<p>I absolutely agree with you, mom2collegekids.</p>
<p>aibarr, I highly recommend this book with not-so-printable title, “The No A**hole Rule: Building a Civilized Workplace and Surviving One That Isn’t” by Robert Sutton, a Stanford professor. While it does not directly address the type of situation you were talking in your OP, it addresses bullying in the workplace and how to deal with it.</p>
<p>I’ve actually read it! It’s an excellent book. My uncle, a cool guy who’s been an executive-level manager of engineering-types for years, recommended it to me a couple of weekends ago, and I found it in the Rice library and sat down to read it cover-to-cover. It’s a quick read.</p>
<p>Kind of bummed me out, because it strongly indicates that the situation isn’t going to change… The coping mechanism it recommends is just floating with the current and not letting the bullying affect you. Nolite te bastardes carborundorum. Kind of seems like an insular way to live, though, and I know it’ll be unhealthy for me to emotionally freeze myself like that on a long-term basis.</p>
<p>Today’s going okay. My zen-ness is holding so far. (Ommmmm…)</p>
<p>post 61, pg 5 airbarr:
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<p>airbarr: Hugs!! I don’t have any advice but am concerned you are describing a situation where you are beginning to perhaps feel physically unsafe? Especially in conjunction with the more recent post describing your hs experiences. I hope I am misreading this.</p>
<p>Has anyone yet pointed out that sometimes one of the differences in how the sexes perceive offensive remarks or behavior, whether innocent or purposeful, is that women do have to be more concerned with physical safety?</p>
<p>If I am perceiving some sort of physical danger, it’s likely just psychological remnants of previous experiences. I’ve considered that… I really have had some lousy experiences in the past, but I think that if anyone here were to physically threaten me, they’d have to deal with some really, really angry other-coworkers who wouldn’t hesitate to beat them down. The good thing about guys from Texas is that they’re darned chivalrous… :)</p>
<p>But yes, I think I’m definitely conditioned to perceive that my physical safety is threatened when I sense this kind of hostility. It isn’t that I’m fabricating a false danger, either–I have, in the past, had very real cause to perceive a physical threat. I was physically restrained a couple of times during some of the instances in high school, and it really shook me up to be overpowered like that. Since I still run across some completely unenlightened people in the field who think that a woman really doesn’t have any right to set foot on a construction site, it’s best that I not let my guard down. My nature is to be naive, so if I’m not a little bit alert, I know I’m going to get stupid about keeping myself safe.</p>
<p>I do need to take that into account, though. It’s not good or bad, and I don’t intend to imply that because of my past experiences I’m over-sensitive, or that the guys aren’t being schmoes, or that I shouldn’t feel this way when I perceive subtle hostility, but objectively, it’s a factor to consider in the overarching equation.</p>
<p>If I may answer your q, alh, post 103, No. At least, no mention of it until after you suggested the topic. To the best of my recollection a woman’s physical safety hasn’t been specifically addressed in this thread, although the term harrassment has been occassionally used, and so has “hostile work environment” but neither of those 2 in the OP. I am guessing it is because the OP gave no indication whatsoever that she felt any worse than “uncomfortable” with the topic of discussions in her workplace. Here again I am guessing, but though a woman’s safety is a genuine concern that topic is far far different than the Op’s concerns expressed here.</p>
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<p>^^This is from my first post in this thread, where it all started.</p>
<p>So, no, younghoss, a feeling of “not being safe” is something I’ve mentioned from right off the bat.</p>
<p>Aibarr, as a Texas real estate attorney, I am on the fringes of the world in which you find yourself. I have no answers, but selfishly hope you hang in there and change things.</p>
<p>Aibarr, although I’m well aware that others may disagree, I hope you have a concealed carry permit. I do, and it has made a great positive difference in my interactions with certain individuals on some construction sites. I’ve only worn the gun twice in such situations, but have found ways to reference my proficiency with it in “casual” (actually, very well rehearsed) conversations. After which, several men who previously behaved badly (making not so subtle threats, for example) suddenly backed down. They were clearly not used to dealing with someone who responded from a position of strength.</p>
<p>I’ve never had to use vulgar language, make a scene or throw a fit. Instead, the madder I get the calmer I sound. It positively unnerves some people when they expect a big emotional reaction and instead hear my voice get lower and softer, my words more measured and my tone just slightly amused sounding.</p>
<p>Both my D and dh have had success using humor or apparent amusement in their workplaces. In her case, sometimes just chuckling and saying that she’s glad she knows the guy doesn’t <em>really</em> mean what he just said has enabled D to deal with some socially clueless men at her company. It puts them on notice that what they said was unacceptable without causing them to feel foolish (and then possibly going on a verbal attack.)</p>
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<p>:eek:</p>
<p>Well, that was one option I hadn’t really considered. (I just received my updated Texas Driver’s License in the mail today; I’m slightly surprised that a standard-issue Texas Concealed Carry Permit didn’t automatically arrive with it, ha ha…) </p>
<p>I have a friend with a concealed carry permit, and I’ve considered getting one for the simple reason that I feel it’s wise to be familiar with guns (particularly to know how to unload one, how to tell if one’s loaded, how to ensure that the safety is on…) and a concealed carry course would give me a certain degree of proficiency with them, and what you say makes sense, in terms of having it as a distinct “don’t mess with me” card to play. I sincerely doubt that I would ever actually carry a gun, and I’m not even certain that I’d ever actually purchase a gun, either. It’s something to consider, though.</p>
<p>One thing I <em>did</em> do, along those lines, was to take a souped-up self-defense course for women-- R.A.D., Rape Aggression Defense. More than just neutralizing an attacker, the course teaches you how to carry yourself and be aware of your surroundings so that you avoid trouble. It also gives you an opportunity to try out your butt-kicking skills on an attacker, typically a male police officer in full padding. You wear street clothes, something you’d normally wear when you’re out and about. He attacks you in various realistic manners, whispering unsettling things at you, and you TAKE HIM OUT. It was very empowering, and it gave me the sort of confidence-in-how-I-carry-myself that I think the concealed carry permit might give you. Walking around as though you could, at any moment, rip off a person’s foot and beat them with it, gives people pause. (It helps that I’m 5’-7", a descendant of stout German and Norwegian farmhands, and that my voice carries for miles.)</p>
<p>I will contemplate the concealed carry permit, albeit hesitantly.</p>
<p>
I don’t know about its acceptance in the construction industry but that would clearly get one fired at many companies. Regardless of the CC permit, many (I assume most) companies have their own rules not allowing firearms on the premises and I expect this could include construction sites. Veiled or not so veiled threats to co-workers wouldn’t go down well either.</p>
<p>Don’t even attempt this while at work without knowing the company’s rules and even then it’s not a good idea. If you seriously think your life is being threatened you need to make a case and bring it to management and HR or find employment elsewhere where it’s not such a hostile environment. Carrying off-site on your own time is a different story.</p>
<p>aibarr is quite right. I had forgotten the part that she felt she might be in danger because men spoke near her of how poorly women were treated in other countries and because men near her discussed the clothing worn and the rude comments made to the sexiest reporter in Mexico while she was interviewing in a men’s locker room.
The part that stuck in my mind is that you felt uncomfortable.
You did express a concern for your safety in the OP, and my apologies for not remembering the dangerous environment of your job.
Best wishes for a safer environment either from improvement where you are, or a newer, safer job.</p>
<p>Oh please, if you ever feel that unsafe where you live or work that you have to carry a gun, then you should get the heck out of there. </p>
<p>I probably live in one of more dangerous places in Americas and most men have their nice wifes stay at home. I have never felt the need for a gun (or a weapon), and I tell those men (white or brown color) what to do.</p>
<p>Just because those men are clueless, sexist, and stupid, does not necessary make them rapist, or could possible cause any harm to OP.</p>
<p>Lets try to keep everything in perspective here.</p>
<p>U_dad is correct, at most firms, if anyone should come in with any weaper, it is ground for dismissal.</p>
<p>I was thinking about this thread while commuting today. There was a public radio segment on women starting to serve on submarines in the US Navy later this year. All I could think of was those poor women’s trousers in the pee on the floor the head (as I am pretty sure they won’t get a separate ladies room!). Seriously, those women are in for the types of scenarios we are discussing her times ten. And concealed carry is definitely not advisable on a submarine :)</p>
<p>Why does our society and legal system give females a pass on being crazy? </p>
<p>It really does.</p>
<p>And men to act like idiots.</p>
<p>toblin: when guys will be giving birth to half of the kids on the planet AND when we, women, will be making $1 per $1 earned by a male in the same profession/position… we will get off of our crazy horse.</p>
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<p>This dismissive attitude is part of the problem and part of the reason things don’t change. “Oh, nothing as obvious as boob-grabbing is occurring, so the atmosphere and actions making that woman uncomfortable must not exist. She’s just CRAAAZY!”</p>
<p>(“Jeeeez. Talk about over-sensitive… It’s not like I’m actually going out and lynching African-Americans. I’m just talking loudly about how it was socially acceptable to do so back in the day. Near this African-American coworker of mine. Who is sitting right here not saying anything.”)</p>
<p>Juuuuust crazy… </p>
<p>(And yes, my coworkers were discussing how it was acceptable in other countries to beat your women if they didn’t stay in their place, and that if they got really out-of-line, it was acceptable to kill them. Perfectly acceptable. Isn’t that weird, how acceptable it can be, to kill them, to beat them?)</p>
<p>If I was rattled by that, with one of them hanging over the wall of my cubicle and the other blocking the only way out, then obviously I’ve been drinkin’ the ol’ crazy juice again.</p>
<p>Addendum: Considered packing heat, but have ruled against it. I may be a Texan but I don’t have to be <em>that</em> Texan. I still plan on taking a gun safety course, but my severe distaste for firearms persists.</p>
<p>Plus, per above, I’m crazy, so… Probably should say no to the whole gun thing.</p>
<p>Many years ago before “hostile workplace” laws were put in place, I was regularly subjected to having to see nearly naked (see thru clothing/tiny bikinis) female posters on the walls of well educated men’s offices! You could literally see the breasts/nipples of these girls…nothing left to the imagination.</p>
<p>But…when I put up a Men of USC calendar of tan, shirtless men is regular swim trunks (so nothing indecent!), then men had a fit and I was told that I had to take my calendar down. It was only after I made a stink that they said that the men had to take down their posters. Geez.</p>
<p>The thing is, there are a lot of men who do not appreciate the frat boy office. They have wives, daughters, mothers working in the work place and they want them to be safe, happy and successful. They like the women working in the office, both personally and professionally. </p>
<p>When I first started in my position where I do a lot of hiring of work crews, my boss told me to never hire the contractor who came into a bid meeting and told a dirty joke. His thinking was not only he a dumbass, but he was the contractor who was likely to have half his work crew not show up Monday morning 'cause they got busted for drunk driving over the weekend.</p>