<p>I am sorry! She is a sophomore at Shenandoah University…and loves loves loves it.</p>
<p>I will answer the OP’s question in three weeks…my son is cast in the EXACT same roll at Ball State that he performed in 8th grade. I know you are rolling your eyes…but what better way to tell if he is transformed, fine-tuned, or hardly changed. (hint: he has been transformed…by a great program)</p>
<p>I can’t believe the growth in my own kids after 18 months in a very intense MT program. After the first semester, we could hardly believe the change in her voice…I would attribute the growth to daily training in her chosen field. She has 3 dance classes a day along with an hour long voice lesson, an MT private coaching session and 4.5 hours per day of acting/voice and speech/etc…i think it would be nearly impossible to not grow in that setting. On top of that there is scene work and being cast in shows…and the list goes on. I just got to see her in her first big role in college…this very biased mother was very proud of her work. But honestly the thing that impressed me the most was the unbelievable talents of the seniors! It gave me a little peek into where she is going…where the training i have already seen some results of, is taking her! it was really an encouraging thing to see!</p>
<p>myrbroadwaybaby-you may be biased but I am betting you were sitting in an audience filled with may parents like you. And by that, I mean parents who believe in the talent and passion of their kids enough to encourage this crazy life. Watching them flourish and grow is such an amazing experience. Makes the whole college audition process worth all the anxiety…</p>
<p>I appreciate this thread as I am going through this a second time.</p>
<p>I’m particularly enjoying watching for changes in kids other than my own, since I decided long ago that I am FAR too biased about my own children to be any judge of their abilities and certainly try to stay too close to them to notice gradual changes. 
In addition to that, our D has been cast wildly out-of-type since she’s been in college (she’s been rather consistently cast as a slutty dancer and I can confidently say she is neither) so that has been interesting.</p>
<p>I have been impressed by older performers at D’s school, so I take that as a good sign, although I didn’t see most of them when they were younger and so can’t honestly speak to their college progress.</p>
<p>I know our D has learned SO much during her first two years of college, much of it utterly unrelated to MT, but I don’t feel qualified to judge how/if she’s growing as a performer. All I know is that we are all very happy that she chose the program she did, and I guess in the end that’s what most matters.</p>
<p>I’ve seen so much growth in my S with very limited training at a non-arts high school and a few community theatre roles. I have to believe that four years of non-stop acting, singing and dancing will not only improve his skills, but grant him resilience, organization, focus and the ability to work hard no matter what field he ultimately lands in.</p>
<p>Something that’s become obvious to me over the past few years of closely watching kids coming out of various MT programs is that the impact of the same training on different performers is highly variable. </p>
<p>As a simplified example, an incredibly well-trained dancer who enters a program offering moderate dance training may see less growth than a kid with no prior dance training who goes through that same program. And regardless of prior skill level, some performers are more receptive to certain forms of training than are others.</p>
<p>I must say that in the past couple years I’ve seen some kids come out of “top” programs with added technical skills, confidence and polish, but having lost the honesty and vulnerability that had previously made them so engaging on stage. I find this really sad but have no idea why it happens – maybe something about the quality of acting training?</p>
<p>I agree with MomCares. I think it really depends on what the student brings into the program, plus what he/she wants to get out of the program. The biggest improvements I’ve seen are in dancing, followed by singing. Although I have seen a few singers who haven’t changed at all except in terms of apparent confidence–this includes, strangely, a student who always sang off pitch (randomly flat or sharp). He was never corrected, and graduated still singing badly off pitch. This was a reputable program, and I found that extremely puzzling. However, mostly I’ve seen minor to major voice improvement.</p>
<p>It’s acting that I’ve been surprised by most. I don’t really understand why, but I’ve seen several students graduate from reputable BFA programs with the exact same immature acting skills they had to start, only more cemented (mostly: overacting, mannered, cliched gestures, not inhabiting character). I think this is the same thing MomCares is talking about. I don’t know why this would be so.</p>
<p>My D is only a Freshman so I’m excited and nervous to see how she improves over the years!</p>
<p>Acting was first on my daughter’s list when investigating schools and she turned up her nose at a couple of pretty decently regarded programs after checking out the acting component. But we’ve talked about this quite a bit after seeing a couple of people come back and on the surface at least not seem dramatically different. Yes, non-dancers are now dancing but are they Broadway dance call dancing? I don’t know. Of course, it depends on where they are in terms of development going in where they will be coming out. Now, in my own child I see huge growth in depth and emotional content. (She’s not just getting up and going, “Watch me belt”, anymore). But would others notice a change? I don’t know and it’s still really early. Here’s hoping. </p>
<p>Also, there’s a period of time where what they did so easily at 13 years old becomes very complicated once they learn how much they didn’t know. This is much harder than it looks to really do well.</p>
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<p>This is exactly what I’ve seen in the folks I’m thinking of but at least two of them were, IMHO, much better before their college training and they came through two different highly-regarded programs. </p>
<p>Is it possible that at least some MT programs focus acting training on broadcasting emotions to the back row of huge theatres and lose something if you watch up close? I did watch these performers from the front of the house - and honestly I’ve had a similar reaction when watching Mandy Patinkin (who I love) from the front row – so maybe that was part of the problem… though reviewers had the same response I did.</p>
<p>I guess this could also be why some programs have students with a great deal of crossover success into film and others almost none?</p>
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<p>I have male friends who started dancing in high school and have gone on to great success as dancers, but don’t know of any similar stories with women. Does anyone here know girls who became Broadway-quality dancers with only college training?</p>
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<p>SO true!!</p>
<p>Great discussion though you’ve all now given me something new to worry about. Thanks! :)</p>
<p>I’d hate to think 4 years later my daughter will come out of her program with less on stage honesty than she entered with. I have no doubt she’ll be a better dancer and singer but her acting edge, gosh I’d hate for her to lose it.</p>
<p>Then again when I hear what she is working on, I think she is on track for huge growth in acting as well. They are certainly pushing her which I know she appreciates even if it can be terrifying sometimes. Similar to Flossy, she did try to pick a program that clearly emphasized acting first. It will be interesting to watch her on stage this summer so I can see first hand if anything is different. We parents tend to spot all of the regular tricks so if there is something new, we can pick it up pretty easily.</p>
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<p>@halflokum - so funny because I feel just the opposite – like I am the LEAST able to see what’s changing in my kids. 
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<p>I was just thinking about which qualities impact MT careers/casting, and which of these 4 years of training can alter. Here’s the basic list that springs to mind, but I’m not sure which of them can actually be changed, or how much.</p>
<p>Qualities that impact MT casting
Gender
Personality
Appearance – Permanent (height, leg length, ethnicity, etc.)
Appearance – Variable (hair color/length, weight, eye color, etc,)
Vocal Type/ Voice Color
Vocal Range
Belting Skills
Legit Skills
Acting Ability
Acting Versatility
General Movement Ability
Dance “Tricks” (triple pirouette, jumps, splits, etc.)
Special Skills (stage combat, mime, playing an instrument, circus, etc.)
Audition Skills
Theatre Connections
Access to $$ (potential and past donors/producers)
Resume/ Experience
Union Membership
Representation (Agents)</p>
<p>Am I forgetting anything, and which of these can be most impacted during 4 years of college?</p>
<p>Ok… I have a moment to finish that thought.</p>
<p>These are some things that impact casting, and the extent to which 4 years of college training might make noticeable changes.</p>
<p>VERY DIFFICULT TO CHANGE
Gender
Personality
Appearance – Permanent (height, leg length, ethnicity, etc.)
Industry Connections – Family
Access to $$ (donors/producers) - Family
Vocal Type/ Voice Color
Acting - Innate Ability
Natural Movement Ability (innate gracefulness)</p>
<p>CAN CHANGE SLIGHTLY
Vocal Range
Appearance – Variable (hair color/length, weight, eye color, etc,)
Movement Ability</p>
<p>MIGHT ACHIEVE NOTICEABLE CHANGES IN COLLEGE
Belting Skills
Legit Skills
Acting – Learned Versatility
Dance “Tricks” (triple pirouette, jumps, splits, etc.)
Special Skills (stage combat, mime, playing an instrument, circus, etc.)
Audition Skills
Industry Connections – Non-Family
Access to $$ (donors/producers) – Non-Family
Resume/ Experience
Union Membership
Representation (Agents)</p>
<p>I’m not sure if this is correct or complete. I feel least certain of vocal skills. How much can one change the color (not sure if this is the right term) of one’s voice? To what extent can a sense of pitch be taught? I have similar questions wrt dance and acting skills. How much can one really change these things in 4 college years?</p>
<p>Maybe when I watch kids who have graduated I am expecting to see more change than is realistic.</p>
<p>MomCares, interesting list.
One HUGE thing I want to add to your list:</p>
<p>Unless you’re a tippy-top draw, you are DEFINITELY cast based on how well you work with others, and what your reputation is. </p>
<p>Reputation spreads rapidly by word of mouth, and can easily travel across the country. For instance, Jane Doe works with John Director in Idaho one summer. Jane is an extremely hard worker, always polite to everyone, works very well with every member of the team, and is respectful and modest.</p>
<p>Next year, John Director is hired to work in Boston and the play he’s directing needs someone exactly like Jane Doe. John Director remembers how professional she is so he doesn’t have to worry about whether she will work well with others, etc etc. He invites her to audition and she lands the part. One thing then leads to another and through it all, Jane remains professional and always respectful.</p>
<p>This happens A LOT. The opposite also happens, sadly, if Jane Doe, rather than being professional and courteous and respectful, instead thinks she’s this 21 year old genius who should have gotten the lead, and tells everyone that. OR she refuses to take direction and says openly that the director has no idea what he’s talking about. Or she spreads malicious gossip about various cast members to various other cast members. OR she sleeps with everyone in the cast and causes a lot of drama. Or she shows up drunk. </p>
<p>This is ‘personality’ but a lot can be learned. It’s more 'professional work manners." Sounds obvious, but you would be surprised how some people aren’t aware how you really must be professional. It’s a JOB. What’s more, it’s a highly collaborative job that really depends on the ability to work well with others on all levels. </p>
<p>The good thing is that this can easily be learned. </p>
<p>PS. Pitch can be taught by a good teacher, unless you’re absolutely tone deaf.</p>
<p>Excellent point connections!</p>
<p>@connections - SO GLAD you added this as it is so very true! It has also been my experience that, as in most professions, word-of-mouth quickly becomes the main way people get work rather than through 2 minute auditions.</p>
<p>One thing I’ve encountered, both in my past theatre career and with D in school, is the dirty underbelly of this, and that’s the people who attempt to maliciously undermine someone’s reputation by spreading false rumors. In the long run that seems to come back and bite them, but in the short term it can be quite destructive. </p>
<p>While reputation is a strong professional tool, it is unfortunately also somewhat prone to short term sabotage.</p>
<p>The Voice – Nature or Nurture?</p>
<p>Not sure if this should be a new thread, but since my questions grow from this discussion I’ll put them here for starters.</p>
<p>I know many aspects of a voice can be trained, but it seems many fundamental qualities of a voice must be genetic.</p>
<p>When I see early recordings of star graduates from BFA programs with amazing voices, those remarkable voices were apparent even as kids. I also notice that many amazing singers have siblings who also have very strong voices. In addition, I see that D’s local teacher, who has taught many successful Broadway performers, has students with very individual voices in spite of sharing the same training regimen. I know our D has some unique vocal qualities that are VERY similar to her relatives who are working singers, including those who were operatically trained, trained in MT, and pop singers. </p>
<p>So my question is – to what extent are singing voices born versus trained, and which specific aspects of a voice can be most changed through quality training?</p>
<p>^^^oh the horrible (adorable) off-key video of my own kid from when she was a little squirt that I could show you momcares. Though I’d be killed for it. :)</p>
<p>If voice is genetic I can tell you for sure it’s a maternally inherited trait, because my D sure didn’t get it from me.</p>
<p>Yeah, I am always telling people my D did not get her voice from me. I can’t sing. :D</p>
<p>I agree with connections about the whole reputation thing in the professional world. </p>
<p>For example, the Off Broadway musical my D was recently cast in, started with her being called in to audition for it as those involved with the show were familiar with her work. It was still competitive and she had four callbacks and so obviously talent mattered. Professionalism and reputation also matter and can even get your foot in the door. </p>
<p>I can think of another example. When my D was casting an Equity production of her original musical workshop, they did not hold auditions, but a well known casting agency dealt with the casting in coordination with my D based on considering various established artists. I recall when the casting people sent my D a list of possible names, my D took a name off the list because my D had been in a musical workshop/reading with that actress and thought she had a poor work ethic and didn’t want to cast her in her own show. Currently, my D is involved in casting another musical she wrote that is having a NYC workshop and is a musical commissioned by a well known west coast theater. They are not holding auditions and will be casting it based on what they know of certain actors’ talent and so forth. Talent and professionalism reputations are ways people can be brought in on a show even without a live audition!</p>