Uncomfortable at Work

Parent Cafe
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<p>I’m a graduate engineer on the precipice of licensure, in the construction industry. I’m also a woman. I’m the seniormost full-time female professional in the department, come to think of it.</p>

<p>Scenario 1: We have an open floor plan. My direct supervisor (former Marine, male) is standing at the wall beside me, and is involved in a conversation diagonally across my workspace with another coworker (martial artist, male) who’s standing behind me, at the open side of my workspace. They have a very long conversation about how, in foreign countries, it’s perfectly socially acceptable to treat women terribly. They continue with this conversation, matter-of-factly and pointedly reiterating the points… “socially acceptable”… “treat the women terribly”… giving examples for about five minutes, as I sit there in silence, trying to ignore. It’s impossible that they haven’t noticed that I’m incredibly uncomfortable.</p>

<p>Scenario 2: Different subset of coworkers, talking today about the reporter who went into the locker room and was sexually harassed. They’ve surrounded my workspace and are holding the conversation around me. “There’s got to be two-way respect,” says a coworker, “If you’re going to walk into a locker room, then you’ve got to respect that.” Another coworker says, “No kidding. Did you see what she was wearing? A halter top and short shorts.” Silently churning, I say, “So, she was asking for it?” Completely oblivious to my sarcasm, my coworkers chuckle and say, “Well, yeah!” Another coworker says, “If you wear something like that into a LOCKER ROOM, you HAVE to expect that that sort of thing is going to happen.” They got wrapped up in their conversation, which turned to sports, and then they left to go to lunch.</p>

<p>Since I’m an assistant project manager in charge of the day-to-day management of a large number of people that are working on my project, I try to watch out for my people and run interference for them as much as I can. I think this could really be a great place to work, but I’ve been working with HR and managing up to help develop the tools we need to do our jobs. I’ve been getting some great commendations for it, too, but there’s been some friction along the way. I’ve called some attention to some management practices that are self-defeating-- withholding praise and doling out constant criticisms, a lot of berating employees in front of other employees, and a lot of just-plain-rudeness. HR recommended that I continue to work on countering that with humor and by using my own positivity to re-energize the troops, and that they’d work on it from their end. I’ve not heard from HR since, though I see the people I talked to in the halls every day. I have, however, heard from the stressed-out, negativity-prone managers when I try to cajole them into thanking their staff at the ends of meetings, or saving personal criticism for private settings rather than staff meetings: “Well, I’m not changing my management style. That’s not going to change.”</p>

<p>I felt run-down at work, tired and stressed out, having been tasked with managing-the-managers, but since the two scenarios above happened, there’s this growing feeling of “I’m not safe” that I’m noticing, too… Hairs on the back of my neck prickling. Something subtle. Something not-really-reportable, nothing you can really put your finger on and say, “That behavior has to stop,” not that HR has any appreciable sway over the tide of upper management.</p>

<p>Were I to mention this sort of thing to anybody, I’d be outed as a malcontent, branded as the-woman-who-cried-harassment. My coworkers’ attitudes towards me would change, and all for a paltry couple of conversations that skirted good taste, but that still made this office, the place I spend most of my time, feel unwelcoming indeed.</p>

<p>My inclination is to do nothing, as nothing can be done. I cannot change these men. I cannot overpower the older guys to keep them from passing along their coarseness and intimidation to the ones that they train… I see the younger ones picking up the same tactics, using them on people more vulnerable than they are.</p>

<p>I do truly relish the idea of engineering; I clench it in my hands and do not want to relinquish it so easily to so stupid a cause. I want to design incredible, wonderful things with the best and most talented. I want to put pencil to paper and write equation after equation, build the basis for the advancement of modern construction and architecture with graphite and numbers, and I have worked constantly and strenuously for two decades to make that happen. Now that I’m here, now that I’ve gained entry to this prestigious group… Guys, we could have made this into the greatest adventure of our lives. Does it really have to be, “Welcome to the pinnacle! You can stay as long as you manage not to get skewered during the Running of the Boors”?</p>

<p>Worse yet, I have been the pied piper, with my thousands of posts, and my enthusiastic talks to multitudinous young women, and my mentoring of handful upon handful of excited young engineering students, set ablaze by my passion for an idealistic view of what my field should theoretically be.</p>

<p>I’m not sure what I intend with this thread. This should probably be a journal entry–it gives me comfort to set my thoughts to carefully-chosen words–but I thought maybe someone would respond with something that would bump me out of the rut, or at least give me a direction to lean towards.</p>

<p>Any clever ideas out there as to how to modernize a stodgy old industry?</p>

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</p>

<p>Relax and take it easy for a few days.</p>

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<p>Many are unemployed. Have gratitude.</p>

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<p>You shouldn’t have to tolerate this unprofessional behavior. You have a few choices on the conversations - </p>

<ul>
<li>Tell the co-workers directly you’re not comfortable with having to be overhear their conversation and to please refrain from the banter on topics like this around you. If they’re just clueless types this may go okay but otherwiise they may harbor ill will against you as a result. </li>
<li>Talk to their manager(s) to get them to quit. You can request they not identify you as the person complaining.</li>
<li>Talk to HR about it although it’s really more of a management issue to resolve and HR isn’t a substitute for management.</li>
<li>Put up with it - but you shouldn’t have to.</li>
</ul>

<p>I’ve been in the position of being a manager of someone who someone else from another group complained to me about. She had every right to complain and I took it seriously and put a stop to it right away. This person she complained about was in the ‘clueless’ category - i.e. he didn’t realize he was being so obnoxious. It’s surprising how many people are like this.</p>

<p>Some people are just not very swift and not cognizant (or not caring) about people around them when they speak. Sometimes they just need to be told. A workplace isn’t a place of ‘free speech’ and should be a professional environment.</p>

<p>Your post indicates some that in general the company on the one hand is a somewhat hostile workplace with managers openly berating employees and not giving adequate recognition but on the other hand you’ve been given recognition. You’ll need to decide if
this is a company you’d like to continue working at for a much longer term.</p>

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<p>I read your post again, OP, and I don’t see why you were bothered by those conversations. I don’t get the harassment. I hear conversations that you don’t enjoy. I am a woman, and I agree that the reporter was dressed provocatively. Does that mean she deserved to be harassed? Absolutely not. Was she unprofessional in her dress? Yes, she was. It is a valid point.</p>

<p>Are people supposed to spend twelve hours a day in an office and never have an authentic conversation? PC can be taken so far that it is as much of a threat to productivity as any other disruption.</p>

<p>If you are in with HR trying to manage the managers, you are going to invite resentment. That is just common sense.</p>

<p>A big part of being successful at work is clicking with people. Chilling out. Being thick-skinned. Harassment should not be tolerated, but it is too serious of an issue for that word to be thrown around lightly.</p>

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<p>“Many are unemployed. Have gratitude.”</p>

<p>Posts like this really irk me. The OP thoughtfully presented an issue to the ranks of CC and would like some constructive help. (Maybe that’s why there was a second post an hour later?)</p>

<p>Aibarr, I’m sorry you’re having a tough time at work right now. I’m hoping someone will post who works in an environment similar to yours. I work in an almost-all-female environment, so I’m not really sure what advice to give you.</p>

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<p>I don’t think you have to put up with it. But as with any distraction during work I believe you can just indicate that they need to move along and take the conversation out of the work area as it is not appropriate. You can do it without being ugly or accusing about it. Or join the conversation in a polite way and bring it to a close quickly. There are several ways to do it. If it is really persistent and continues then a discussion with managers or HR is appropriate. General workplace training for workplace conduct could be arranged. That is how it was managed in the company I worked for. There were several levels of training, for employees and managers regarding workplace diversity, sensitivity and appropriate behavior, etc for the workplace. There is a great diversity in the workplace now, not just with employees but with customers and training on how to manage it is valuable for everyone. </p>

<p>And BTW - the only people who can say her dress was inappropriate are the people she works for. Aztec TV was fine with it? It is fine. It is a different culture. And it is not a license for harassment. We cannot go back to the “she asked for it” mentality. There was a good editorial piece in the Washington Post about the delicate nature of the locker room and EVERYONE has to behave professionally. The guys didn’t. She did not complain, someone else did for her.</p>

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<p>aibarr, I am going to forward your post to my son, who works as an engineer. His immediate supervisor is female. He has never had any complaints about her and I hope he doesn’t engage in any of these behaviors, but I think your post was well written and a good reminder on a lot of fronts.</p>

<p>I enlisted in the military at age 17, so worked in a heavily male/macho environment for four years. I learned early on to ignore the crude talk, which was omnipresent. As long as I did my job well, I was personally treated OK. Later I worked on a trading floor, which was far worse than anything experienced in the military in terms of crude behavior, and not something you could escape since every person is about two feet from every other person. I just learned to shut my ears. As in your first two scenarios, the comments were not directed against me personally. Only one time did I take a stand, leaving a business dinner in which the clients made such obnoxious comments that I felt I would be unforgiveably rude if I didn’t just leave. When asked to explain my behavior, I just matter of factly explained why I had left and apologized, because in fact my leaving this dinner was pretty rude as well. The company “took my side” and it became this huge deal, with HR involved, apologies demanded from the clients and a true nightmare for me. I wish I had just sat there and ignored the comments.</p>

<p>I guess my point is that you could encounter this in lots of places, not just engineering. At most, I will sometimes try to make a point with humor. When I had to pick up someone from an all male club (which they still have around here), I put a Helen Reddy tape in the CD and played I Am Woman Hear Me Roar with the windows open while I waited in front of the building. In sum, modernizing with humor and an indirect approach may be your best bet.</p>

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<p>Get your lisence and become the manager, probably somewhere else, someday maybe at your own company. In the meantime, all I can say is that the only thing you can really do is use your sense of humor. If I read the subtext correctly, in scenario one, they are doing this over your work area but kind of “at” you. So, your only defense is to join in, in some ways, with Marina Bobbit type stories…stories of military men "off to war’ and thier male brides…historical warrior types and the men they loved.</p>

<p>It sounds crude and annoying, but the less they think it “gets” to you, the more they will leave you alone. </p>

<p>Then, you have to know, as horrifying as it is, even today, women are still bringing suits against very large companies in male dominated fields…I know “Goldman” is currently being sued by some women. </p>

<p>The locker room discussion? I’d just be as funny as I could be. The locker room situation is kind of a whole other story. </p>

<p>The only reason I say all this is just because you are almost liscensed. If you had your lisence? I’d say, “Get out of there and find a new place.” Anyway, you are going to have to do that eventually if you want to rise in your field with less social discomfort. This doesn’t seem to be the place where they are going to truly fast track a woman without giving her a rough time of the kind you would probably not enjoy.</p>

<p>Good luck to you, though. I hope you are able to develop the kind of sense of humor which will make them think twice before they come at you, in this passive-aggressive way.</p>

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<p>spideygirl- It doesn’t have to be harassment to create a “hostile work environment”. The scenarios presented by the OP have not quite reached the level of hostile work environment, in my opinion (I am a lawyer who works in the labor/employment area) but it is getting close. The issue about the female reporter is “news” and I heard those exact comments on our local radio station.<br>
I completely understand how the OP is feeling, and this is why it is important for companies to have some sort of confidential reporting system or good HR support so that these things can be addressed. It is a sensitivity issue and a matter of increasing awareness among the male employees that not everyone (i.e. females) appreciates some of this conversation. At our company we do a lot of training around these “gray areas”.</p>

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<p>Aibarr, you do not have to tolerate this. THere a couple ways to deal with the two situations you laid out. The first and least confrontational way would be to simply state
“Guys, I have a lot of work to do this morning, you are talking over my workspace, I am going to have to ask you to move this conversation someplace else.” If it is their intent to annoy you it lets them know you are not going to put up it, if they are in fact having an “unthinking conversation” they should have no problem moving on. The second is to engage in some direct humor. In the first case you could say something like “Well good for you that you live in America, cause you would be in world of hurt if you treated me that way.” and “Isn’t that shameful? Aren’t you glad you live in country where your mother, wife,daughters, friends, co-workers are afforded the respect their deserve?” I don’t think I would use humor in the second case, I would simply tell them REPEATLY if need be to move the conversation away from you. </p>

<p>You do not have to remain silent, but there are ways to stop it without pulling in the big guns. A professional business place is just that — professional. And these guys are doing their break time talk in your work space. Make them move.</p>

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<p>I’m not an atty, but since you’ve asked for opinions…
I agree with Op, it has been tasteless talk. Annoying as that is, annoying isn’t illegal. It isn’t harrassment.
If the talk gets worse, to the level you might consider harrassment, remember there are some conditions the alleged victim must fulfill. Unless the conduct is so blatant(such as grabbing a breast- one example) then the offended party must have objected to the behavior. If a circle of 10 people laugh at a dirty joke, but then one of them later goes to report it as harrassment then that won’t fly. Their conduct before- remaining to hear the joke and laughing- served as an indication that employee considered the behavior acceptable. And that was a real-life example from a former workplace.
Another example was in a factory I worked in. Some guys were jumpy if appraoched from behind, and some co-workers would “goose” them. Sophmoric, I know, but that’s not my point. Anyway, one woman “goosed” Tom, he jumped, and all laughed. 2 days later, Tom goosed the woman, and she went straight to the office. “How dare he touch her behind!” As soon as it came to light she had goosed him 2 days before she was quickly ordered out of the office. She was advised that she cannot consider it unacceptable behavior if she had done the very same thing to others.
So I urge you to be careful, and do not even appear to participate, or even to be indifferent to what you think might be borderline illegal behavior. It could undermine your credibility if things get worse.</p>

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<p>

I read this and in the wisdom of my old age thought - why did you not step up and partake in the conversation. Attitude is everything. Go ahead and assert youself. Not in a in-your-face- you are hostile way but go ahead and join in. Something like - “you’re right, isn’t America great” kind of way; then change the subject back to work.
You spoke volumes when you said you are stressed and tired. Take a deep breath and relax. Even if you think it’s all about you (perhaps with good reason) don’t come across that way. Once they see they have gotten under your skin they win.
Getting along with people works both ways - so, next time step up to the plate.</p>

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<p>And commenting on Op’s scenario 2-
I see a big difference between - she should expect it, and she had it coming.
The now famous reporter that had killer good looks, chose to dress in a shirt and very tight jeans but insists she is a “professional”, who bills herself as the sexiest reporter in Mexico enters the men’s locker room seeing males in the prime of their life in many stages of undress feels uncomfortable(her words) when these fellows make catcalls. Expect it? I’d say how could you not expect it? She wasn’t dressed like the female, professional reporters on ESPN. Deserve it? No.
Why do we never hear of these cases on the women’s swim team, or the women’s soccer team? Are these women much better behaved toward male reporters when men are in their showers? Or are men not permitted in their showers? Do those who protest the treatment of women in mens locker rooms also fight for equal, proper treatment of male reporters in women’s locker rooms?
Using the common example, a woman walks down a dark street 3:a.m in a miniskirt deserve to be raped? No. No woman deserves it. But wouldn’t we all warn a woman not to do that if she were our friend, to try to avoid it?
As for the workplace conversation, you would have a hard time convincing anyone that a conversation was unnacceptable if you were a willing participant that partook in the talk. Merely disagreeing with someone’s opinion doesn’t make the whole conversation illegal.</p>

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<p>I’m amazed at the number of peopl who think the behavior of the men are acceptable. It is disrespectful to the OP. That being said, I’ll allow for the cluelessness–once and only once.</p>

<p>I’d ask the men is that type of conversation were acceptable around their wives or daughters. </p>

<p>I wouldn’t join in the conversations, because they could turn even uglier and make you uncomfortable (have gone that route). You have to assert yourself and let them know you’d rather they have those type of conversations out of earshot from you.</p>

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<p>I am puzzled by the first sentence of Silvermoonlock, it is so broad. Referring to the men’s behavior in Op’s scenario 1? Referring to men on the Jets team? Referring to men that post here? May I ask Silver to clue me in on what she is talking about so I may discuss it?</p>

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<p>I sat on the trading floor for the first 10 years of my career. The working environment has changed a lot since then. I was asked to contribute for a stripper for someone’s birthday on the trading floor. I said to them, “No, a woman stripper doesn’t do anything for me. Let me know when you get a male stripper.” They walked away laughing. They have also asked me if Asian girls were ___ in bed. My come back was, “if you have ever gone out with one then you would know.” After a while, they just left me alone, but they continued to harass other people.</p>

<p>D1 is venturing into the same business. She did fine this summer. There were few subtle incidents. My advice to her was to be professional, do not engage in any inappropriate conversation with people, if necessary, come back with few zingers then walk away. Last thing to do is to get HR involved, even if she wants to leave the company. One thing to remember is that HR is there to protect the company, not employees. Always assume whatever you tell HR would go straight to your manager. </p>

<p>I have my own farm to run now, and I do it the way I like it. I practice a lot of what OP says. My managers are not allowed to scream at their staff, and I do not tolerate inappropriate behavior at work. I am in the process of moving some guy out of my department because he is having an affair. </p>

<p>Work place is like a playground. There will always be bullies or games you don’t like to play. You need to pick your fight carefully. If it becomes too much for you, then you should leave, it’s too much energy to change the culture.</p>

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<p>aibarr–
I am sorry you are having to experience these situations in your work environment. It makes life unpleasant and stressful. I understand perfectly what you are talking about because I have lived it, and I have seen and talked to other women who have lived it.</p>

<p>The fact that there are very few upper-level women in your office creates the conditions for the environment you describe to exist. If they would hire more female engineers, over time there would be improvement, which does not help you today. However, keep that in mind as a long-term goal.</p>

<p>Since you are asking for advice, I will tell you that taking your complaints about rude and boorish individuals to management is a kind of “burn the village” solution, and often results in you being hurt in the long run more than the people you are complaining about. I agree with the advice of others that you should use humor, which can allow you to state a dissenting position without confrontation. This both shows that you do not intend to be rolled over and that you are calling them on their boorishness. Not that it is any kind of excuse, but often men think this immature behavior is funny, and do not realize it is stressful.</p>

<p>May it strengthen you to know that you pave the way to make your workplace better for women who come after you. I know for a fact there are engineering colleges which are working hard to graduate more women.</p>

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<p>I have worked for the last two two years in a department that is similar to the environment OP discusses. Almost all male (2 women – and the other woman is gone from the office at least 50% of the time, 11 men in our area). This kind of behavior is a “guy” thing (I know, not all guys – we have 3 or 4 who don’t participate, but the others see nothing wrong with it). That doesn’t mean I don’t hate it, or wish it would change. But, like the OP, I know it is difficult to do without making it harder to work with them. Sometimes I use humor (or a mumbled comment ALMOST under my breath while I keep my head down and keep working so they can see that I am annoyed, but not confrontational about it, then sometimes they stop), occasionally when it is really bad I will call them directly on it. But sometimes I just ignore it. Especially when the economy was at its worst, and I wasn’t sure if I would be able to find another job. I have recently moved to a new assignment (but for the moment am still sitting in the “guy” area).</p>

<p>My past experience is that (duh!) mixed gender teams rarely have this issue. My advice to the OP is to finish your licensure, then go looking for a more mixed gender environment within your own company or outside it. Sorry to take a “boys will be boys” attitude, but I personally don’t have the energy to try to change the whole human race (because fundamentally testosterone/male one-up-manship needs are at the root of this). And I need to feed my kids and pay their tuition.</p>

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<p>As far as the guys talking near you, you could easily have popped up and told them to “take the conversation somewhere else please, I’m trying to work.” That is totally acceptable in any work environment.</p>

<p>As far as management style, unfotunately there are companies that promote people because of the caliber of their “work” and not the caliber of their “people” skills. To have managers with less than stellar people skills is not uncommon in engineering organizations. Perhaps your HR group can set up some group training around DISC or some of the other types of courses they help people understand other people’s work styles. 360 degree feedback for mid-level managers is also a helpful tool (separate from the review cycle) to help managers understand how their personal style meshes with their teams or to create an atmosphere of awareness about different work styles.</p>

<p>As far as you, personally, do you have a mentor, or someone that is “helping” you navigate your way in the company? If not, it might be helpful to find someone above you that you feel comfortable bouncing your feelings and thoughts off to gain some additional perspective. It’s tough to go-it alone. Negativity and low engagement are rampant in the workforce these days and everyone is stressed out. Companies have different cultures and tolerances for management style and it’s helpful to have a trusted advisor to help you navigate. I know that doesn’t help you immediately but you need to have someone to bounce this stuff off so that you don’t sink into stress and negativity. If you haven’t taken time off lately, maybe it’s time for that, also. A few days away from workplace stress can do wonders.</p>

<p>One more thing, and this is my opinion… these days “harassment” is a very strong term and simply using that word can send shivers up anyone in HR’s spine. Keep in touch with them but be factual and try not to use “labels” to explain the environment you are working in, use concrete examples…let them determine if it’s “harassment” or not and apply the “labels.”</p>