<p>Wharfrat:</p>
<p>I totally agree with you! Of course, the homework might be more challenging to some students than to others. But I would hope all teachers would show the same flexibility as you do.</p>
<p>“OK, so we have related several examples of students whose grades are far below where their test scores suggest they should be. What colleges might accept someone with 95th percentile and up test scores who is in the bottom quarter of their HS class with mostly C’s and D’s and little or no EC involvement? Of those, which might be worth considering for this kind of student?”</p>
<p>There are plenty of colleges that would be delighted to have a student with high test scores even if his grades are low. The problem, however, is that by the time your S finishes high school – which clearly is boring him – he may be so turned off by college that if he goes, he won’t stay in.</p>
<p>That’s what happened older S, a gifted, ADHD, high-scoring, low grade but strong EC kid who got major merit aid to a second tier college that rolled out the welcome mat for him.</p>
<p>S had a fabulous time continuing the nonathletic EC that he had started in el school and in which he was one of the top students in the country. Heck, he was better at that EC than many adults who are working in that profession.</p>
<p>He made friends, had a wonderful time, but found classes a waste of time, so didn’t go and basically flunked out – with a first place regional award in his EC.</p>
<p>If I could do it over, I would have pulled him out of his h.s. (which he had insisted on attending because his magnet program was the county’s most rigorous) and would have put him into our local alternative school in which classes are small, teachers and students are on a first name basis, and students get to learn in ways that best meet their interests and talents.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, that school has a rep as being a place for “losers,” but the truth is that it is a wonderful place for smart students who march to their own drummers. Many of those students go on to college and do very well.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, S is now 21, never went back to college, and is trying to find himself by being a musician, which was not the EC that I had referred to before. He continues to study all sorts of things on his own, but continues to think that formal education is a waste of time because he was so turned off by his high school experience that included lots of boring homework that he had no need to do because he could ace the tests.</p>
<p>NSM’s comments make me wonder… our HS has a program for kids to complete their HS education at the local Community college. I also have a friend whose son left HS two years early for Simon’s Rock college of Bard.</p>
<p>‘Last summer, instead of a camp, he worked at a computer products business owned by his grandfather. They introduced him to pretty much everything they do including R&D, product design and manufacturing. He loved it and wants to do it again next year.’</p>
<p>Hi Bass Dad,
I want to pick up on this comment as well. Not only does your son have a sense of what interests him, he has a chance to do it as it in a ‘family business.’ This brings me to wonder if an apprenticeship type model of learning might suit him better. Look for schools that have internships and work exposure as part of the educational process, in other words. Or, start his apprenticeship as many have started, in lowly areas of the business, and then when the interest is substantive and genuine, this might motivate him to sustain himself in a more academic framework. The self discipline needed to be able to study things that are less interesting, do things just because you have to, etc…can all be learned through many domains.</p>
<p>The ‘oppositional’ element you describe makes this all a bit trickier, as you note. He has to have real ‘buy in’ and he has to have genuine success right off the bat. I think this element in kids is usually at it’s peak in your son’s age frame- being right is what being that age is all about…but maybe it can be reframed as an interest in debate, etc…as well. The structure of these sorts of programs can be a negative at times, but other kids will thrive on the chance to argue (and to learn to argue better!). All the while, these programs teach the necessity of ‘seeing another point of view’ in order to enhance your arguments- which also is of value.</p>
<p>Can I also say that I think it is really healthy to maintain a long term perspective at this point, as you are doing. Yours is definitely a situation where you have to ‘pick your battles’ carefully…</p>
<p>I would like to thank one and all for the supportive comments and suggestions. However, I do not want to hijack what started out as a topic of general interest and turn it into something that is exclusively about my son. I will be happy to continue such discussions via PM, should anyone wish to do so.</p>
<p>I do think that stories from others who have “been there, done that and bought the T-shirt” about their own experiences would get us back on track. Any takers?</p>
<p>BassDad, FWIW, I don’t mind at all if the thread is “hijacked” as there could still be useful information that it appears may benefit many of us. Unless you’d prefer people to PM you…that’s OK too. I just wanted to say I’m learning a lot, even if things are not solely about my own son. :)</p>
<p>i’m sorry this is pretty off topic, but do you guys live on the west coast? cuz i see some posts up at 5 am in est</p>
<p>cujoe, I live in Mountain time ;)</p>
<p>Don’t go to PM with the hijack because then others would miss the valuable info. Start a new thread or continue the discussion here.</p>
<p>NorthStarmom- maybe our Ss can start a band??? I haven’t posted about my S for awhile…painful subject most of the time. His profile is parallel to most of those in this thread. Has been in counseling most of his life. Music GENIUS. Unfortunately he is being diagnosed with a combination of emotional disorders—bi-polar, ADD, depression, OCD,and Dr. is worried about schizophrenia. If I can offer any advice,it would be…be really careful with your designation of WHAT the problem really is. The poor grades can often be a symptom of a problem that is very complicated. My son likely appears unmotivated to most who don’t know him, but he really does not want to be the way he is. At 15, he is only now reaching a level of maturity that allows him to tell us what IS going on inside of his head…most kids may not feel the need to explain when they feel that their parents have pegged them as lazy or unmotivated.<br>
Unfortunately for him, he was known as a “genius type” in grade school and people have such high expectations for him. I have had to endure the scrutiny of parents, friends, educators, etc. as far as how I deal with S. It took me awhile (too long) to realize that emotional well being is the only important issue right now and there will always be learning opportunities. If I lived in an area that had a performing arts HS, I would definitely be looking into it. </p>
<p>Question…S never turns in any homework but makes As on most tests that he takes. I am considering having him take some post-secondary course work next year…hoping for less homework…and thus fostering a bit of academic “success” (as measured by the “rest of the world”). Does anyone with a similar child have any experience with this???</p>
<p>Momnipotent:</p>
<p>My heart goes out to you. I know someone whose child was diagnosed a bi-polar when he was a freshman in college. This diagnosis answered some questions regarding the young man’s high school performance, but it’s been such a heartache for the family! The young man is able to control his mood with the help of medication and his university has been enormously supportive, my acquaintance reports. But it has been a struggle convincing him that he needs to keep up with the medication, possibly for the rest of his life. </p>
<p>Would it be possible for you to negotiate with your son’s teachers to exempt him from the homework that is designed to help students attain mastery of materials? I am with Wharfrat on this point: homework is supposed to help you learn, and the proof that you have learned comes in test scores. It is not an end in itself.<br>
There will, however, be plenty of homework in college courses depending on what your S takes. It will not be due the next day as so many high school assgnments seem to be, so it will be easier for a student to organize his or her time. My S has weekly problem sets for his math and science classes and readings for the other two classes. In addition, the classes require response papers, and such. But it depends on individual instructors and the nature of the courses. Humanities and social sciences classes may only require a mid-term, a term paper and a final; math and science courses are more likely to have weekly exercises, lab reports, and so forth.
Since, however, he likes music, could he take courses in music theory, history or appreciation? The work is bound to be rather different than for humanities, social sciences or sciences, and it probably would be far more enjoyable for him. I am keeping my fingers crossed for him.</p>
<p>Thanks to you Marite. S is a really interesting and likable person! His manic phase is pronounced with irritability- which we are used to at this house. He just started a new med last week and so far it is going well (2 other meds were a disaster!). The blessing from God in Ss case is that he is FINALLY asking for help. I did a LOT of damage in jr. high by labeling him as lazy, unmotivated,etc…and our relationship is just now to the point where he is trusting of me and knows that I am on his team. It is my sincere hope that we can tweak meds (S is soph.) and help him to where he can get into a music program near our home. Music is his absolute salvation…makes him very happy. </p>
<p>I love your suggestion about negotiating with teachers about homework. I think his teachers this year have been wonderful (NOT the case in jr. high) and I do worry about how they would explain to the other students that S does not have to turn in work. I believe that our Dr. and myself will likely meet with teachers after the first of the year and try to negotiate a plan for the rest of the year. I think most of his teachers are becoming aware on their own that he has more going on than ADD. We are still in process of diagnosing as the case is complex. Most days I am strong and have a lot of will to fight the good fight. Siblings are incredibly supportive.</p>
<p>“be really careful with your designation of WHAT the problem really is.”</p>
<p>Well put, momnipotent. We have not yet been through OCD or schizophrenia diagnoses but are with you the rest of the way. Knowing that behavior can be the result of physical and emotional illness rather than laziness and disrespect has allowed me to stop being part of the problem and start being part of the solution.</p>
<p>I see that you are in Ohio. If you are within driving distance of Oberlin, the conservatory there has a program in which some of their best third and fourth year students teach high school age and younger kids. My daughter is in her first year there and I could get more information from her if you are interested.</p>
<p>BassDad-
Thanks! We are near Columbus and the next two years will be telling as far as whether S can manage to live away from home during his first years (if ever) of school. S does not talk about future very often, other than that he will continue to study music. </p>
<p>To anyone who has an underachiever- I have recommended this book on CC before, but it truly changed my life “Bright Minds, Poor Grades” by Dr. Wheatley (I think author is right). The practical solution for managing homework did not work in our case but it COMPLETELY resolved our relationship issues–thus allowing progress where S truly needed it most right now. I found the book by chance and Ss doctor has recommended it to many patients/parents since.</p>
<p>BTW, the encouragment from posters on this thread means the world to me! I have gone back to read them a few times. As a single parent ( with no input from ex-spouse), I really need some reinforcement from time to time.</p>
<p>lol, it always seems like the world’s against you until you realize others have the same problems</p>
<p>Returning to the OP’s concerns, I would recommend getting the boy involved in some kind of mental, competitive activity that goes far beyond the school curriculum. The national [MATHCOUNTS[/url</a>] program is a life-saver for many bright sixth-graders who find school boring, and you are still on time to register for this year. I have found it helpful for my son, who gets bored with his work when his provides too little new information, to line up work that leads to greater learning gain. For example, I sign my son up for distance learning courses aimed above his grade level, for example those from [url=<a href=“http://www.ctd.northwestern.edu/learning/]The”>http://www.ctd.northwestern.edu/learning/]The</a> Center for Talent Development](<a href=“http://www.mathcounts.org%5DMATHCOUNTS%5B/url”>http://www.mathcounts.org). I also have him in the third year of an accelerated math course that has him, at eighth-grade age, taking an honors calculus I course taught on our state’s flagship university campus. These courses have taught him how to do homework. The competition programs have taught him how to take on challenges that essentially no one his age can do perfectly. Together those activities have built up his resilience and his diligence, and those are both characteristics adult learners need to have. </p>
<p>Oh, and something I always tell him about IQ scores: “With your IQ score and the price of a cup of coffee, you can buy a cup of coffee wherever coffee is sold.” In other words, no one is going to cut him many breaks just for having a high IQ. I tell my son he should think about what kinds of problems he finds interesting, and develop enough problem-solving ability that he can trade solutions to problems for the money, educational opportunities, and responsibility that people with problems will be willing to exchange with him. School can give a terribly misleading illusion that everything in life is free, and that you never have to learn how to pay the rent. I try to remind my son that he can only get that kind of life from his own mother 
and that from everyone else he will have to earn his keep. </p>
<p>Best wishes to you and your son, and to the other parents posting in this thread dealing with similar issues.</p>
<p>TokenAdult-
Great post. S does participate in quiz bowl–he is the niche music, science , lang. arts player. He also plays a varsity sport with a great deal of success believe it or not. Marching band is his big identifier though.</p>
<p>random thought, anyone have a kid in band and football? it would suck having to stop at halftime and play in the band</p>
<p>I also have a S with similar traits who refused to do his homework if it was boring and meaningless… I did pull him out of high school, he started taking CC and online classes, and (honestly, I did not expect) he got all A’s. He also realised that he did not want to learn in a lower-tier university and applied to several top colleges. His first choice was UIUC, but he went to Lawrence U because of financial considerations… and now I think it’t better for him academically. The trimester system means that he just takes 3 classes at a time, it’s easier to manage, and there’s no time to slack off… and he has very close contact with his adviser (I know they call it “hand-holding” on CC - well, I believe this kid still does need some of that). Lawrence took him despite D’s and C’s in his transcript - I guess, they DO look “at the whole child”</p>
<p>I have no idea how it will turn out - but his main problem at school was that the classes were not challenging, so I really wanted S2 to get to a strong university.</p>
<p>I think most kids described in this topic just need acceleration and/or more challenging work… but schools will not allow that because “they should start doing their homework first” - catch-22 for those kids. Thank God there are teachers like wharfrat2.</p>
<p>There was a number of good suggestions in this topic how to “feed the brains” - academic ECs, competitions, summer programs, distance classes (CTY, EPGY)… I don’t believe USACO and USAMTS were mentioned (individual programming and math contests, no school support is needed). But sometimes school can be SO boring that the kid will not have enough energy left… The hoagiesgifted website has tons of resourses on advocating and negotiating with school, and lots of other resourses about gifted kids (underachievers and twice-exceptional, too)</p>
<p>For us, homeschooling was “the” solution for both S2 and S3 - the youngest was not bold enough and did not actually refuse to do his homework, but he suffered none the less because of the discrepancy between the level of schoolwork and what he really needed… he was starting to act just like his brother, and the school refused to accomodate him, so - homeschooling, college classes, PROMYS, competitions, EPGY, - and he survived until we moved to a more accomodating school district.</p>