parents think that a theater or MT major is pretty much the most useless major you can get into - of course, I don’t agree with them. I want to do a grad program or CAP21, but would my money be just as well spent getting training on my own, outside of college or certification programs?</p>

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<p>@momcares: I think its a really important question to ask, “Am I really going to get my money’s worth out of this program?” To me, this is a key point that needs to be addressed in assessing which programs “fit” an applicant. I think performing arts are especially maddening because of all the nuances involved in artistic improvement. If you are going to spend enough money to buy a decent starter house, then you better really get something out of it. Of course you MIGHT get scholarships that can lower the cost, but its highly probable that you can still end up with more than a $50,000-100,000 difference between a highly-ranked OOS school and an in-state, public school alternative.</p>

<p>We are trying hard to make sure our d doesn’t fall in love with rankings and reputations without understanding the costs involved. She got a lot out of reading “Til the Fat Girl Sings” and even asked me the other day, “why would someone spend $200,000 on Carnegie Mellon when they could go to a cheaper school that is still pretty good and use the money they saved on an apartment in New York - because, let’s face it, you still need a place to live in New York when you are starting out and I don’t want to live in a dump!” She followed this up with, “if I am going to pay $200,000 they better have BOTH Idina Menzel and Kristen Chenoweth on staff” which totally cracked me up.</p>

<p>Caveat Emptor.</p>

11

<p>caramello12,
There are a few very good acting studios in NYC independent of universities and some have summer programs. You can stay at area university dorms for the summer. That way you can get a feel for being in theatre. You can take dance at several local studios and private voice, or do an all inclusive summer program like CAP 21 of Circle in the Square. I would avoid transferring if possible. It has proven to be very expensive for us
and required an extra year of undergraduate school.</p>

12

<p>It is sobering to realize that we are paying essentially the same amt per year for our kids to study MT (and still work at Starbucks or wait tables for years after college) as we would be paying for our kids to study something useful, that pays well like accounting, nursing or finance. But, for me, it’s the actual college experience that counts - learning to think critically, be independent, make important decisions, read books that you never would on your own, etc. However, we have made it clear to our D that she’s on her own financially as soon as she graduates including graduate school, whether it ends up being mime and physical theatre (as is her plan right now) or business.</p>

<p>Quite frankly, I think she and we, her parents, have a pretty good assesment of her talent and skills, and while she is well trained, hard working and charming in certain roles, no one is holding their breath for Broadway. We’re investing in this for our D’s personal development, not to make her a star. If she makes a living as a performer, great! If not, there is a wide world of possibilities out there for a kid with a college degree from a well respected university.</p>

13

<p>@megpmom said – “We’re investing in this for our D’s personal development, not to make her a star. If she makes a living as a performer, great! If not, there is a wide world of possibilities out there for a kid with a college degree from a well respected university.”</p>

<p>Well put, and exactly the conclusion DH and I reached last fall when we had to make our final commitment (since D applied binding ED). She will (hopefully) graduate with two majors in 4 years, which will also add value, plus her little brother will overlap 2 years with her in college so we’ll be (again hopefully) splitting the same tuition costs between two kids for her final 2 years. Like you, we’ve also said after UG degree she’s on her own financially.</p>

<p>We actually offered to our D that we’d buy her a condo in NYC with the money we’ll otherwise spend on her college, but she (probably wisely) said no, she wants the degree.</p>

<p>We thought through all of this last summer/fall, but somehow I’m having to re-think it as the rubber is about to meet the road (i.e. the pen is about to meet the checkbook). ;-D</p>

<p>I’d still love to hear what SPECIFIC performance improvements people have noticed after 4 years in a BFA or performance-BA program.</p>

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<p>@thecheckbook I wasn’t planning on transferring. I was just talking about finishing my advertising degree then doing a 2-year program like CAP21 or a grad program after that.</p>

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<p>@MomCares - our son was a well-rounded performer before college with vocals his strength. He chose a BFA program with a reputation of strength in vocals, acting and dance. In fact, some students can receive a mt bfa with a minor in dance. I think he’d say he grew in all areas but especially acting and dance. He graduated a year ago and has found consistent success throughout this last year and will begin his 4th paying job in August. His callbacks in NY have shown his growth in dance, but I believe he’d admit he has more to learn there. The most pleasant surprise was that his first very fulfilling and professional role was Shakespeare, not MT at all. So, it appears so far his training has mattered. It was within a college setting, structured, challenging, and well paced. I’ll also add that he was the first among all of his high school friends to land a paying job - and as an actor. Go figure! His classmates have also found consistent success since graduation, but I didn’t know any of them prior to college, so I can’t gauge their development. I’m sure it’s tough consideration when it’s time to write the check, but we’re now going through it with our third child. They are all pursuing theatre within their educations, plan on graduating within 4 tuition paid years, and will go to work. Hopefully, that work will involve theatre for all of them, but they’re prepared for anything. Wish you well.</p>

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<p>What to say here - such an interesting subject. The subject of cost and benefit (or risk and benefit) cannot be over looked. My husband and I have what I would consider a fair amount of money to put towards our daughter’s education. By no means are we rich - but a combination of inheritance and savings will get us by. Having said all that - I really thought that scholarships (academic and/or talent) would really make a difference and allow us to send our daughter somewhere “amazing”. In the end - our (low) 6 figure savings would still have amounted to close to 75,00 - 100,000 of debt for some of the more expensive places she was accepted to. Fortunately - we found a school that has a tuition exchange with our state that has excellent training. Any money left over will be used to start a life for her in NYC (her plan) - auditioning and working (at any paying job…) with no college debt. Additionally - we keep our 401 K’s intact so she doesn’t have to care for us when we get old!!! She’s on board with the program and sees the benefit of getting a quality education without incurring a huge amount of debt. In 4 years will we wish we had pursued another more expensive route? Time will only tell - but I doubt it.</p>

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<p>@abparent – Ok, hearing that you’re on your third child pursuing a degree involving theatre makes me feel like a total whiner!! I also love hearing about your son who is finding straight acting work as a result of his training. D looked for, and ultimately chose, a program noted for strong acting training (her strength is singing) in part because she’s been told there’s more work for straight actors than MTs. I’m not aware of any females in our regional market doing both, so I’m not sure how common/possible that is but I liked that D was seeking a program that would fill gaps rather than one that would play to her strengths.</p>

<p>@alibabba808 – We’re with you on avoiding debt and keeping 401ks intact. I’d think the last thing a new MT graduate needs is school debt and parents who need financial help. ;-D</p>

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<p>I like the question asked in this thread and I hope others will respond because I have often wondered about the cost vs. benefit. Two years ago I gave it a lot of thought hence the checkbook moniker. My d will graduate a year late because she transferred from a BA in VP to a BFA in MT. In spite of all of her musical background her greatest growth has been in singing and piano, two areas where she arrived at her BFA with a lot of prior training and strength. Dance has been slow and steady. I don’t expect her to graduate beyond intermediate level. Acting was slow and steady and hit and miss until she became excited about a method of acting that spoke to her. She is spending the summer taking acting training in that method in NYC this summer. She expects her training to click better at school next year. You have to understand that she came to MT with a high level of musical training and musicality but little dance experience. She had several good roles in HS but as it is for most HS theatre sudents, the training isn’t in depth. So, if she came to her BFA with a strong music background you might wonder in what way did she progress? Her song delivery and acting the song and phrasing. She is no longer pigeon holed into a few genres. Her teachers have opened her up to big band music, torch songs and other jazz and blues styles. She has made me aware of how many singing styles there are in Broadway musicals.
Could she have learned as much apart from her university? Given enough time perhaps, but I don’t think so. My d has had many music teachers in her life and while they aided her, they never struck the fear/respect in her the way her professors do.
Some of the reasons I now support her in her quest are:
She is ADHD, sitting is very difficult for her, she loves and needs to move. I can’t imagine her at a desk.<br>
She will graduate with no debt. I can’t imagine an actor with debt.
Her looks, I don’t like it but lets face it, sex appeal sells.
She is willing to live in poverty or so she says.</p>

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<p>@thecheckbook – thanks so much for the specifics on how your D improved due to her college training! I’m glad to hear that her professors had the ability to “strike fear/respect” in her in a way that other music teachers hadn’t. I think that getting away from the comfort of familiar and extremely supportive music teachers will have value to our D as well. </p>

<p>I so understand not clicking with some acting training. Unfortunately the song “Nothing” in Chorus Line was popular for a reason. Since D staked a lot on the reputation of the acting training in her chosen school I’m curious to see if the training she finds there will resonate with her. In my experience, when you don’t connect with acting training it can seem monumentally stupid. ;-D</p>

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<p>If we were talking about a typical college undergrad program and not MT, would the analysis of cost vs benefit be any different? Is there an inherent prejudice towards performing arts as a major, particularly theatre, even among us parents of MT kids, that results in a skewed analysis? Granted, in a MT program there is an expectation of the development of certain additional proficiencies that will prepare a student for performing as a career, but if that’s what it’s all about, then there are many studio based programs that offer the same levels of training and which cost much less than a program housed in a degree conferring college or university. Attendance at a college or university MT program, even a BFA as opposed to a BA, is about more than just the studio training.</p>

<p>And therein lies the rub for me about this kind of analysis and where I think the prejudice resides. Part of the value for the cost is the college education, experience and degree. But a degree in theatre, especially in performance based theatre, still has a stigma attached to it whether conscious or subliminal. It is somehow not quite as “legitimate” as an undergrad degree in in a traditional major. But that, of course, is bunk. A BFA or BA in theatre has all of the same value to it as an undergrad degree in psych, English, history and a universe of other liberal arts majors. No one expects a student to emerge from college with an undergrad degree in all these other majors prepared to enter the work force as professionals and the expectation is that there will be several more years of education, training or experience before a student is an accomplished professional in his or her field. Why should it be any different for theatre majors? It shouldn’t and the reality is that it isn’t. But because a degree in theatre is viewed differently than a degree in another field, suddenly the expectations and analysis are different. For a program to have value, a graduate should be prepared to step on a Broadway stage - which is of course just as unrealistic as expecting an undergrad with a degree in psychology to be prepared to to set up a clinical practice. And if you are going to look at the price tag, for me the analysis is no different. Whether it is of “value” to attend a school where you emerge with no debt or one where you have $200,000 worth of loans involves an analysis that has nothing to do with your major. And in my view, regardless of your major, emerging from college with $200,000 worth of debt from which you start out your life is nuts no matter what school you attended.</p>

<p>My daughter graduated in May with a BFA from a small private university. Between a load of scholarships and what we had saved for 18 years, she walked out with no debt. Did she graduate a much more developed and accomplished performer than when she started, absolutely but we would have expected the same thing if she had attended our local state university with a very strong and well regarded theatre program for half the cost. What provided the “value” for the higher cost was her school was a much better fit and provided the type of college experience she wanted, not whether the cost of the college had “value” measured against her selected major. If we couldn’t have done it without incurring a load of debt, she would have gone to our local state university. The “value” based decision would have been driven by our means and not measured by the cost vs her selected major.</p>

<p>But to answer the OP’s original question, my daughter entered college as a legit soprano. She exited with a range from alto to soprano who can sing legit and belt well. Her acting has improved immensely and she gets cast in non-musicals as much as musicals. She walked in with multiple years of dance and walked about a much better dancer. Her stage presence is much more polished and her knowledge and understanding of theatre, its history and dramatic literature is far greater than it ever was. She has the tools to analyze characters and scenes that she did not have before. She received training and development in skills that make her competitive. So yes, she got what she was looking for in her major but at the same time received the varied benefits of a college education.</p>