<p>I think Oldfort has demonstrated another grey area. Clearly, her response about a female stripper worked for her. I applaud her confidence and her quick, witty response. Certainly, if they proceeded in hiring the female stripper she could have no reasonable objection, she even indicated she might chip in if it were a male. But therein lies the grey area. What if other women in the area were offended by a female stripper? Oldfort isn’t offended(but bored) while others may be offended. There lies a difficult distinction to make over who is justifiably offended and who is too sensitive?</p>
<p>Oh, one more thing… I do keep a pair of earplugs at my desk 
One of the few “civilized” guys gave them to me one day when he could see that I was bothered by the loud and obnoxious behavior of the guy who runs the department next to ours. Occasionally I have put them in when the guys seem to be having a particularly rambunctious day.</p>
<p>FYI, I do feel like the departement “mom” some days (I am older than many of these guys by about 10 years). And they sort of think of it that way (although they say things in front of me that I think they would NEVER say to their moms). But it helps that they really respect my work; I have proven my worth to them over the past couple of years, and they were dismayed when I took a new assignment. OP, I am not clear how long you have been with the group, but realistically that is a factor in this, too. They (1) could be testing you, see if you cry “harassment”; (2) they will take little more pushback if they respect your work, I think. That takes a while to establish.</p>
<p>younghoss…You can’t be a women in the financials, especially trading, if you can’t fire back to some extent. You can always set yourself up to be the one who stands in the way, legally speaking, but there is no way another company will hire you to trade. I agree with intparent. Find a more mixed gender environment once you’re licensed. It takes a certain type of person to “integrate” an office. You’re doing great, but you might not want to hassle in the future.</p>
<p>YMMV</p>
<p>I’m bothered also by the negative management style and the public berating of employees. It seems that this work environment is accustomed to, and maybe even prefers, that it’s employees are uncomfortable and unhappy. That would be difficult to overcome. The OP is setting a different example with her management style and maybe that’s creating some friction.</p>
<p>It is no longer tolerated to have strippers coming to a work place, male or female. Things have improved in the last 20 years. We are also not allowed to send off color jokes via email(we monitor that). </p>
<p>I think mom3 raised some very good points that OP may want to consider. </p>
<p>At every one of my jobs, I always have a close network of woman friends. We vent and we help each other out. I do see more women moving up. My manager has 5 women out of 12 on his exco, and we are the most vocal at each meeting. On my management team, it’s 50 50.</p>
<p>Be grateful? Wow, just wow.</p>
<p>Agree with poetgrl. Use humor to get your point across.</p>
<p>I like oldfort’s suggestion to use humor to zing back when possible… makes the point without making you look like you’re whining or seeking special treatment. Of course, that assumes that you are actively in the conversation to begin with - but seeing as the first scenario you proposed was men talking literally right past you but not to you, it might be a little harder. In that case, I like momofthreeboys solution:</p>
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<p>It seems to me that you are in a male-dominated industry, so you right in that you are going to have to figure out how to deal with what appears to me to be mostly “clueless” behavior. It doesn’t seem they’re going out of their way to annoy you… they’re just being their obnoxious selves.</p>
<p>The constant berating and lack of positive reinforcement may not be just a male thing. My female boss never thanks anyone for anything they do work-wise, but is quick to jump down people’s throats if they make a mistake. That’s just unprofessional, IMHO. It also sounds like its this company’s culture, so you may want to start thinking if you want to polish up your resume and begin discretely inquiring into firms who seem to have a more positive atmosphere. </p>
<p>Don’t kid yourself - I work in an all-female workplace, and it’s no picnic either. Middle School Mean Girls are alive and well in their 60’s. Perhaps the solution is a 50/50 male-female workplace? Doesn’t sound likely in your industry, at least not yet.</p>
<p>Time to pull out the serenity prayer: God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. It looks to me like you are seeking the wisdom to know what you can and cannot change. It’s a good place to start.</p>
<p>Oh, yes, Lafalum84, I have also worked in an all female workplace, and it is equally awful in a different way… Meeooowww!! A mixed gender workplace is definitely my preference. Both sexes behave better in that situation. :)</p>
<p>Some specific examples of permissable behavior may have changed over years, as Oldfort now points out with her stripper example, but the troubles I was trying to point out using her example haven’t changed.
Oldfort voiced no objection to a stripper when asked to chip in for a female stripper; though she said she chose not to chip in because she had no interest in a woman. She expressed her interest in a male stripper though, again indicating she had no objection. My point isn’t that a strip-o-gram was/was not acceptable yrs ago, or whether it is today; my point was not how sensitive/insensitive Oldfort is. I also did not express my approval/disapproval for a stripper. Rather, I’m trying to show that some people see the same situation differently and unless a person who objects makes it clear that they object, then their acceptance of the situation is implied. Much like the example of 5 children walk down an alley and 2 throw rocks and break a window. If the other 3 do nothing to raise an objection and maybe take action, then all 5 of them are considered participants.
Unless, as I said before, grabbing a woman’s breast is an easy example of blatant misbehavior. Not all real-life examples are so clear cut. I can remember from the Anita Hill case that the alleged victim has an obligation to speak up and say no- rather than saying nothing and then coming to complain much later. Of course, Ms. Hill was complaining of illegal sexual harrassment, not merely of being annoyed.</p>
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<p>I have to agree with this. I’ve often used the phrase “pick your fights carefully” when talking with direct reports who are having “issues.” Companies can be very “aware” of their culture but not really want to or prepared to “change” their culture.</p>
<p>I agree with the “mean girls” comment above. Yikes some of the worse environments I’ve worked in have had a preponderance of females. I can handle boorish guys but *****y women going for your jugular my oh my. So…the grass is not always greener as they say.</p>
<p>I’ve been working in the construction industry for ten years. Was one of the first women to sit on a large board consisting of “good old boys” who were not only men but were native to the area while I’ve only lived here twenty years (a newcomer in their eyes).
Humor works…honestly these conversations were definitely not your cup of tea but I wouldn’t consider them harassment, just unthinking guys yakking in your space.<br>
Men don’t over think these things.
After time I have found that they get to know my style. Here it is: no ********, I am smart, I am good at what I do. Respect me for that. I don’t have time for idle stupid chat so do it away from my workspace. You can get all that across with a look, a one sentence comment, or a joke. Your choice.<br>
I would not consider this a matter to escalate or go to HR over…YMMV.</p>
<p>aww CC censored me. Starred word began with a b and ended with a t.</p>
<p>I am a man and I had witnessed discrimination against women. But that was 2 decades ago. I have not seen anything like that in the last 10 years. Companies are now very aware of discrimination, harassement,… and they have classes to train employees in this matter. The rule of thumb is if you say something that makes your spouse or your children uncomfortable then you should not say it in front of your coworkers.</p>
<p>I think the OP should document the incidents (date, time, where, who are involved, what were said,…). If this continues to happen, you should go talk to HR. If HR or chief executives of the company don’t respond, talk to a lawyer and sue them big time.</p>
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Abso-damn-loutely! My first job out of college 25 years ago was a living hell because of this … women who prided themselves on their “feminism” but behaved like junior-high cheerleaders. Talk about a hostile workplace! OP’s situation sucks, but at least it isn’t personal. Give me men any day!</p>
<p>OP, are there other women in your company (on in your city) who are dealing with similar issues?(I am sure there are plenty, but do you know any of them personally?)
There are groups like this one:
[url=<a href=“http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/hgwise/]HGWISE[/url”>http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/hgwise/]HGWISE[/url</a>] that help women deal with these situations. At the very least they discuss those issues and validate your feelings. In the long run, they also , hopefully, build awareness and bring change.
Is there a group similar to this in your area for women in science and engineering? Could you join it? Or start one?</p>
<p>I guess I don’t totally get it. Coolweather: sue them big time for what? They didn’t make lewd comments about the locker room situation, they didn’t say anything specifically to the female employee…the first conversation sounded fairly intellectual in nature unless I am completely misreading the post?</p>
<p>ebeeeee- Have you had any harassment training class in your company yet? I have been required to take several classes in many companies. If the managers of the company don’t address the complaints then you can sue. The complaints may be valid or invalid but they have to take action, at least to provide guidelines to avoid any possible misunderstanding. In my current company, employees are encouraged to talk directly to top managers above supervisor level if they feel they jobs are hindered by the workplace environment. They even have ethics committee to handle the matter. The employees can also call state for federal goverment office to file complaints. I just completed my annual ethics and harassement class last week.</p>
<p>I do agree that keeping track of the incidents (just take some notes, who/when/quotes) if this stuff keeps happening won’t hurt anything. If something bigger happens and she does have to go to HR (hopefully won’t), OR if there is a class action suit against them in the future that you might want to join, the info could be useful. Just type em in your computer as you are sitting there listening to them…</p>
<p>I disagree with the ''boys will be boys" thinking. Immature boys will be immature, mature men will respect their co-workers and their friends. I work with a lot of men, in a lot of different settings. Farmers, construction workers, road crews, garbage men. It is the rare man who will tell a dirty joke, make a sexist comment, etc. I think perhaps it is because I work in very rural Iowa where kids are still taught to treat other people with respect. The only time I can remember a guy making anything like a sexist comment directed towards me, I didn’t have to say a thing. His co-worker corrected him very quickly – told him that comment was out of line. It also helps that most the men I work with I know their mothers and they know I would tell her in a heartbeat if they misbehaved, or so they believe.</p>
<p>We have an open floor plan. My direct supervisor (former Marine, male) is standing at the wall beside me, and is involved in a conversation diagonally across my workspace with another coworker (martial artist, male) who’s standing behind me, at the open side of my workspace. They have a very long conversation about how, in foreign countries, it’s perfectly socially acceptable to treat women terribly. They continue with this conversation, matter-of-factly and pointedly reiterating the points… “socially acceptable”… “treat the women terribly”… giving examples for about five minutes, as I sit there in silence, trying to ignore. It’s impossible that they haven’t noticed that I’m incredibly uncomfortable.</p>
<p>Were they saying that they approved of that behavior, that they didn’t understand why it wasn’t acceptable here? I don’t understand the situation.</p>
<p>*Completely oblivious to my sarcasm, my coworkers chuckle and say, “Well, yeah!” Another coworker says, “If you wear something like that into a LOCKER ROOM, you HAVE to expect that that sort of thing is going to happen.” They got wrapped up in their conversation, which turned to sports, and then they left to go to lunch.
*</p>
<p>It sounds like you need a break, because frankly I think you are overreacting to what other people say in their conversation- unless I am missing that something was directed to you personally.</p>
<p>I*'m amazed at the number of peopl who think the behavior of the men are acceptable. It is disrespectful to the OP. *</p>
<p>Im amazed at the number of people who think a woman is such a sensitive plant, that they cannot tolerate any speech that does not portray them always in a positive light.</p>
<p>Ive worked in construction- there is a lot of hazing which this sounds like to be a mild version of- it is going away- but it is still there & not limited to treatment of women.
<a href=“http://www.uwosh.edu/filmandhistory/documentary/labor/hammering.php[/url]”>http://www.uwosh.edu/filmandhistory/documentary/labor/hammering.php</a></p>