<p>I am very aware of my d’s intellectual growth and development particularly these last two years. I didn’t expect that in a BFA program. Since she transferred in with her academic requirements behind her I figured from there on out her development would be in singing, dancing and acting. I underestimated the acting assignments, the analysis, the reading, the required writing, the hours and all the other demands that would pull resources out of her, broaden her view of the world. Then there are career skills, thrown at her every day from other students and professors, presentational advice, coping skills and practical information that will help her transition into theatre that she has learned.
There is one other thing, my d was not mature enough to enter the job market after high school and she wasn’t mature enough to be outside of a university setting right out of high school. I felt good knowing campus security was around. I required her to live in a dorm for three years and I slept better for it.</p>
<p>@MichaelNKat – … daughter entered college as a legit soprano. She exited with a range from alto to soprano who can sing legit and belt well. Her acting has improved immensely and she gets cast in non-musicals as much as musicals. She walked in with multiple years of dance and walked about a much better dancer. Her stage presence is much more polished and her knowledge and understanding of theatre… </p>
<p>It sounds like she received some excellent training, and once again I’m excited to hear she’s being cast in straight theatre as well as MT!</p>
<p>I admit to some bias in comparing the relative value of various degrees as I have UG degrees in both theatre and engineering and, although I found work immediately in both fields, at least in my day it was MUCH easier to reach break even for the engineering degree. ;-D I do know there is more to “value” than the financial aspects, though.</p>
<p>@thecheckbook – I also agree that there’s value in the campus environment for general intellectual growth and maturation. In that sense I’m very glad that D will be a good distance from home and that she’ll be in a traditional campus setting.</p>
<p>My concern is not just about MT or acting - I think any degree that will put a student into significant debt has to be considered in a cost benefit scenario. If I were on an English or Math thread on CC - it would be no different with regards to concern about college debt. All that being said and as a past struggling artist myself - and still having friends who are in the struggle - let’s look at the reality of a graduating “artist” (actor, singer, visual). The great dilemma - student loans aside - is pursuing the passion while still making ends meet. I know a lot of artists who work at a day job to pay the bills and take the time left over to try to do what they love. This is a scenario somewhat reserved for artists as opposed to other degrees . The difference for theater majors is their love and passion for performing, and their desire to do this post graduation. This is what makes MT a little different after graduation. The benefits of a college education are boundless - and in no way in question here. My issue here is more the “means” of being able to afford an education - any education in any major - with an extra special emphasis on performing arts since that is what this thread is about.</p>
<p>This has been an interesting topic for me, as we’ve all tried to guide and support our kids as they work toward finding that right next path…and some of it comes with big dollar signs and future financial ramifications…</p>
<p>But as I’ve been watching my family and friends’ kids take their own paths, I’ve come to a place in my head where I figure there are no guarantees for anyone – my nephew, who has a degree in elementary education and is bilingual, could not land a teaching job for 3 years…even willing to work in an inner-city school. He lives at home w/his dad, working to pay off loans. A nephew w/a master’s in electrical engineering is now in the “junk” business, as he could not find work in his field over a 5+ year search, another nephew was laid off from Motorola, and has been on a multi-year job search, while his wife with a Master’s is working at a bookstore, friend’s son (with a wife and 3 small kids) just landed a job in a law firm…all digging out from mountains of student loans… So sadly, even a “practical passion” such as teaching or engineering doesn’t guarantee that a graduate will have lots of options. All these young adults are also bound by the loan repayment terms, and have found their adult realities to be different than perhaps they thought upon entering college. Bad? Not necessarily. Different. Yup.</p>
<p>I say let them dream big (teacher, performer, whatever it is) and be prepared to be flexible in expectations. I am hoping that the other skills my kid will continue to hone as a performing arts major – the ability to handle herself with new people, to advocate for herself, to be a quick study, creative problem-solving, on and on, will serve her well, whether she steps on Broadway at age 21 (right…) or if this summer is is first…and last…summer as a paid performer.</p>
<p>@alibabba808 and @mommafrog – you both make excellent points!</p>
<p>Isn’t it ironic that if our kids were as passionate about competitive sports (probably a field that ultimately produces a similar number of working professionals) as they are about MT, colleges would have been in bidding wars over them AND would have thrown lots of extra resources at making sure they completed a marketable degree while in school?</p>
<p>Life isn’t fair. ;-D</p>
<p>^Interesting world, huh!? And anymore, I’m not so sure ANY degree is a “marketable degree”…but let’s hold on and see where the world is in 4 years – and at least, in live shows, it’s awfully hard to replace that life performer with a computer/robot! ;-)</p>
<p>…it’s awfully hard to replace that live performer with a computer/robot! ;-)</p>
<p>But OTOH isn’t that what movies are all about! ;-D You’re right, though, that there is really nothing like a live performance.</p>
<p>There seems to be 3 different issues running through this discussion. The first is the value of a degree in MT compared to other majors, particularly given the challenges of obtaining employment in theatre post graduation. The second issue is the cost of the degree vs the “value” of the degree. And finally, the 3rd is whether the training of the degree program met expectations in terms of the development and growth of the student as a performer.</p>
<p>As to the first, there is no question that obtaining employment in theatre post grad can be and often is a very tough nut to crack. But if you think about it, with all but a very few undergrad majors, the same can be said. The vast majority of students graduating with some type of liberal arts undergrad degree don’t obtain employment in the field of their major and those that do typically find that it is a job that does not pay enough to really support themselves independently. Students with undergrad degrees typically go to grad school and if they obtain employment while doing so, it’s to assist in covering costs, not to provide a full time viable living. Are there exceptions, sure, but I think my observation are fair. What makes it different for MT/acting majors, however, is the expectation that the degree prepares the student for competing in the work place in their chosen field and that in most cases, post grad the student will be doing just that and trying to support themselves, not going to grad school and working as an adjunct to continuing as a full time student. At the end of the day, the MT/acting major has been educated and trained to seek employment in theatre and does just that. So in comparing the “value” of a theatre degree to some other major, there is a natural predisposition to develop some degree of angst since our kids immediately go out into their work world in a very tough field. But that doesn’t make the degree any less valuable. An MT/acting student could always elect to go to grad school in another field. It’s really what our kids choose to do with their degrees - immediately seek employment in their chosen major - that differentiates them from most other undergrads. And if you have a good game plan in place for that, it is no more precarious than a student with some other undergrad degree deciding to take time off before going back to school. Emotionally, it’s more risky for us and our kids because of how tough it is to “make it” in theatre, but in practical terms it’s no more risky than any other kid who enters the work force with an undergrad degree. Our kids are equally advantaged or disadvantaged in the “mainstream” work world as any other college graduate. The real challenge is how to find employment that provides a viable (or semi viable with parental assist) living that enables you to pursue theatre as a career, but that’s another discussion.</p>
<p>As to the cost of the degree vs the value of the degree, simply put, a BFA in performing is just as real, just as legitimate and credible, just as much an educational experience of substance, as any other college major. The question for me is how much I would pay for any undergraduate education. If the cost of the education will result in a student graduating with crushing student loans, then the cost isn’t worth it regardless of the school (or major). If loans are not an issue, then it becomes one of whether school x is such a better fit, will provide such a more gratifying and fulfilling educational experience than school y that it is worth the difference in price to you.</p>
<p>As to the last issue, that’s really a question of whether the schools to which a student is accepted are the right fit for the student’s needs and desires. Lots of discussion about fit has occurred on other threads. If you choose the schools on your list with the right research and investigation, all of them should be schools where the curriculum, pedagogy and quality of training are a good match for a student and will provide the expected growth and development as a performer.</p>
<p>Throughout my daughter’s college process starting in high school, what was always most important to me was that she choose a major and schools to which she would commit with passion and energy and in which she would be fully invested and engaged. For her, MT was it and I watched grow and develop as a person and as a performer throughout her college years. Now that she has graduated, she is pursuing her goals to be a successful working performer with the same passion and commitment. She is working hard at living independently as she pursues her dreams. That to me is all that matters at this point in her life. When she says to me that she is living exactly the life she wanted to be living and that she dreamt about living at this point in time, that to me is all the “value” I need to justify the money spent on her MT BFA.</p>
<p>My d is living in a dorm this summer with no air conditioning (NYC). It saved a hundred dollars a week over eight weeks. She called last week whining. I told her to get used to it and drink lots of water. She chose a profession that will be tough and wants to live in a very expensive city. I want her to know what’s ahead. Even with no college debt it will be tough. If I didn’t see a lot of work, natural talent and progress I would not have let her get this far. This is all a great leap of faith for me and my husband.
It’s not a prejudice against theatre. I would feel the same way about journalism or English. If I was given a choice at her conception, perhaps I would have selected a talent for engineering instead of MT. But what do I know, I’m just a mom and when I watch her in a play or on You Tube, I’m reassurred and I get this feeling that everythings going to work out just fine.</p>
<p>For what it’s worth, I suspect it’s also a giant leap of faith for our kids! They surely know that we (at least some of us) worry about them facing such difficult odds in finding steady and/or adequately lucrative employment. It must take great courage and commitment for them to choose this path in spite of our concern.</p>
<p>I must admit that sometimes I get a vivid image of a devoted parent gazing proudly at their painfully out-of-tune child as they compete on American Idol. 
It seems like a good sign when they are consistently getting cast and audiences are paying real money to see them perform, but I realize as a parent I will never be truly objective. Maybe given this it’s also unrealistic to think that I’ll be any judge of what progress D does/doesn’t make in her college years.</p>
<p>It truly is a leap of faith, which I suppose is what we all take for those we love.</p>
<p>100% correct…hence my name…these kids should be applauded for their passion and courage to do something they love with no “safety net” </p>
<p>Im putting this in every thread b/c i need feedback…my s was just offered a spot in BFA/MT program at Montclair State Univ in NJ…THIS YEAR…saving a whole year (transfer) and auditions…what would you do??</p>
<p>I sent a private message (PM)</p>
<p>Here is a new article supporting the value of the types of skills our MT kids are learning in college…</p>
<p>[Survey</a> On Millennial Hiring Highlights Power Of Liberal Arts - Daily Brief - Portfolio.com](<a href=“http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs/daily-brief/2012/05/14/survey-on-millennial-hiring-highlights-power-of-liberal-arts]Survey”>http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs/daily-brief/2012/05/14/survey-on-millennial-hiring-highlights-power-of-liberal-arts)</p>
<p>Glad you bumped this thread…</p>
<p>The original question was do you see a noticable difference in your student with their MT training vs when they began out of h/s. (then we got off into some cost v. benefit stuff that was interesting, too). </p>
<p>I do have some good measurements: </p>
<p>My son has gained so much in his vocal range! He has gone from being a h/s bass to a wonderful baritone to having a range that now to includes baritenor/tenor in just under two years. This will improve his marketability so much! So many more parts are open to him. All to do with superior vocal training and instructors who also readily “diagnosed” allergy and acid reflux symptoms that needed to be dealt with.</p>
<p>His dance skills out of high school included only “show choir” type dance…he was a leader in this type of dance…a good mover who could pick up steps quickly but no formal training. Now his skill set includes ballet and tap, and he has been able to “audit” several extra dance classes at no extra cost to us. Noticable improvement here, and now he can “speak the language” which is key to even be considered at an audition.</p>
<p>No piano lessons before college, although guitar training allowed him to pick out a few chords. Required piano classes have provided enough skill to aid him in learning and practicing vocally, and likes it so much he is interested in taking “real” lessons over the summer and beyond (as he eventually would like to teach/direct and will need that skill.)</p>
<p>He was always a good actor, but was a little pigeon-holed in h/s. There was another boy there who always ended up with the romantic lead while Nick was the “character”. Great experiences have become available to let him round out that training as well. He has improved immensely by just living life and maturing, but by getting an overall well-rounded education as well. An educated man will almost surely be a better actor.</p>
<p>Could he have paid to train on all of that individually…yes, but at what cost? When would he have time if he needed to support himself at the same time. What parts would he have to take to survive? </p>
<p>Great contacts are being made at many schools, too. That is one of those “intangibles”, because as you said, many will graduate fine-tuned but with the same basics that they went into training with, but being in the right place at the right time can make all the difference in the world.</p>
<p>A weird example comes to mind…does anyone remember Guy Fieri from the original “food network star” show? He was basically the same as he is now (same strengths, same weaknesses) but being in the right place at the right time made him a star…and now he is so polished and confident. But could he have done all of that without the training he started with however humble of a difference people saw from high school? I think alot of that “next level” that you are hoping to see comes with a bit of commercial success and next level training. MT training gets them ready to greet the opportunity.</p>
<p>boy do i feel lucky…cause unlike some of these kids you’ve seen, i’ve grown an immense amount in my first two years of school. but maybe that’s because i started mt late in the game–as a sophomore in hs…so i had a lot of underdeveloped potential that my program has enabled me to really unlock. also i’m at a straight acting program and i’ve had to strike out on my own to develop musically, but because i’m creating my own musical curriculum in a sense, i’ve seen a huge transformation because i’ve created a syllabus that works for me and me only. don’t ask about dance though…haha. the movement training i’ve gotten here is amazing and i have found my own creative voice in physical movement, but my dance skills have not really improved…i have learned how to move without having to be taught some dance choreography…growing up fairly shy, i always had a problem with being able to move freely despite all the dance and figure skating i did for most of my childhood and teen years. so i’ve benefitted a lot and am a much better dancer in that aspect, but my technique has not improved…i’m not worried, i just need to get my butt to a dance studio more often and i don’t really have my eye set on doing dance musicals in the future…my goal is to be an actor/singer anyway. i have a bigger desire to be doing shakespeare than the majority of the musicals out there anyway.</p>
<p>but yes, i’ve grown a LOT. like a s***-ton. i have a lot of more room to grow, but the performer i’ve become in this last semester alone is nothing like the one i was 2 years ago before i started at my program. looking back, i even cringe at the times when i got off-stage and felt i had done well cause honestly it probably was quite appalling. my range has increased…i’ve started exploring my whistle register finally. my belt and mix are ten times better than before. i can riff now. you can hear-the overall quality of my voice is much better. and my acting, well, it’s actually acting now (usually)…not self-indulgent emoting common of most hs students.</p>
<p>but most importantly, i’ve grown as an individual. i’m more confident and sure of myself even though i’ve learned more and more that i’ll probably always feel bit uncertain about different parts of myself…but it shows onstage. i own my presence and am so much more grounded and connected to all my work.</p>
<p>It’s great to hear from folks who have seen really significant growth in performance skills in even two years of college! As was mentioned in the post above it makes sense that the most extreme changes may happen for folks who came to MT later or didn’t have the benefit of the amazing training that many high school kids now arrive at college auditions with.</p>
<p>For example, I had a friend from high school (i.e. long long ago) who went from never having put on tap shoes to one of the prominent male tappers in the country by the end of college, so I know it happens.</p>
<p>Assuming someone enters college with very strong vocal training, do women’s voices typically mature much from age 18 to age 22? If so, how does that maturation usually manifest – more range, richer tone or…? Is the expected vocal maturation time different for guys?</p>
<p>I spent the weekend at CCU watching my now college junior D perform in “On The Verge.” She is an MT major, but CCU does a lot of cross casting so this year she was cast in the fall musical and also in “On The Verge.” My D went to college with good training and some excellent community and regional credits. She attended a small charter school without a theatre program, so to be cast, she had to get out and work in the community/regional world. She was cast in musicals and plays here, and did some tv and film work, and has always considered herself an actor first and foremost. One of the reasons she chose CCU was because of the acting training. I can tell you that the growth in her as a performer and as a person over the almost 3 years at CCU has been incredible! I’m including her background because she didn’t come late to training or performing. And still, she has grown leaps and bounds. One of her fellow juniors, an Acting major, was in the show with her, along with 2 seniors. I remember watching my D and her friend at freshman showcase. Seeing them on stage this weekend really gave me a chance to appreciate the wonderful training and opportunities they have received.</p>
<p>I see a lot of folks on this board whose kids have either gone to a performing arts HS or have done local/regional theater for years. My D isn’t one of those. She has gone to public schools, and attended a very big public HS (over 4700 kids) where there is a lot of competition for roles in theater, musicals, etc. She also has done Summer Stock where there are kids from various area high schools competing for roles. She has gotten several leads in straight theater, has been ensemble and/or small parts thus far in musicals. And despite not being the star throughout HS she has landed a spot in a music theater program at one of her top rated schools for next year. And I don’t think she would have traded her HS experiences, the friends she’s made, performances, show choir competitions, football games, proms, etc, etc for anything.</p>
<p>I of course have no way of knowing what she’ll look like as a performer in 4 years, but I am confident she will grow significantly, in that she will receive a lot more dance than she’s had, and will be immersed in theater and music studies (no more AP calculus, no more economics!!) much more than she has in HS. And if she doesn’t become a Broadway star, I am absolutely confident she will leave with a 4 year degree that will be marketable in whatever she chooses to do after college. </p>
<p>I feel the same for all the students represented on this board, even though I haven’t met them. It seems obvious through the comments here that we have great kids that are dedicated and willing to work hard to achieve their goals. What more can a parent ask at this point in their lives?</p>
<p>My daughter is a sophomore at SU (straight acting but also takes voice and dance) and has been cast in shows since her first semester. She has had a nice range of roles, including leads, understudies and ensemble. She told us recently that she never realized how much she DID NOT know until she went off to college…and she has a ton of theatre in high school, both school and community. Her growth has been wonderful to watch for us.</p>
<p>Photomom-- SU? Syracuse University or Shenandoah University? My S is interested in both schools…just wondering.</p>