<p>I have not opened S’s bedroom door in about 5 months because I can’t stand to look at the clutter all over the floor, other bed, dresser, etc. The only thing that gives me hope is that he knows that to leave home, he’ll have to clean his room, but considering that he hasn’t sent in one college app, perhaps his wish of leaving home is only a pipedream…</p>
<p>DrDrewsmom: I absolutely agree that there is fun and there are other motivations. I personally get an enormous amount of pleasure out of having COMPLETED my taxes but hate almost every minute of doing them… </p>
<p>My son responded extremely well in school to be asked to do way more than the standard homework, which he found mind-numbingly dull. (For example, we dropped him into AP bio rather than standard level bio; the teacher wanted him out for the first three weeks and then told him he could stay–he did quite well in the end.) There may indeed by inflexible teachers down the line, but your son may well have formed the habit of enjoying challenging work by then and will certainly be more mature. Go with what works right now, IMHO, rather than worrying about the future–you want your son to go to school with pleasure not dread.</p>
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<p>good point! I tend to worry about the future and you are right that I should concentrate more on what works now. thanks!! :)</p>
<p>DrDrewsMom–
You’re quite welcome. My family refers to me as the “designated worrier”–I do everyone’s worrying for them, AND I always worry prematurely and am trying to get out of the habit! Which may be why I recognize it in others.</p>
<p>You’ve got a four-day weekend, hopefully without homework. Enjoy it! Try not to nag/worry all weekend, to give yourself a break… (And reward yourself if it works.) </p>
<p>(Right now I am worrying about traffic tonight (when both kids drive home from Portland OR) and traffic tomorrow (when we drive for Thanksgiving dinner).)</p>
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Oh, I wish.</p>
<p>I’m a member of this club, by the way, and S#2 not only has homework due Tues. or Wed. after the weekend, but also roughly eight undone assignments which I was informed about at Parent Teacher Conferences this week, for which he has received zeros but for which he can achieve partial credit if he turns it all in on Monday. So far, the entire vacation has comprised making a list with him of the things everyone is still missing and forcing him to show me the results before checking off its completion, and refusing his plea to go to the movies with his friends this afternoon unless all boxes are checked. This kid is in fact brilliant and creative and his teachers love him and he has high standardized test scores… and he can’t even claim a 3.0 GPA because he won’t do homework. (Note: has been diagnosed ADHD for years, lots of helpful interventions, goes to terrific school with lots of challenges… and yes, he’s a packrat.) He’s a HS junior and too old to have Mommy running down a checklist of his undone homework assignments, for pete’s sake.</p>
<p>Another unmotivated gifted child here. I suspect he’ll be pegged “brilliant underachiever”/“lazy” when he gets around to submitting college apps next year.</p>
<p>For today, I’m going to make 3 pies and brine a turkey, and try not to worry. But he ain’t gettin’ to that movie if that history paper and 3 weeks of missing Spanish assignments aren’t completed before noon!</p>
<p>Mootmom: Oh, what agony! My sympathies. I hope at least one day of your weekend is a nag-free day! (Did S1 stay at MIT for the holiday? Mine arrived home last Thursday, claiming he could safely miss the classes. Hope he’s right.)</p>
<p>Mootmom, what you’re doing is only a short term solution that’s going to brew a heck of a lot of long-term resentment. I’m still resentful about some of the stuff my mom did, and I’m in college!</p>
<p>But then again, I managed a 3.5 and ended up one spot out of the top ten % for failing physics for a quarter (and then getting a 94 the second quarter and a 94 on the final and getting that 80 on my transcript. Story of my life – makes me almost glad for block scheduling!)</p>
<p>He’s going to have to realize what he’s doing is a problem – because you know that he doesn’t – and then seek to correct it himself. It sucks that as a junior in high school his classes are so homework based. It also makes me happy that my mom gave up on confrences after middle school.</p>
<p>Just have to pipe in on the nagging part. My son who is also a natural slacker and absentminded professor type has begun ADD meds this year (age 14.) I realized with a shock recently that I have not yelled once this year about his missing/blown/lost work. I have not received one email griping about his performance, behavior, missed deadline, etc.</p>
<p>With some of these kids, the ADD angle might need to be explored. I still have very mixed feelings about medication, but in our case he has not had any negative side effects, does not “feel” different, etc. Meanwhile he is getting his stuff done with very few reminders and no big problems.</p>
<p>ok, maybe it is right in this situation to intervene, but as a kid who was placed in remedial math for not showing work until 10th grade, maybe he’s the same… if that’s true, there is really nothing you can do, but hope he gets a teacher who understands him, if that happens, it might show the need to do things required, not those that “catch his fancy,” honestly, i was bitter towards my math teachers until 10th grade, until i had that teacher that showed me something…</p>
<p>every case is unique and it’s hard to assess what’s wrong and what to do, but sometimes the best thing to do is nothing… waiting could work out for him</p>
<p>OK, so we have related several examples of students whose grades are far below where their test scores suggest they should be. What colleges might accept someone with 95th percentile and up test scores who is in the bottom quarter of their HS class with mostly C’s and D’s and little or no EC involvement? Of those, which might be worth considering for this kind of student?</p>
<p>I am all ears.</p>
<p>Why send that child to college? What is going to be different in college than is already at home? What will be better, what might be worse? </p>
<p>What does the child love? What does the child want to do? Who has ever been successful in getting the child to work to their potential and how/why?</p>
<p>I think you cannot begin to find a college for any of ‘these kids’ until you can answer these questions. Furthermore, I wouldn’t throw a dime at college until you can answer these questions.</p>
<p>Instead, invest your money in “The Myth of Laziness” by Dr. Mel Levine, and his more recent book on preparing kids for life, rather than for college. Find someone to help you understand your child, if you are not able to sort it out through these and other resources…</p>
<p>After, and only after, all this is done…I think more answers will be evident. First you have to ask the right questions.</p>
<p>I have seen thousands and thousands of dollars thrown away in the hopes that the next school, the next tutor, the next whatever will be the answer. First you have to really expand the understanding. Gifted and unmotivated is far from a sufficient explanation from my perspective.</p>
<p>A lot of state colleges care about SAT scores and may use them to override grades, as shown in this chart from the University of Washington: <a href=“http://admit.washington.edu/BeforeYouApply/Freshman/Trends[/url]”>http://admit.washington.edu/BeforeYouApply/Freshman/Trends</a></p>
<p>“Why send that child to college?”
Because he has asked to go and has done amazing things in enrichment programs that have an environment far more like college than high school. Because he has the potential to make real contributions in fields that require study at the college level. Because he asks questions that demonstrate he is already thinking at a college level.</p>
<p>“What is going to be different in college than is already at home?”
He will have far more choice as to what he studies. He will not have to wake up at 6:15 AM, start classes at 7:15 AM, rush through a 20-minute “lunch” at 9:30 AM then continue with no break for the rest of the school day. In most classes, homework need not involve mindless repetition and will not count for nearly as much of his final grade. He will be past the most painful stages of adolescence. Academic excellence will be respected by the majority of his peers rather then ridiculed.</p>
<p>We have answers to many of robyrm’s other questions that are a bit personal to post in a public forum. The bottom line is that we have a kid who is tremendous in many ways and challenged in a few others. We are doing everything we can to help and he is improving, albeit slowly. He wants and deserves to go to college, despite poor high school grades that have far more to do with an inability to play by the rules than to learn the material. The damage already done to his GPA will likely be hard to overcome. I have good reason to believe he would be an outstanding achiever in the right college program, but that program is not going to be easy to find.</p>
<p>I would love to hear from other parents who have already been through this. Did you indeed wind up throwing away thousands of dollars on the next school, did your child succeed beyond your wildest dreams, or was it somewhere in between? What school(s) were involved and what did you like or dislike about them.</p>
<p>Bass Dad, no answers here but I want to send you a cyber hug for how much you care about your son.</p>
<p>The book “Colleges that Change Lives” may give you some ideas… Also, he may be a good candidate for a two year college to pull himself together GPA wise, then transfer.</p>
<p>BassDad,
Sorry if I came off as flippant. I do not wish to suggest that there is neither a college that is right for your son, nor that he does not belong in college ultimately(or 3 years from now). What I am saying is that answering these kinds of questions can help provide insight into the kind of educational experience from which he will benefit. A kid who has not learned to do homework (Or has refused to do it), but continues to learn in HS(regardless of the grades) may be at particular risk in a college program which is much less superficial. While interest in the subject matter might motivate, a lack of practice in the ‘skills of learning’ will frustrate no matter what. </p>
<p>Fortunately, you still have a few years with your son to make these transitions. I can see that you have run the gamut of assessment and intervention. Perhaps read the books I mentioned and see if they ‘speak’ to you and if so, try to find someone with this philosophical approach in your area. </p>
<p>If a student is truly expressing a desire to go to college, and a readiness, then that is great- many kids who have flogged their way through don’t feel that way, but inertia brings them to the point of picking a college, and then they are doomed to recreate their pattern of lack of ‘success.’ Or, the feeling is it will be better just because it is different, and really it is not. Hence, the money thrown down the drain. </p>
<p>The highly uneven learner is constantly plagued by the discrepancy between what they know and what they show…what takes them out of this realm is usually first understanding and acceptance of themselves, followed by a mentoring relationship, a sense of their value in something, and areas of genuine success and interest- which then drive them to be more tenacious- the key ingredient. It is hard to be tenacious when you are depressed, of course, so your son is dealing with a lot at the moment…</p>
<p>If the issues regarding school are more programmatic, specific to the style of learning, the style of assessment, the flexibility of instruction (which it sounds like might be the case with your son), then it is a matter of fit, rather than readiness. There are lots of schools with support programs of various types (and threads about them). They key thing is finding a school that has both the support (in study skills instruction for example)…but also the depth in the particular area of interest a child has…as you have probably learned, generic might not cut it. </p>
<p>Can I suggest also the web site for ‘twice exceptional’ children as a resource- I think if you google it you will find it. The Loren Pope books are filled with stories of ‘late bloomers’ and the successes they find at small schools with nurturing learning environments. Although your son might be able to get into a larger (state) school based on SAT’s, chances are that he might thrive in a smaller place, with more personal contact. </p>
<p>I don’t mean to be discouraging. You have a lot of reasons to feel optimistic if there are interests that engage your son, you have support you have clicked with, he is showing slow improvement…I would also look for a summer program in his area of prime interest and see what that feels like for him, to give him an experience in being away, self managing, etc. that does not have the school element to it…</p>
<p>Maybe a year from now you will have the luxury of looking at programs based more on his interests and less on his challenges…</p>
<p>Bassdad and Mootmom:</p>
<p>I feel for you, but I want to echo some points Roby made. In both your cases, there is time for your kids to develop much better profiles than they currently have.
One of the greatest dangers for gifted but “unmotivated” kids is becoming underachievers and developing bad (or non-existent) study habits). And colleges do frown on such kids. In fact, I once overheard two adcoms discussing a student who had perfect SATs but so-so grades. Both agreed that the student fit the classic profile of the underachiever and “we don’t want those, do we?” As I expressed surprise that the SATs did not seem to counteract the so-so GPA, one of them explained to me that college was so much harder than high school and students who did not have good work ethics would not cut it. So here you have two issues: the importance of GPA in admission and the development of good study habits.
When we found out our S was advanced in math and bored in class, we tried hard to work with teachers to give him more challenging materials. Sometimes it did not work: the teacher was against tracking or too inexperienced to know how to challenge a kid who did not fit the norm. But we found that some teachers were willing to help accelerate him. We also found that if he was happy with his math classes, he was willing to put forth the effort in classes that held less interest.<br>
If your kids are eager to leave high school, taking them on visit to some colleges may motivate them to work harder toward that goal. Roby’s suggestion of summer programs is also a good one. See if the teachers are willing to look past your kids’ unwillingness to do busywork and assign more meaningful kind. The usual attitude is that if a kid cannot do the easy work, s/he cannot do the harder work. Strike a bargain with your kids that they have to demonstrate they can do the work before being allowed to tackle the more difficult kind.<br>
The high school had a math teacher who taught both AP-Calc and 10th grade honors geometry. My niece (visiting from France) had her for AP-Calc. S1 had her for 10th grade geometry.
On parents’ day, she announced that geometry was a boring subject and the only way to learn it was doing lots of problems. She had the same attitude for calculus and routinely assigned 40 problems per week. We were determined not to subject S2 to this joyless way of teaching and learning. S2 learned calculus out of a book. My H assigned only as many exercises as he felt were needed for my S to demonstrate understanding. It came to about half what the high school students were made to do.
But we also worked with the teachers to provide him more challenging assignments in other classes: more difficult books, longer and better written reports than what was required , etc… Luckily, he never felt that he was being punished for being advanced and understood that the requirements were minimal, not optimal requirements. He rose to challenges, and to this day, will blow off easy assignments.<br>
In the summer programs, he met kids like himself who were focused on attending college and that, too, helped.
Other things that might help: get your kids involved in ECs they really enjoy. If some of them have an academic character (science team, creative writing club) all the better.
I’m sure you have tried many things. I can only hope my suggestions are not redundant. One last comment. My S had a friend whom I thought was brilliant. He had a quick wit and an irrepressible sense of humor. A real stand-up comedian who used his gift to get out of doing any work. My S’s account of how he managed to get out of Spanish classes on a regular basis by pushing the teacher’s buttons had us in stitches. We bumped into him and his mom last year at parents’ night. He was still the class cutup but he had woken up and was actually doing very well in honors and AP classes. He is now a senior, with a much better attitude and GPA than when he was a sophomore. So there is hope!</p>
<p>SBmom: Thanks. I have already seen the CTCL book and website. We have an excellent county college right in town that is plan B, but I’m still looking for plan A.</p>
<p>Robyrm: No need to apologize, you asked a bunch of good questions and are thinking “outside the box.” I will look up the books you mentioned and add them to the other four dozen or so we have been through. My son has had several summers at an academic summer camp for the gifted held on various college campuses. He did fine when they had loose rules and let him pretty much fend for himself academically and socially. The last year he went, they changed ownership and came down hard on the kids with a lot of inflexible rules, basically treating them like 9-year olds. We had to bring him home early that year. Last summer, instead of a camp, he worked at a computer products business owned by his grandfather. They introduced him to pretty much everything they do including R&D, product design and manufacturing. He loved it and wants to do it again next year.</p>
<p>Marite: I hear you. I realize that most colleges are not going to want the underachievers and that is why I am starting to look around this early in his HS career. It is not so much bad study habits or laziness in this case as rebellion against authority and an unwillingness to meet others halfway when he’s convinced he’s right. (And all too often he is not right.) If he survives adolescence, I have no doubt that he will be a success at something. I suspect the path will be bumpy and unconventional.</p>
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<p>Can you build around his very obvious interest? My S had a tendency to turn every paper assignment into something to do with math and science. So papers on the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, on the 19th century, and every historical period before or since turned into a discussion of math and science knowledge. Maybe computers can play the same role for your S. Take him to some colleges that are good for that field. There is a wide range, and some will count standardized test scores more highly than GPAs.</p>
<p>As a teacher kids like this can be frustrating certainly but my own personal policy is that I will not fail any student who passes tests in my class. The purpose of homework is to facilitate learning and the purpose of assessment is to demonstrate that learning has occurred. If passing my class is contingent on homework regardless of how many times a kid demonstrates they have learned through satisfactory assessment then it seems to me I am only giving homework because I can.</p>
<p>I also believe philosophically that a homework assignment that can be completed in front of the television and done correctly wasn’t worth giving.</p>