Based on the UC admissions by source school web site, it seems that applicants from my daughter’s CA high school need straight As in order to get to the top 6 UCs and even UCSC can tolerate only up to 4 Bs (this is all assuming a tone of AP/honors classes). Given that she got a couple of Bs in her junior year, but her SAT is 1460 and her ECs are fairly strong, there is a good chance she may get admitted to some solid out of state schools, while in CA, she is going to get, at best, to UCSC. She is planning to major in chemistry and is thinking seriously about grad school. Does anyone have an opinion about whether it is worth to spend extra $10-20K per year for Purdue/UW/UIUC/UWM over UCR/UCSC? Private schools may be financially beyond my reach.
I think it comes down to can you afford it and do you want to afford it ?
There’s a huge price difference between a Purdue and then UIUC, UW, UWM. Purdue is at a much lower level.
Why not sub in less expensive - UMN which will be on par with Purdue cost wise and Ohio State a bit more. Or FSU which will be on par with Purdue cost wise with a chance for in state.
Or do like 1500+ Californians and go to an Alabama for $20k all in with merit based on her stats so half of Purdue.
Only you can answer the value question and the fit thought.
But I don’t think chem is a major that the where matters.
Btw have you looked at WUE schools like Oregon State, Utah, Colorado State and more. There’s discounts there too.
Like mentioned above, with merit scholarships minnesota, utah and ASU can get close to the price of UCs. These schools are comparable to the mid tier UCs in their chemistry program.
Yes why pay more when there are options like Utah that are the same price as UCs?
Note that what the admissions by source school don’t reveal is the subject: UCs are much harder admits for Engineering and CS than for L&S subjects like Chemistry, which can distort the results. My S23 got off the waitlist at UCSC for Astrophysics with 3.7UW, 5 APs (just under 4.0W) and no substantive ECs. So you might have a few more UC options than you think. But his backups were just ASU, UofAZ and Utah. All were auto admit, affordable and not too far to travel. Utah’s merit deadline is Dec 1 but the application is very easy. My D18 loved it there.
We had the same consideration last year. S24 applied Aerospace Engineering. For in state, only got accepted to UCR, SDSU and CPP. Waitlisted by UCD. For OOS, his top choices were TAMU ($60K), Ohio State ($45K) or uDub ($60K). He decided uDub due to location and intern opportunity. We paid deposit for admission and housing. Then he came off UCD waitlist and ended up losing the deposits and enrolled UCD.
To answer your question, we think $10K to $20K a year is worth to us if our kid really wants to attend the OOS college and it is a better fit. Good Luck.
Have you looked at WUE Schools?
What kind of graduate school? I.e. chemistry PhD (funded if worth attending) or something else like health professions (expensive)?
I was going to say the same basic thing as others. If you look around, there are some flagship-level publics that are happily picking off very qualified Californian students who do not get into one of their favorite UCs, including by being quite competitive on cost. Some are close to California, some a bit farther but still get a decent number of Californians like this anyway.
For Chemistry, farther away I would definitely look at Minnesota, Michigan State, Purdue, and Ohio State in terms of universities with excellent Chem departments that can be at least relatively competitive on cost OOS. Closer, for sure Arizona and Utah.
But you might not want to entirely write off privates as well, particularly LACs with strong Chem programs and also good merit programs. A lot of LACs do a great job feeding to PhD programs . . . indeed, you might want to check out this list, particularly the per capita list on the right, to see what I mean:
With merit, some of those colleges could end up surprisingly competitive on cost. I’d recommend at least looking at Juniata, Kalamazoo, Allegheny, Wooster, Hendrix, and St Olaf.
At the end of the day, a UC might well end up her best option, and there is nothing wrong with that. But if she at least wants some other interesting options to consider, these sorts of schools that really want to attract Californians just like your daughter, including by being cost-competitive, and also have excellent undergrad Chem programs, strike me as the direction to look.
I think this depends on what you can afford or want to pay, whether she plans to work first, what her career path might be, the possibility (or not) of loans…given the interest in grad school.
As noted above- what kind of grad school? What do these programs want in terms of prerequisites, any volunteering, shadowing or research etc? PhD programs are funded, while masters programs generally are not (although some may give a little merit, depending on the program).
One of my kids is currently in graduate school (majored in the sciences) and even with a small scholarship and getting in-state status her second year- the degree, including R/B which can be costly, is close to $70,000. Her program is part of the match, and while she was thrilled to have matched, she is very grateful to have matched to a less costly school. Some programs are more than double.
I think your original question is one that only you can answer based on family finances, fit, future career plans, etc. I also think you have been given many good options to consider for a degree in chemistry.
Thank you all for sharing you opinions. She is looking at the schools I mentioned assuming they are significantly better than UCR/UCSC and she has a good chance of getting there, while many of the schools mentioned in the discussion (especially WUE schools ) may not be significantly better than UCR/UCSC, so why bother going out of state. Whether this assumption is correct is part of the question. She has a couple of hard constraints too: it has to be a big school (definitely not an LAC) and not a school in the south. I do not believe she has a chance for a substantial merit scholarship (in case she does, she is applying to a couple of private colleges too). Finally, very few people from her high school apply to CS/Eng, which is why I believe that comparing the class rank against UC admissions by source school is the best indicator of her chances at UC. Regarding her grad school plans, she is thinking more about a PhD closer to the physics side of chem rather than bio/med programs.
I’m not sure they are significantly better than UCR/UCSC.
My D18 went to Utah while S23 is at UCSC. He specifically wanted Astrophysics and to be close to home, which tipped the balance in favor of UCSC. Otherwise Utah would likely have been preferable for better accommodation (especially with the cost and limited availability off campus in Santa Cruz), big time sports, skiing and the overall outdoor lifestyle. It would also have been slightly cheaper overall, even with WUE (D’s scholarship was much better than that, but she was a top 1% student who chose it over UCB and UCLA because she did a BFA in ballet). Both have enjoyed college and feel they picked correctly (D is much more outdoorsy than S).
My perception is that the mix of students is a bit different at UCR and UCSC. The high costs and risky accommodation situation at UCSC (along with the beautiful but isolated coastal setting) mean that it’s tilted more towards middle class students who can pay up for accommodation if needed and don’t go home as much. UCR has relatively more local first gen students, more like UCM, who often go home at weekends. The one kid we know who went to UCR from the Bay Area found it hard to fit in.
Define significantly better ? For some, they may be. For others, they may be worse. One can’t judge ‘better’ although many try to based on rank. I’m talking about their experience.
I would not consider the other schools ‘better’ on paper. Maybe more name recognition.
But worth more money based on their name - personally I don’t think so.
But again - that value question is up to you.
If one is going to grad school - lots of never heard of schools like Kalamazoo, Minnesota Morris, Wabash, Allegheny, Hendrix and more send a much higher percentage of students to PhD programs than any schools on your list.
Your student would qualify for significant merit OOS but not at the schools you notes. Merit comes from picking the right schools.
UIUC, Wisconsin and Washington aren’t them. Removing the South, UMN, Ohio State, Miami Ohio, Delaware, Kansas, K State, Iowa State Michigan State, and more.
For the most parts, a flagship or major school is just that, and in 90% of cases, I’m not sure the name matters. UIUC isn’t necessarily better than Arizona - just harder to get into.
Fit does matter - and it sounds like maybe a hesitancy to leave the state. If that’s the case, consider how far some of these schools on your list are vs more regional like the Oregon and Arizona schools.
Good luck
I am confused as to whether you are looking for additional schools that might give merit, or if you are only considering the OOS schools listed in your original post and want to know if they are worth spending more.
Can you please clarify?
I’m also confused as to what she (and you) are looking for in a school. What, to you, is “better”?
The latter. I am wondering if these OOS are worth spending more money.
By “better” schools I mean mostly academic level, and the selection of courses, research opportunities, and probably prestige, that could potentially help when applying to a grad school. I believe that all the schools I mentioned fall into her preferred type: large public schools with strong STEM program and lively campus. Of course, there are still variations within this broad category, so I appreciate the comments that have been made about the difference between UCSC and UCR.
I agree this sort of depends on what you mean by “significantly better”.
But just to offer some semi-objective measures, since she is only interested in larger research publics, I’d suggest we can look at both the totals version of that PhD feeders in Chemistry list I provided, as well as EduRank, which is purely a research measure:
In terms of PhD feeders, Riverside is not on the top 50 list, but Santa Cruz is, at #21. On EduRank, Riverside is #75 in the US, and Santa Cruz is not in the top 100, but if you look it up under their own page it is #116 in the US.
Just since you mentioned it, they also have a Physical Chemistry subranking:
Riverside is #50, Santa Cruz is #107.
OK, so here are other colleges she is considering and some other large publics named here on both measures (PhD feeders/EduRank(Physical Chem subrank)):
Purdue 18/29 (11)
Washington 13/8 (18)
Illinois 14/15 (8)
Wisconsin 17/14 (12)
Minnesota 6/16 (9)
Ohio State 21/22 (26)
Michigan State 27/41 (45)
Utah 34/37 (28)
Arizona 32/39 (40)
OK, so overall, I would say all these options scored better by these measures. However, Santa Cruz is a good example of how while even though it does not necessarily have the most prolific department for research in Chemistry (or Physical Chemistry), it still attracts its fair share of the sorts of students who go on to Chemistry PhD programs. But so do these other colleges. Conversely, Riverside has a reasonably strong research program in this area (although maybe not quite on the level of any of these), but perhaps does not attract quite so many of that sort of academicky Chem student (although I am sure there are some, just not enough to make the top 50 in this study).
Then what she should think about any of this is very personal, but I do think the four originally named are particularly good choices for her academic interests. I would also suggest at least strongly considering adding Minnesota to that list–it really does have a top department in this area, AND it also has a reasonably robust merit program. You can even check their NPC to see what she should get.
And I would at least think about the others too. Again I think they all have stronger research programs in this area than either of those UCs, and I think it is fair to say they also attract more academicky Chem students than at least Riverside (although maybe less so Santa Cruz). Whether that makes them “significantly better” is again very personal, but it is something I would suggest is at least worth considering.
Only if she feels the experience will be better and you can and want to afford the delta.
Are you seeking an assured better outcome or grad school or research access. And is grad school a masters or PhD?
Highly unlikely that on paper the $$ are worth it but she might better enjoy the experience. Or not.
Chemistry is a tough major vs say ChemE but there are jobs at the Bachelor and Masters level but in general the major is tough with many ending up teaching but also joining industry in food, petroleum, etc but I believe it’s an underwhelming major job opportunity wise.
Good luck.
I used UNC as a comparator, only because they have a good, easy to access job board.
27% are further schooling and I imagine many focus on health careers - med school or alternatives.
But those employed, beyond UNC as Research Assistants, here’s where they ended up - median salary $47k which is low but again may include kids in jobs getting ready for grad school. Those I know in the major - four I can think of - two teach and two are in medical sales.
Personal decision - I’d say no but you may feel otherwise. And while you are set on those schools you listed, as you brought up the dollar delta, both UMN and UDel (the home of chemicals) would provide far more bang for your buck than any school sans Purdue which is already priced much less.
Good luck.
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I think you mentioned that your daughter is interested in a PhD. Keep in mind that she is in HS and may change her mind multiple times over the next few years as she meets new people and is exposed to different experiences, classes etc. There is also the possibility that she will not change her mind.
PhD programs are highly competitive and very stressful. I say this based on a small sample- 2 current PhD students that I know, as well as discussions that my daughter has had with her professors. One student is leaving the program and at least one prof almost dropped out due to stress. The other Phd student learned about some program news and was almost in a position where they could not complete the program. I am not saying this to discourage, but rather to provide a small dose of reality. Of course there are Phd students with positive experiences.
I would choose the school that seems to be the best fit, assuming affordability without hardship. If your daughter is interested in research, I would look into schools where that could happen. Most/many schools provide research opportunities, but in our experience the process is much, much easier at some schools over others. I think it is important for your daughter to learn whether she actually likes research.
As far as employment with a BS- that could happen. Your daughter will decide if those are the types of jobs she likes.
She will learn a lot over the next few years.
This because in the end, for everyone who writes as a 17 year old they want to pursue a PhD, few will. As you note, they will learn a lot including - is the major even for them ?
But when you have ‘affordability,’ you have the ability to make future choices vs having that ability hampered.
Good luck to OP’s student.
Ps I think the crux of the question is - is a UCSC or UCR worse than other mid level UCs since that seems the goal - and I highly doubt it.
Good luck.