University of Michigan v. Notre Dame

College Search & Lists
21

"I find it fascinating that you say “rankings” are flawed, then base your own argument on academia-based “surveys”.

I referred to academia-based surveys in reference to establishing which university has a stronger reputation in academe, not in validating any rankings. I do not believe in rankings simply because no methodology can capture the essence of all universities equally. But in the context of establishing a university’s reputation in academia, an academia-based survey is pertinent, wouldn’t you agree? How else would you establish a university’s reputation in academia?

22

“But in the context of establishing a university’s reputation in academia, an academia-based survey is pertinent, wouldn’t you agree?“

It absoluely is true Alexandre. If one only looks at the statistics of the entering freshman class and not include academic reputation, then all elite public universities would be rated even lower at USNWR than they are now. To state that ND has more highly qualified students on a percentage basis than Michigan would not be a false statement. To state that ND is considered more prestigious than Michigan in academia is a false statement.

23

@Alexandre Peer opinions are subjective and, of course, subject to bias. Since I have - admittedly - “only 125” posts on CC I was able to find our prior conversation. For academia-based surveys, you quoted to me NRC (which focuses exclusively on doctorate programs), Times Higher Ed (which has a “world” ranking that puts Mich > ND but a “US College” ranking that puts ND > Mich, so not sure I understand that methodology) and QS (which ranks UMaryland over Emory and UMinnesota over Dartmouth, Vandy and ND, so I hope we can agree that’s flawed). To say rankings have flaws and peer surveys do not I believe is incorrect. Regardless, the bulk of the data available from Common Data Sets and several ranking services supports the opinion that ND is the better school, even if marginally so. At this point, I will agree to disagree with you and your cohort and bow out, in the hope that others have something different to offer to the OP. Good night to you.

24

I have them about even overall for undergrad academics:

  • Michigan is a little stronger academically (number of elite programs, academic rep, etc.) but...
  • Notre Dame has smaller classes

Unless you don’t like the Wolverines or the Michigan campus, I can’t see much sense in paying $50,000 more for a (more or less) equal alternative.

You could use that money for grad school, a house down payment, or any number of other worthwhile ways.

25

“Peer opinions are subjective and, of course, subject to bias.”

With thousands of opinions from mostly knowledgeable administrators, I’d say the peer assessment numbers at USNWR (for example) are about the only data that is completely trustworthy, since outliers would not significantly change scores . Private schools are well known to manipulate other figures to make themselves look better to USNWR,. A good example of that is not is Columbia not reporting data on 30% of its undergraduates who are in its school. These issues have been discussed ad nauseum here on CC.

26

“bulk of the data available from Common Data Sets and several ranking services supports the opinion that ND is the better school, even if marginally so.“

I believe that Common Data Sets pertain to the entering student body. They are not necessarily indicative of prestige in academia, which you indicated ND had over Michigan.

27

I can’t think of one academic area where ND trumps Michigan… Maybe theology? ND has a strong “brand” in the USA because of its historically good sports teams and stature as the nation’s most prominent Catholic U., but outside the USA, its reputation is much smaller…

28

Thank you everyone for your comments. It is a really tough decision. I found out recently that my net price at ND will go to about 6500$ which my family could reasonably afford. So if I chose ND I would have little to no debt now. To me it comes down to the ease of getting into grad school (law school) with a degree from ND and UMich and I have heard the “prestige” of the degree matters to some extent in this process. Does anyone have any comments about this specific comp.,/any insight?

29

Can you visit both? You can research and solicit opinions all day but nothing is better than visiting the schools and deciding which one to call home the next 4 years. Ask students while you’re there questions like - what things would they change if they could or whether they’ve had any regrets. And also nitpicky questions that will impact your student life, such as course registration (how easy is it to get the classes you want?) and the quality of the advising system (faculty adviser who guides you to take the classes that suit your academic interests). But really, at this point, it’s all about fit and you’re the only one who can make that call. Good luck deciding between 2 terrific options.

30

IBBer3466633, Michigan and Notre Dame will be equally respected by graduate school admissions. As I stated above, they are both exception undergraduate institutions. As such, you should go with your gut. Where do you feel you will be happiest? Research the schools thoroughly, and consider all angles, then make pick the one that makes most sense to you personally.

31

“For academia-based surveys, you quoted to me NRC (which focuses exclusively on doctorate programs), Times Higher Ed (which has a “world” ranking that puts Mich > ND but a “US College” ranking that puts ND > Mich, so not sure I understand that methodology) and QS (which ranks UMaryland over Emory and UMinnesota over Dartmouth, Vandy and ND, so I hope we can agree that’s flawed).”

waitingmomia, I agree that all rankings are flawed, including the ones you listed above. I have always maintained that they are flawed. But you seem confused with the concept of an institution’s “reputation in academia”. Reputation is opinion-based. As such, it cannot be wrong since its very premise is based on one’s opinion and does not claim to be factual or scientific. There is no right or wrong, as they are essentially opinion polls. Are those opinion polls accurate and should they matter? I suppose it depends on one’s perspective and aspirations. But in the context of establishing a university’s “reputation in academia”, it is the surest means to that end.

32

@Alexandre I am not confused about the concept of an institution’s “reputation in academia”. Perhaps you are confused re the point I was attempting to make

  1. Are all the rankings flawed? To some extent, as nothing that utilizes a subjective component is perfect. In what manner and to what degree is the subject of much debate, as I'm sure you know. Are they all flawed to a great degree and in the same manner, such that they are useless? In "my opinion", no. I'm guessing "your opinion" would be different. No one on this page is the be-all, end-all determinant of that question. It is up to the user to decide how to interpret and use the data, including the OP. In the end, every single ranking service I could find that releases a "top colleges" list - except the WSJ/THE "world" version I mentioned earlier - ranks Notre Dame over Michigan (including, confusingly, the WSJ/THE "US College" version). I don't believe that's just one big giant coincidence, error or conspiracy.
  2. The data (such as Common Data Sets) available about student populations and each university is what it is. Notre Dame is more selective in who it accepts, retains more of those students and graduates more of them on time in 4yrs.
  3. Regarding any confusion - you are correct, reputation cannot be "wrong" as it is opinion based. That does not mean that opinion surveys cannot be "flawed" by human bias, which of course exists in anything as subjective as opinion. My point to you was that you are the one who offered to me the NRC, WSJ/THE and QS as support of your argument that academia views Michigan superior to ND. I refuted your point then as I did last night. I don't believe those three things offer that proof for the reasons I stated in my last post.

So I have not yet seen you offer anything - other than your declaration - to prove that academia does indeed consider Michigan superior to Notre Dame. If such proof exists, please share it with the OP so that they can use the information along with rankings and other available data to reach their own conclusion. Everything I have said to OP regarding rankings and student/university data is easily verifiable for them online.

33
  1. There are thousands of universities in the US. Beyond Harvard, MIT, Princeton, Stanford and Yale, the next 20-30 universities in the nation are interchangeable depending in the methodology. Michigan and Notre Dame are ranked roughly within 10 spots of each other in most rankings.

“In the end, every single ranking service I could find that releases a “top colleges” list - except the WSJ/THE “world” version I mentioned earlier - ranks Notre Dame over Michigan (including, confusingly, the WSJ/THE “US College” version). I don’t believe that’s just one big giant coincidence, error or conspiracy.”

First of all, do not dismiss the THE ranking. It is the gold standard outside of the US, although like all rankings, it is extremely flawed. And contrary to your claim, there are several other college rankings that have Michigan ranked higher than Notre Dame in addition to QS and THE:

http://www.businessinsider.com/best-colleges-in-the-united-states-2016-8

http://www.thebestcolleges.org/rankings/top-50/

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/11/the-10-best-colleges-in-america.html

There are also rankings that rank Notre Dame higher than Michigan are the US News (10 spots higher among national universities), Forbes (6 spots higher among national universities) and THE College edition (2 spots higher among national universities) and Niche (6 spots higher among national universities.

Overall, given the fact that there are thousands of universities, I am not sure any of those rankings, all of which are flawed, establishes a clear advantage, even in the smallest way, in favor of Michigan or Notre Dame. As I stated previously, either one will provide the OP with an exceptional setting for an undergraduate education.

  1. "The data (such as Common Data Sets) available about student populations and each university is what it is. Notre Dame is more selective in who it accepts, retains more of those students and graduates more of them on time in 4yrs."

Notre Dame is not significantly more selective than Michigan. They admit and enroll similar quality students. Notre Dame places more emphasis on test scores, but 1-2 point average on the ACT or 40-60 point average on the SAT is negligible, especially when you consider the variety of programs at Michigan (Architecture, Nursing, Art, Music, Dance, Kinesiology etc…) and Michigan’s emphasis on school transcripts.

I am not sure 4 years graduation rates are very telling. Stanford’s 4 year graduation rate is lower than Michigan’s. Are we to assume that Michigan is better than Stanford as a result?

  1. "Regarding any confusion - you are correct, reputation cannot be "wrong" as it is opinion based. That does not mean that opinion surveys cannot be "flawed" by human bias, which of course exists in anything as subjective as opinion. My point to you was that you are the one who offered to me the NRC, WSJ/THE and QS as support of your argument that academia views Michigan superior to ND. I refuted your point then as I did last night. I don't believe those three things offer that proof for the reasons I stated in my last post."

The US News peer assessment score is proof enough as far as I am concerned. According to thousands of university presidents, provosts and deans over the past three decades, Michigan has maintained a peer assessment score of 4.4 or 4.5 while Notre Dame’s average peer assessment rating has hovered in the 4.0 to 4.1 range. You may not respect it, but it is what it is; a university’s undergraduate reputation according to academia.

34

Gotta love a good academic rivalry.
No idea on facts and rankings but anecdotally, I can tell you that everyone in my area is much more impressed with a Notre Dame grad over a Michigan grad. Good luck with whatever decision you make. You will be fine either way.

35

I agree bhs1978. The only statistic that matters here is 24-16-1. Go blue!

36

It’ll all be settled on the field Saturday September 1st when Michigan plays at Notre Dame to play their 1st football game of the 2018 season. :))

1 Like
37

Hehe! I can’t wait. It is too bad ND discontinued the series. The Michigan Notre Dame games are almost always entertaining.

38

“I can tell you that everyone in my area is much more impressed with a Notre Dame grad over a Michigan grad.”

It’s the opposite where I live.

1 Like
39

“I am not sure 4 years graduation rates are very telling. Stanford’s 4 year graduation rate is lower than Michigan’s. Are we to assume that Michigan is better than Stanford as a result?”

Schools that are very strong In STEM, especially engineering, will typically have lower four year graduation rates.

40

“Michigan has maintained a peer assessment score of 4.4 or 4.5 while Notre Dame’s average peer assessment rating has hovered in the 4.0 to 4.1 range.”

That shows the difference in academic prestige among those who really know. It is what it is.