Uncomfortable at Work

Parent Cafe
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<p>Just to respond a little…</p>

<p>Thank heavens, I’m incredibly well-respected for the work that I do. I’ve been in the department for about a year and have rocketed up the ranks (might provoke a little resentment, but the people who would be resentful are the ones who are actively providing the rocket fuel… “We’ve got to get you through management training as soon as possible,” my superior said).</p>

<p>I have no intention of even breathing the word “harassment” unless someone corners and grabs my chest. There’s no way I would go to HR with something like this, water-cooler talk. I’d be branded with a scarlet “H,” I’d torpedo my career. I’ve worked very hard to be thick-skinned, to bounce, to retaliate with humor. Most days, the kidding is overt, and I’m “one of the boys,” and it’s okay. It’s when it turns from kidding or tweaking towards an undercurrent of true misogyny, true distaste for women, that makes my stomach turn sour and makes me feel like I’m going to end up paranoid of my colleagues someday. The situations where this sort of thing happens are subtle, not easily described in a post, but like pornography, even though I can’t define these undercurrents of hostility, I know it when I’m around it.</p>

<p>And that sucks, because it messes with your head. I know it’s there, clear as day what their sentiments are and what they’re doing, but on the surface, as described using words and disregarding gut instincts, it seems fairly innocuous. The individual situations don’t occur in a vacuum, either… Those are just the two most recent situations; I try not to file them away or dwell on them.</p>

<p>Most days, I can handle the crap I’m dealt, and it’s no big deal. Most days, I’m able to shake it off and tell them they’re being jerks when they’re being jerks, and they’ll go back to, for example, giving me crap for being anal retentive about my clean desk, and everything’ll be good.</p>

<p>Some days, though, the true colors come out and really shake me up, in ways that I can’t really articulate. Yesterday was one of those days. It bothers me that I see that I’m starting to wear thin. Some day I’ll get out or I’ll burn out, but I hate that something so stupid and wrong will eventually get the better of me and drive me from what I’m passionate about. As I told my husband, it’s an unsolvable problem, and it demands that some day I’ll have to compromise on my career-- I’ll either have to continue dealing with this sort of thing in the larger firms or I’ll have to give up working on the really fantastic projects.</p>

<p>I guess my point is that this bites. There’s not really a solution.</p>

<p>Don’t think I’m not grateful for this job. I am. I’m overwhelmed by the grace of having gotten this far in my career, of having found a loving husband, of having purchased our first home. I just wish I didn’t feel like I were giving up some irreplaceable essence of myself for the benefit of a paycheck and health insurance, though.</p>

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<p>It is very sad that you feel so helpless and stuck at an environment you dislike so much. For what? You are too young to feel so trapped. Life is too short. There are other jobs out there where you could feel better about yourself. I personally don’t see the situation as being that big of a deal, but I am not you. You need to do what would make you happy. If my daughter said to me what you wrote here, I would tell her to leave and I would tell her to make sure her next job is a good fit.</p>

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<p>Then you’re guilty of the same offence as the men the OP complained about, along with the majority of the female posters that knee-jerk agreed with her.</p>

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<p>

Don’t think that - it’s not really true. There are companies where the environment isn’t as hostile and is more professional (i.e. more focused on the business than conversations about stupid sensationalistic stories like this one) than what you described. A lot of this comes down to ‘corporate culture’. The culture truly can be different at different companies and it’s related to what the company will tolerate, not just what’s legal or not, how well and what they teach the managers and employees, how they recognize potential leaders, how they deal with issues like the ones you describe, etc.</p>

<p>Hopefully you just had a bad day and the events you describe just seemed worse as a result than they really otherwise would be (to you). Although it was irritating to you, it sounds like your best bet might be to focus on your upward mobility there, which sounds like it’s going quite well, and maybe nipping a few of these conversations in the bud but sometimes telling them to please take their topic elsewhere because you really don’t want to have to listen to it and you’re trying to get work done. Most people hearing this will tolerate it because they know they’re not acting professionally and they now know their banter isn’t being well received. If they can’t tolerate it well then oh well, they’re not worth worrying about anyway.</p>

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<p>If the overall culture of the company and management is one of respect, eventually it may all work out. If you’ll be working with this group for the rest of your career, then you might want to consider your options. A good person can deal with the most unpleasant situations for just so long before it just tears you apart. I can look back over 25 years and wonder how on earth I lasted in a certain job for as long as I did. </p>

<p>I was finally able to find a senior manager/mentor who saw through the uh, stuff, and it was like the lights went on and angels started singing. It turned out that I was not imagining it all…I had good reason to feel the way I did. It took til the one particular manager and his cronies to retire before I threw away the file I’d kept, kept in case someone <em>else</em> filed a complaint (no way that I could do it).
You’re right. The overt you can deal with. A joking response, a “I’m trying to work here, can you take it to the break room”, a heavy sigh, and a good glass of wine when you get home. and you can start all over the next day.<br>
It’s the subtle that you have to worry about. It will suck your spirit, your drive, your passion if you aren’t careful.
I knew that this was where I wanted to stay with and fortunately the company was large enough for me to get away from the toxic area. Right now I am debating making a change and the hard part is that I’ll have to leave the greatest group of colleagues ever. Having people you like and trust can make the dreariest job the best. </p>

<p>Not much advice, but I wanted to say that I understand. Get that license, keep your passion. Don’t let things fester. There are lots of companies out there building great things who need and want great people. If this isn’t the place for you, I hope the next place is.</p>

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<p>ailibarr. hugs. I believe you are a member of SWE , if you aren’t you should be. Your insticts are correct and you are tired. Hope you can take a mental health day.</p>

<p>One thing all engineers seem to have trouble learning is not to fall on the sword for the company, it rarely gets the praise it deserves. And that applies to men and women equally.</p>

<p>I got frustrated with SWE and the new crops of girls coming out of college who didn’t “believe” harassment still would be a problem. Time after time, five years later, they were back at meetings asking how to deal with some sort of covert or overt hostility. I just wish they could not be so surprised, because that is part of the pain. </p>

<p>I agree, there is not a lot to do about it where you are now. Get licensed and go work for yourself. You will note that many many women company owners started their companies so they could stop putting up the the crud being dished by the lame brains… </p>

<p>But do take care of yourself! Engineering is the best!</p>

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<p>Haven’t read the whole thread, I apologize if this has already been said.</p>

<p>Their inappropriate conversation upsets you, understandably. But isn’t this a place of work? Aren’t people supposed to be…um…working? Open floor plan or not, if a group of co-workers surround me and yammer on and on about yesterday’s game or halter tops, an immediate and appropriate response would be “Excuse me, I have a great deal of work that I’m trying to complete. Would you mind taking your conversation elsewhere?”</p>

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<p>It’s a tight line to walk sometimes, knowing when to say nothing, or something humorous, and when to complain.</p>

<p>I’ve worked in a male dominated field for over 25 years. My first job, I had a supervisor that told me I was taking a man’s job, and he was going to do everything he could to get me out. That was overtly hostile, and I went to HR. I had already put in for a transfer, so that went through and I was given a ‘bonus’.</p>

<p>At my next job, I’ve encountered situations, but nothing of the overtly hostile type. Just clueless male humor. And I’ve found that countering with my own humor has worked tremendously. I get my point across, and there are no hard feelings. In fact, I think I am respected for it. Those that have gone the HR route for similar situations have found they received less cooperation and respect.</p>

<p>I did have to go to HR when I was pregnant with my first. I don’t think they had workplace guidelines on how to deal with a pregnant woman in the workplace, which included some hazardous areas. He was not handling it well, and I asked HR to help with some policies so that everything was clear.</p>

<p>And I agree with the poster that said sometimes other females in the workplace can be worse. I’ve had woman have huge fights about the placement of a <em>recycle bin</em>, and endless passive aggressive misery.</p>

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<p>OP it was not long ago that every woman in every workplace had to fight the battle every day and that being a woman in an engineering role was simply not heard of. No surprise, I suppose, that you still have to be in a gender battle. Thank you for continuing to love your work and for finding a path through the weirdness. It is not easy at all. It wasn’t easy in the 60’s and 70’s and 80’s either. Thank heavens for all the women who pushed through. The struggle continues on a low simmer but it is there.</p>

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<p>aibarr - I think you need to find out whether your company has any policy, guideline on workplace ethics. You can ask HR or your supervisor. You don’t accuse anyone but asking this may give them a hint. Small companies may not have any policy. If they don’t have one then may be it’s time for them to have one.</p>

<p>Good employers usually want to have conflicts resolved inside the company. They don’t want complaints to go outside without their knowledge.</p>

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<p>What men like at work–a few could snappy comebacks and a few well placed 4 letter words. What they don’t like–women who can’t stand up for themselves and cry to mgt. There are women that get along with men anywhere anytime and others who never figure that out.</p>

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<p>What women like at work – men who are mature and professsional and treat everyone in the workplace with respect. What the don’t like – men who think the world revolves around them, so they can just be their sloppy inmature selves.</p>

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<p>^ snappy comeback noted</p>

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<p>aibarr, here are a couple of hard learned lessons that I have come by:</p>

<p>Keep your eyes on the prize. Get your license. You know that saying about be nice to a nerd as one day you will work for one. Well, once day these guys will be working for you. But for now, let it be water on a duck’s back. It’s hard. Very hard. But largely unfixable. Sorry. You are an engineer. You want to fix things. I don’t think this can be fixed.</p>

<p>Use the earplugs, or noise canceling headphones. The message will be less about the content that that you are actually getting SOME WORK DONE. Which implicitly, they are not.</p>

<p>If someone tries to engage me on the locker room stuff or something like that, I just sigh and say I had a bet as to how long it was going to take for you guys to say something about that and shake my head. At that point the message is - 1) you are predictable, 2) you hardly shock me as I knew you were going to say that, 3) you are so tedious that the only way to make something interesting out of this is to wager with someone else about how juvenile you will be and how quickly. </p>

<p>I hear two things in your assessment. First they are either completely clueless and intruding on your space, or more likely they are being low-level aggressive in needling you with conversations that are not harassment but are annoying. The earplugs/headphone could help with that.</p>

<p>Second, while these guys go out out their way to “be heard” it sounds as though you are frustrated that your “voice” is not heard as clearly as theirs. After years of practice I have found that if there is someone else who gets it (a grounded guy, another woman, one of your SWE buddies) anyone who can eye roll with you and nod when they get started, this will go a long way. For me, the feeling of being alone in the situation is the worst part. As soon as someone else can ping you with a text that says someone like (good grief!), it feels much better.</p>

<p>Good luck and get the license. And then get in charge!</p>

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<p>25 years (jeez I’m old) in the engineering biz here. I’ve worked for E&C companies and even in a double-wide trailer converted to an office in East Houston. </p>

<p>Delicate Arch beat me to my best weapon - headphones!! I’ve used my share of snappy comebacks too and waaay more patience than I knew I had. There are some guys who aren’t worth the effort. Happily, none of them were ever my boss, so I could just keep some distance.</p>

<p>The only other hint I’d give is to interrupt their chatting with “hey Joe, did you reply to Customer XX on that question they sent?”…which usually makes the others uncomfortable and the group will disperse. If your area is a “meeting place” possibly ask to relocate to a back corner? </p>

<p>Good luck…lots of deep breaths…it’s not worth getting upset over. Headphones ON…music UP!!!</p>

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<p>Crying to management that a couple of guys were discussing a recent news event is a really good way to tick people off.</p>

<p>(I’m a man). I once worked at a 4 person office with one woman. The manager gave himself his own bathroom and the three guys and one woman shared the other bathroom. For those of you that clean guys bathrooms, you know that guys don’t have very good aim and pee a little on the floor. It’s gross but it happens.</p>

<p>Well, the bathroom was cleaned once a month. We guys didn’t notice the floor got dirty between cleanings but the woman did because she didn’t want her clothes to touch the peed on floor. Rather than talk to us, describe what the concern was, and ask if we could try to keep it cleaner, she complained to management. Management had us take a formal course in potty training (actually called bathroom ettiquete) and really came down hard on us.</p>

<p>The problem was all of us were nice people and none of us would have wanted the woman to feel uncomfortable. Simply letting us know (or one of us know) directly would have fostered a good working together attitude. But by running to management, who in turn yelled at us, created a us-guys versus her attitude. The woman (who struggled with other aspects of her job) left a few weeks later.</p>

<p>The takeaway lesson is that her shyness and reluctance to talk directly with us created a huge problem because she went behind her back. We’d all be willing to figure out a better solution…and the better solution is to make sure that we leave the bathroom clean AND to have it cleaned more often. Once a month is unacceptable for cleaning a bathroom and especially one used by both genders.</p>

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<p>aibarr, I’m sorry you’re being put in this position. I think the men are behaving unprofessionally. </p>

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<p>I have noticed that young women tend to especially fall victim to this line of thinking. Yes, it’s entirely possible that they didn’t notice. Or even if they did notice, you must speak up. That’s on you and it’s very important that you make yourself clear, not rely on other people noticing non-verbal cues.</p>

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<p>A work bathroom that was only cleaned once a month? That is GROSS for either gender – trust me, the ladies room would be in bbbaaaddd shape by then, too. She should have complained about the cleaning schedule! Maybe that is what she did, and management chose to make it about your aim.</p>

<p>But this is another example of guys just wanting to be their “sloppy immature selves” again. If you pee on the floor anywhere, WIPE IT UP. No matter who is going to come in after you, men or women. Sheesh.</p>

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<p>H has good aim, as far as I have noticed. But, the older he gets, the less he sees. He woke up one morning and needed reading glasses, which he forgets on a pretty regular basis. However, this does have the advantage of allowing him to believe I look younger than I do! Hah. There are some things in nature which are kind.</p>

<p>Guys don’t always see things.</p>

<p>Actually, they’ve done studies of men and women reading the emotions of people based on thier facial expressions and body language, and for whatever reason, the way the left and right brains are connected differently in women and men they now believe, men are much worse at this than women. Being direct with guys is pretty effective, I’ve noticed, and then, if they are really just teasing you? Teasing them back the way you would your brother or father also works. </p>

<p>Of course, just for the sake of argument, I will say if racist comments were constanty tossed around an office, I don’t think people would counsel others not to complain to HR…(You can ignore me if you want. I may just be stirring up trouble. :p)</p>

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<p>Sorry money, but you are a slob. It is not up to the woman to tell you that you are a slob. You are supposedly an adult. If you can’t pee in the toilet, wipe up after yourself EVERYTIME.</p>