The right to free speech is also the right to be judged by others.
Using your free speech to say hateful things will lead others to use their free speech to say that you are a hater.
@MomofJandL post 114
“We” are not just hearing about these groups now because of the internet. “You” may be hearing about them now.
Those of us in minority and multicultural families have been aware of them for decades. We haven’t had the choice to be oblivious.
@fractalmstr I’m sure you are correct in your logic (look, we agreed again 
) but I still don’t get it. This isn’t a partisan issue, at all.
alwaysamom: @TranquilMind Re: Ben Carson. You might want to read this.
Ah, the faux retraction and fake apology.
“This week, as
we’ve come under intense criticism for doing so, we’ve reviewed our profile and
have concluded that it did not meet our standards, so we have taken it down and
apologize to Dr Carson for having posted it.”
(snip) (BUT we really do stand behind our accusations)
"Dr. Carson has, in fact, made a number of
statements that express views that we believe most people would conclude are
extreme. They are described below. "
No, I’ve heard about them for ages as well. They’ve been out there and active for decades, and state and federal law enforcement has been keeping an eye on them for decades.
“ucbalumnus: Using your free speech to say hateful things will lead others to use their free speech to say that you are a hater. The right to free speech is also the right to be judged by others.”
Judge away, if that is your predilection. Say whatever you want. There are some astonishingly awful views out there that I hear represented in the media daily. I usually just shake my head.
What you don’t have the right to do is silence and smear, just because you don’t like someone’s view. If it’s someone in office, then vote. If it’s someone in media or entertainment, then don’t watch. If it’s someone in the street, then counter rationally, not violently.
September 2010 Time magazine wrote a long article about the growth of the independent militias.
Some quotes that I have cherry picked:
"…Some groups, though not many overtly, embrace the white-supremacist legacy of the Posse Comitatus, which invented the modern militia movement in the 1970s. Some are fueled by a violent stream of millennial Christianity. Some believe Washington is a secondary foe, the agent of a dystopian new world order…
…None of these movements are entirely new, but most were in sharp decline by the late 1990s. Their resurgence now is widely seen among government and academic experts as a reaction to the tectonic shifts in American politics that allowed a black man with a foreign-sounding name and a Muslim-born father to reach the White House…
…At least four alleged assassination plots between June and December—by militiamen in Pennsylvania, white supremacists in Denver, skinheads in Tennessee, and an active-duty Marine lance corporal at North Carolina’s Camp Lejeune—led to arrests and criminal charges before Obama was even sworn in…
regarding the man who attacked the Holocaust Museum:
"…What authorities did not disclose was how close the country had come to a seismic political event. Von Brunn, authoritative sources say, had another target in mind: White House senior adviser David Axelrod, a man at the center of Obama’s circle. The President was too hard to reach, in Von Brunn’s view, but that was of no consequence. “Obama was created by Jews,” he wrote. “Obama does what his Jew owners tell him to do.”
And then there is the usual bunch of preppers who are certain that anarchy is around the corner caused by economic collapse or a take over by the UN
Supporting biblical faith is one thing. Advocating removing basic rights (to shop at a public business, to use a public restroom, to serve in the military, to work in a public school, to get birth control, etc. etc. etc.) from those who do not share that same faith is hate.
@TranquilMind Is there a reason that you think that the retraction and apology are faux and fake? Come on. Did you read the quotes by Carson? Do you really want to be on the side of defending Carson’s bizarre comments? If so, I suppose that answers my first question. By the way, I didn’t notice anyone here suggesting that the SPLC should be taken as gospel.
@bhs1978 –
“white silence is violence” can be interpreted in many ways, including ‘violence happens when those who can prevent it (whites) don’t speak up – and act – to protect the vulnerable (POCs, religious minorities, the disabled) from those vowing to hurt them.’
How is that offensive?
@doschicos I respect your opinion however I must disagree. What you think of when you hear that chant is not necessarily what I hear. And I believe that is OK. We are all different and that’s what makes the world go round. Telling me I am offended by the wrong things kind of opens a Pandora’s box to start to tell people what they should or should not be offended by. I choose not to do that.
I am deeply offended by Nazis, White Supremacists, KKK and any racial bigotry and I firmly condemn what happened over the weekend. It sickens me.
But I stand by my statement that chanting “White silence is violence” is divisive. It does nothing to unify and I happen to disagree with the statement itself. You find it valid and I don’t. Again, that’s Ok in my opinion.
All posts by me are my opinions even if they don’t contain the IMO. Such is life. Perhaps the chant has you thinking about the issues, and various sides, which isn’t a bad thing in it’s own right. But, @bhs1978, I appreciate you coming back to explain your viewpoint further.
@doschicos, I don’t have to ask my friends in the military what is going on. I only retired a few months ago.
I was trying to point out the military has been dealing with this issue for a long time and they can’t only focus on one extremist group. They have to constantly be alert for the numerous groups who want their members to eventually get military training.
You seem to only focus on one group. I believe the US government can focus on more than one extremist group at a time. I think that MS 13 has been a bigger danger lately compared to the white supremacist groups but that is because an MS 13 gangs is more likely to live near and affect my extended family than a white supremacist group.
In a country with freedom, people have the right to be jerks or a/an (insert your favorite choice word here). They also have the right to have ideas, thoughts and beliefs you don’t agree with.
As I told my kid, I rather know who the racist is so i can stay away from them.
It only seems a few months ago that some people on the left were cheering the violence in Berkeley. it wasn’t a surprise that an far right group would come ready to fight a far left group at one of these marches.
I know we will see how the decisions made by the police department and other civilian government officials didn’t help diffuse the situation but made it worse.
So, @bhs1978, you don’t think that it’s somewhat complicitous to not speak up?
You don’t find anything morally troubling about the failure of people to stand up to, say, Nazis in 1930’s Germany? People failing to speak out against lynchings? Separate bathrooms for blacks and whites?
We KNOW what white supremacists want. They make it abundantly clear. Aren’t those who refuse to object to their heinous ideas and acts also tainted by them?
“Supporting biblical faith is one thing. Advocating removing basic rights (to shop at a public business, to use a public restroom, to serve in the military, to work in a public school, to get birth control, etc. etc. etc.) from those who do not share that same faith is hate.”
You are going afield to a new topic, so probably another thread is best for that. No one has ever advocated removing existing rights, nor to my knowledge, did the FRC request that rights be terminated.
“Alwaysamom: @TranquilMind Is there a reason that you think that the retraction and apology are faux and fake? Come on. Did you read the quotes by Carson? Do you really want to be on the side of defending Carson’s bizarre comments? If so, I suppose that answers my first question. By the way, I didn’t notice anyone here suggesting that the SPLC should be taken as gospel.”
SPLC: We were roundly criticized so we will say out of one side of our mouths that we “apologize” to Dr. Carson and out of the other, “But did you SEE what this guy said?!”
That is not an apology or a retraction. Period. At least call a spade a spade. Carson has the right to state his beliefs and anyone else has the right to counter them.
I agree with you, @dadoftwingirls, that the government can focus on other extremist groups like gangs and such. And yes, get military training plus recruiting within the ranks is part of it. I wouldn’t say I am focusing on one extremist group as white supremacy is actually many, many groups and factions. I am choosing to focus on white supremacists here because this thread was started after the Charlottesville events and the Unite the Right rally - hence my focus. Plus, several here seem to think that white supremacy is a small problem and even a shrinking problem. I’m trying to express that I think differently and that they should open their eyes to what is going on out there.
As far as the need to bring up MS 13 and even Berkeley into this discussion about white supremacy, I just don’t understand it. It deflects from - and IMO excuses the issue at hand.
@katliamom If you read my last post you would see that I strongly denounce White Supremacists, KKK, and Nazis. I also felt my reply to @doschicos was kind and respectful.
I choose not to protest and I respect those who choose not to protest and those who choose to peacefully protest. I treat all people with kindness and respect. And I respect how people respond and handle these issues differently. My morals are strongly intact!
The FRC says right on its own web page that it advocates terminating the rights of lesbian/gay people to get married.
@bhs1978 – but how do you “denounce” Nazis without protesting? Do you write to local papers? Contact local politicians? Support the ACLU? If you were in C’ville, what would you have done?
I honestly want to understand.
I’ve always wondered how I would have behaved in Berlin in the 30’s. Having lost relatives to Nazis, having had my family’s home and businesses decimated in Nazi bombings – and likewise having had some relatives accused in court of collaborating/doing business with Germans during the war – these are questions that are fairly central to my identity.
I would like to know that I would have protested against Nazi ideology before it got to… well, the level it got to!
So when someone says they wouldn’t protest but denounce fascists it makes me very curious to know just how they see themselves vis-a-vis supremacists marching (possibly) down their street…