<p>My first job out of college was as a production supervisor in the body shop of a truck manufacturing plant. I was the only female around! I put up with a few things at first, because I was young & dumb. Eventually, I found ways to put a stop to things through a blend of humor and straightforward “stop the b.s.” discussions with the men who said/did things that were not appropriate. Some needed education … some needed to know I wouldn’t put up with it. I did not have to go to management, but I would have if necessary. I found that I was able to talk to them one-on-one & get them to stop.</p>
<p>I do remember a young lady who came to do some consulting work in the plant. She was from a company known for requiring a certain dress code, and she came to work in a skirted suit & heels … not really appropriate for the environment, but expected by her employer. She was on the receiving end of catcalls as she walked through the plant. Unfortunately, she never spoke to those who harassed her … instead, she chose to complain to her employer as a first step. She had a right to do this, but I believe she should have tried to handle it first. She had a lot of trouble getting folks to do anything more than what they HAD to do for her after her complaints. Again, she was within her rights to complain, but from my own experience I think she may have been able to stop the harassment by confronting her harassers … and she may have gained their respect in the process (I know I did).</p>
<p>Aibarr, if you are not comfortable at work you have a right to complain. Step one is to let those who make you uncomfortable know what it is they are doing that makes you uncomfortable & what you would like to see them do/not do to remedy the situation. Step two is to go to management with specific instances. Step three is to go to human resources if management fails to remedy the situation. If all else fails, you will need to decide: Do I file charges (EEOC) or do I find a new job? Only you can decide which choice is best for you.</p>
<p>If you take the advice of people who are suggesting you document or start harassment claims…Just be careful OP. Characterizing the males (ex-marine and martial artist) as you did in your original post would not be an appropriate way to begin describing this situation to a mediator. I have no doubt you felt “uncomfortable” but you also didn’t walk away. Just sayin…</p>
<p>I hesitate to comment on the specifics of the situation, since the law is the law. While I might not have a problem with what aibarr experienced, if she feels uncomfortable she has a right to pursue the issues with management. I put up with some things others might not put up with because, frankly, they didn’t bother me. For example, there was a calendar with VERY scantily-clad women in one of the employee’s workspaces. I COULD have complained and he WOULD have had to remove the calendar. It didn’t bother me; I figured it went with the territory, considering I was in a male-dominated area. I would have been within my rights to complain, though. </p>
<p>I guess what I am saying is that even if we feel it “goes with the territory,” if it violates sexual harassment policies, one can complain & should be able to expect the complaint to be taken seriously.</p>
<p>My last 3 companies and my current one don’t allow employees to post sensitive pictures related to sex, political and religious statements,… in office. In the case of the OP, I am not sure the wording alone out of context can explain much. There are other aspects involved: the tone, the look, the intention, the pattern,… However it’s always wise for supersivors not to say things that lead to misunderstanding.</p>
<p>It’s not only victims of harassment can make complaints. Co-workers who witness harassment can also file complaints.</p>
<p>Younghoss - I objected in having strippers at work place. I chose not to participate, but didn’t tell them that I was disgusted by it. I knew if I told them that I thought it was degrading to women, then they would have used it to taunt me. Only by showing it was no matter to me that they left me alone. It’s like on the playground, if people knew you didn’t like being called a baby, guess what they would do?</p>
<p>We shouldn’t have to put up with harassment at work place. We also have sexual harassment course at work, we are required to take it every year. I know how many times you are allowed to ask a co-worker out before it becomes a harassment. Every once in a while I would hear a woman jokingly say, “Where is HR?” or “I object to this conversation.” often, people would stop at that point.</p>
<p>Honestly, men or women discussing a recent news item really isn’t creating an unsafe workplace. Even if they have an opinion that you don’t agree with. The exception is if you dress like the reporter, then that might be a bad sign.</p>
<p>Frankly, the men were right. It is a two way street. The style in which you dress affects how men treat you. Had the reporter walked in wearing a business suit, it is highly unlikely she would have had the same response. </p>
<p>I don’t think that either wearing outrageous outfits or making inappropriate gestures/noises/speech toward women who do is right. But if guys aren’t allowed to utter catcalls at a women who is dressed provactively, then the women shouldn’t be allowed to dress provactively either. </p>
<p>It’s no different at the construction site. You want the men to listen to you, you don a hardhat, wear jeans, and a long sleeve shirt. Flip flops and a miniskirt at the construction site probably won’t be very effective.</p>
<p>There are laws about what consitutes harassment, what doesn’t constitute harassment is pretty gray and can involve such things as teasing which can easily be misconstrued. Many companies will move a worker to different areas and speak with all parties involved as a first step to a serious charge and as a step to begin the rigorous process of determining whether the allegation is credible and substantiable. Blantant disregard for written company policy (no questionable posters, questionable e-mails) can be delt with swiftly. The depth and breadth of a harrassment investigation is thorough. There are three parties at risk, the worker who is alleging, the worker or workers involved in the harassment and the company.</p>
<p>I’m sorry the message I’m trying to get across isn’t clear. While Oldfort’s personal opinion of strippers in the workplace is now clear to me, that doesn’t change the principles involved. I had misunderstood her opinion based on what she told us she said at the time.
And that misunderstanding beautifully demonstrates the heart of my message.</p>
<p>If I had been your co-worker back then, and I had been the one that asked you to chip in $, but you declined saying- you had no interest in F strippers, but maybe men…
Well I sure would have gotten the impression you had no objection. How could I think otherwise? I’m no mindreader. We now see your words were very different than your feelings. I understand your choice of words may very well have been the best course of action for you, but that isn’t my message.</p>
<p>Imagine if they had hired a stripper, what if you decided you were offended? You go to a boss? You go to H.R?
Picture a meeting with superiors where you explain you were offended by the female, but then it comes to light that you had expressed no objection when asked to donate, and even more, had hinted you’d be interested if it were a male rather than a F! You’d be laughed out of the office, maybe worse if they felt you had deliberately made a false claim.
I’m not trying to pick on you, but to use your example to show a broader message.
Now I’m not saying had that happened you would/wouldn’t have been offended. I’m not saying that even if you had been offended, you’d have reported it. What I’m saying here is that your words then indicated you had no objection, and you’d have no credibility if you had objected after the dance. This “what if” shows the point I’ve been trying to make that if a person objects, they need to say so, otherwise people will think there is no objection.
If it is reasonable to assume they have no objection, then the behavior can continue. If a person doesn’t object to the behavior, then it isn’t harrassment.</p>
<p>To use Oldfort’s latest example- If I ask Alice out for dinner Friday, and she says- No, but how about Saturday? That isn’t inappropriate. It isn’t harrassment. And that is essentially what Oldfort did with strippers yrs ago when she suggested she’d be open to consider a male dancer but not a female. One final clarification- the point isn’t her personal opinion on strippers, nor is it wheter strippers are appropriate in any workplace; the message is that if we are not clear on what we mean we cannot rightly complain about the results.</p>
<p>Younghoss, it would not have matter what I said back then, they would have hired a stripper no matter how clear my message was. I had no intention of reporting it to anyone. I conveniently had a meeting on a different floor when the stripper came. If I had made a big deal out of it, I would have become a target. It was over 20 years ago, a lot has changed.</p>
<p>younghoss- You are incorrect in many respects. The burden is NOT on the female to object. There can be a hostile work environment (I’m not saying this WAS one- I don’t have enough facts) without an objection from the employee who feels uncomfortable. I’ve defended these cases for many years, and the female usually claims to be afraid of retaliation (which is also illegal and a main focus of EEOC these days) or other consequences.</p>
<p>It wasn’t quite strippers, but around 1990 I was working in an office of a large consulting firm with about 400 people in it. We had an all-office meeting, and the guy (a senior manager, not a partner) who organized the meeting had a cheerleader/dance line (all women) come in as part of the official meeting. Sort of a kickoff. Mortifying to pretty much all of the women in the room (about 30% women, I would guess). We all spent the 10 minutes or so that they were up front staring at the floor, the ceiling, anywhere else…</p>
<p>I never had much respect for the guy who organized it again because I thought it showed such poor judgement. Never heard any office scuttlebutt around it, either, but we never had any “entertainment” anything like that again. But the office culture was definitely that if you complained, you would not get any decent assignments and would be labeled as hard to work with. They had no qualms about letting people go who didn’t “fit their culture”, and challenging the boys will be boys mentality definitely would have fit that description. Every partner was male, and now that I think about it, I think at that time every senior manager was. So the top 25-30 people in the office were all male.</p>
<p>Easy for you to say, younghoss, that women should object. But in a lot of these situations, men have the power (and are the majority of the workers around you as well). I do think it is better in most workplaces than it used to be. But I would hope that every guy who reads this thread gives some hard thought to whether they ever contribute to women’s discomfort even though the women aren’t saying so, or ignore behavior from other guys that they might speak up about.</p>
<p>I see a cheerleader squad kicking off a staff meeting a very pointless activity…(some say that about staff meetings in general).</p>
<p>But I don’t see how that mortifying at all unless they were wearing inappropriate outfits. Cheer and dance squads tend to be all women and many women go to shows to watch cheer and dance squads. Without more information, that’s not necessarily sexist or inappropriate.</p>
<p>Yes, but some women are in position to fire some of those men now.:)</p>
<p>The situation had improved some what, but it can still be uncomfortable for women sometimes. I am certainly not advocating for women to roll over and play dead. I have 2 daughters who will be entering the work force soon. I talk to them often about setting boundaries, and not to let men take advantage of them at work. </p>
<p>In all my years at work, men have flirted and maybe said few inappropriate things in front of me, but I don’t feel like I was sexually harassed, at least nothing I couldn’t have handled.</p>
<p>YIKES! No wonder you are feeling tired. That is a monumental task you’ve undertaken. Admirable, greatly needed, but monumental. </p>
<p>From what you said in your post, I gather it is not about the incidents per se, it is about a feeling you have that others might resent you for your different approach to management. </p>
<p>My only suggestion is to be careful using humor, and avoid sarcasm at all costs. Sarcasm just makes people defensive and thus less likely to have a good conversation about things that matter. </p>
<p>When I was a psych intern many years ago, I had the deepest respect for my mentor. He was a pioneer in the field and very well known. He was the best teacher I ever had. At some point, however, he made comments that made me uncomfortable. I gathered up my courage and when he did it again, I told him gently and without any anger, “Please don’t say things like that, it really makes me uncomfortable.” He responded by saying that he was only teasing and I should be able to take joke. I said he might be right, but I repeated what I said. </p>
<p>Things were a little cool after that, but he went on to write me the most beautiful letter when he retired. Now, the reason my situation worked out was because at heart, he was a great person. </p>
<p>In your situation, are there any guys who are approachable? One who you could appeal to their better nature? One that you could say something to after one of these incidents, telling him you feel uncomfortable. </p>
<p>As for changing the whole industry, you may want to cut yourself a little slack and just celebrate tiny advancements!!</p>
<p>OP I think those guys were hazing you. Teasing you. It could be considered harrassment, but I think they were testing you to see how you would play it. How about standing up and saying “Thank g=d I live in the good ol’ USA.” Then pick up a tampon and stride purposely to the ladies’ room. (Tampons seem to freak men out!) LOL.</p>
<p>But if a woman waves around, and talks to a man about her personal hygiene, this might make the man feel uncomfortable with her sex-specific products, and then the woman might be considered as guilty as a man making the other “uncomfortable”.
I hope that suggestion was only made in jest.</p>
<p>I don’t think ANY reporters should be allowed in the locker rooms. I’ve said that to several people this week. That solves the problem and if I ran the team I would have announced that as soon as this woman’s story hit the media.</p>
<p>I second this. I’ve also worked in male-dominated fields and have never been met with a lewd comment–but have met many mature, respectful men. “Boys will be boys” is an insult to men. More like “boors will be boors.”</p>
<p>Aibarr, if you’re close to getting your license, I’d get it and find a better workplace. That one sounds toxic.</p>