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<p>Well-said. It takes a lot of trust in your boy and his teachers to back away and not pre-screen. </p>
<p>The opportunity to take charge of this process will help mature your boy. </p>
<p>To be honest, though, all 3 of mine “leaned” on me a lot at the beginning but grew in confidence until I was irrelevant by the end. I loved outliving my usefulness.</p>
<p>Shawbridge - I re-read my post (typos & all) and realized that since you don’t know me, I probably sounded somewhat cavalier and nothing could be further from the truth. I have worked with young adults like your son and I know that the greater the gap between a child’s strengths and weaknesses, the greater the stress on the child and the parent. I know how incredibly difficult it can be when you have a child with eye-popping scores on certain subtests, but lower ones on others. I understand completely why you would want to pre-screen, but I think Allmusic had the right word, people would feel micromanaged. Let’s face it, with your credentials if you are talking to an ordinary high school teacher they will already be a little intimidated - and I am NOT insulting the teachers - but it is true. Unless they have an EdD or PhD, you will already be a bit formidable. </p>
<p>Anyway, my suggestion about the letter came from your comment about the novel. If he can author (not necessarily write) a letter that conveys what is in his heart, most teachers will respond with a glowing letter given his accomplishments. I suggested to my daughter that she write a cover letter with her requests explaining why she was applying to such high selective schools and what she thought she could contribute. She wrote slightly different letters to each teacher, emphasizing different points so if they used her thoughts in their letters they wouldn’t be identical. One teacher knew her really well and we knew he would gush - the other knew her only as a student, so I think it really helped for the teacher to know DD’s goals and dreams. </p>
<p>One thought that comes to mind is that you will also have a supplemental letter. It seems to me that the director of special services might be the best person to write a letter that really captures the dichotomy of your child and the truly remarkable nature of his accomplishments. </p>
<p>As Allmusic said - we are all hoping your son’s strengths will shine on their own!</p>
<p>PS - Believe me - I was a lot like p3t, I did a lot of suggesting to DD in the beginning and I too have outlived my usefulness.</p>
<p>We (husband, D, and I) floated potential recommenders to the GC at an early fall meeting (every senior family has one at the school). It was helpful. He gave very direct positive feedback on some of her teachers, slightly less on others. He said they all liked D but other teachers just tended to put out a more effective letter. D is following his advice.</p>
<p>Wow – I wish I could believe that the GCs at my D’s school had the time or the inclination to review letters of recommendation or even have meetings where we talk about it.
My D’s teacher insisted on giving her copies of his letters. Like some of the other posters here, I was not incredibly impressed with the style of his letter, but he had only wonderful things to say. Good teachers are not necessarily gifted writers, I guess.
I can see how all the requests for letters could become a real chore at big public high schools.</p>
<p>paying3tuitions (I love and don’t envy the reason behind your screen name), I do trust my boy. He is active in every class, shoots for a 120 if the standard is 100, is serious in school, and a deep thinker. I also trust his teachers to some extent. We know that a number of the teachers think he is just wonderful. Some may be more capable of distinguishing the high level of intellect that appears to be there. I don’t micromanage well enough to really know which would get the true level of talent there. What’s interesting is that the best of his teachers are typically pretty demanding and pretty tough. So it is a little hard to tell what they really think. </p>
<p>Out of curiosity, paying3tuitions, I was surprised that you thought such an approach might be ethically questionable. I considered that the approach could be ineffective or counterproductive, but I wonder what seems potentially unethical. I would neither have misled anyone nor told them what to say, but would have asked them if they were going to write a superlative letter or just a strong letter.</p>
<p>We can’t rely on our son’s GC as she is at most 23. I’m not sure she’s capable of judging either kids or various schools or knows the teachers well enough. She seems nice enough and will probably learn over time. I will likely write her letter for her, just as I wrote my own letter years ago.</p>
<p>I suspect Allthemusic is partially right. We tend to get to know the teachers better than most parents because of the IEP process and his penchant to get sick, in which case I sometimes as a conduit for communication. Some of the teachers I know less well could perceive my attempt to prescreen as micromanagement. Others would be OK. Later this year, for example, I will teach 2 classes for one of my son’s teachers on a subject on which I’m pretty well-known. This is his second course with her and she’s also been a judge in Moot Court, where she really got to see him grow. I think she’d probably be fine with my question. But your point is well-taken. I don’t want to offend or anger the teachers.</p>
<p>paying3tuitions, you asked a number of good questions. I don’t think he’s as shy or worried – his self-esteem seems pretty high. I think he could face his teachers and all will want to write his recs. A number have basically said anything we can do to help, just let us know. </p>
<p>Your question about whether he really wants to go to a school with lots of kids like him is a good one. Perhaps I’m projecting because he, like me, thrives on intellectual stimulation and I felt excited when I got to college and realized, “there are lots of people like me here.” However, I’ve never asked him. Here’s what causes me to think that he’d want the stimulation. I know that he was/is frustrated that most of his classes, including the AP and Honors classes had too slow an intellectual pace, and that in many classes he was one of few high-level contributors. He wants more debate. Incidentally, the choice need not be top of a weaker class or middle of a stronger class. He could be near the top of a stronger class.</p>
<p>Maybe we’re just not communicating well, due to this odd forum format. When you wrote the question the second round, that what you want to do is ask whether they;d write a “superlative letter or just a strong letter” which is asking them to weigh in along a spectrum or make a choice. By contrast, in round l of your description, it sounded a bit more like you were going to ask them if they’d write a superlative letter…so I didn’t hear any choice there except to answer you “yes or no.” So that’s where I got to 'unethical" because I didn’t see where you were giving the teacher a chance to decline you without insulting you. It sounded like a shake-down! And obviously you didn’t mean it that way.
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When you say you’ll write the GC’s letter for her, I assume you mean submitting one of those lists of your kid’s activities and highlights of achievements, as a memory trigger for her? Even then, I think it’d be character building for you S, not you, to write that list, even if you have to sit there with him and help him remember all of his highlight achievements.
Surely you see the difference between sending the GC your list, and having him hand in his list to her. Sure, coach him on the list at home, but teach him to make his own list. Maybe you even meant that, but looking at your written words, I sure got concerned you were ghost-writing a GC rec letter, right down to the adjectives to characterize your son. </p>
<p>I wonder if you can get your S to identify which classes he feels provide the most opportunity for debate, since that’s where you both feel he has strong skills. I’m thinking that perhaps the History or English teachers can recognize his higher order thinking more readily than science or math teachers, but maybe I’m just prejudiced that way. In terms of air time in a classroom, it seems to me (in general, no offense to all the great math and science teachers redingg…) that in h.s., at least, my experience is that the teachers of Eng. and History are less bound by curriculum and pressured towards tests. Their classes generally have more discussion time in them than, say, foreign language, math, or science. Even if your s is frustrated it’s not enough debate time, at least he knows which have “some” (altho he’ll say probably “it’s still not enough”). </p>
<p>As well, beware the lament of many fine h.s. history teachers that the kids want to debate but don’t have the patience to learn enough facts to support their claims!</p>
<p>Finally, I’m wondering if you might be able to ask the principal rather than the GC. Explain it this way, without insulting the GC or reminding him that he has a 23 year old there (believe me, he knows…). As soon as you say “she’s 23” he’ll rush to assure you of her enthusiasm and tuned-in awareness of the kids’ needs. So just go really light about why you’re not talking with the GC.</p>
<p>The principal IS the one to HIRE and evaluate all FACULTY in their classrooms; and certainly knows them from meetings. So you might approach it this way, that you believe your S responds best to “those faculty who emphasize higher order thinking in their classrooms.” Every principal has studied “Bloom’s Taxonomy” (I’m sure you know of it, if not google it) so principals generally recognize if you ask about teachers who use more":higher order thinking questions" in their classrooms. Staying away from which teachers give him which grades, he might be able to hear your list of teachers and simply say who he feels would best recognize higher order thinking in a student. You can emphasize that you know that different teachers match different student strnegth areas; in other words, I’m coaching you to sound inclusive of the entire school before you zoom in on your kid’s needs. That way you’re not asking him to name his best teachers, but simply those who use a certain recognizable skill (highe order thinking) frequently in their classrooms. Those teachers would recognize your son’s strengths, I believe. I’d do this in a phone call, because no principal in his right mind would ever answer such a question in writing.</p>
<p>Thanks p3t, I think you understand. I was just going to give the opportunity to say yes or no or maybe to whether, if asked, they were going to write the “superlative” letter or just a very good one (or less, though that is unlikely). I didn’t want to put words in their mouths but just get a read of what kind of letter they’d write. I’ve experienced worse: I once received a “job offer” from a Presidential transition team that wasn’t a job offer for a sub-sub-… cabinet position (long title meaning not very important). The job, if offered, would have involved advising the Cabinet Secretary in very sensitive matters. They were calling to set up a meeting with the Secretary but before they would set up the meeting, they wanted my commitment that I would accept the job if he offered it to me. That seemed a bit weird as I would have wanted to know if I thought we could work together before agreeing to accept the job. What I was contemplating doing with the teachers was, I hope, a little more straightforward. My take from this forum is that people feel teachers might feel micromanaged or offended.</p>
<p>He actually has only good to excellent teachers by now and most if not all recognize his higher-order thinking (though this can be a semester by semester deal). The issue is in part classmates who, in the History/Social Studies classes just aren’t on his level for the most part, and in part the intellectual pace of the science/math classes. The question from a rec standpoint is who’s going to say, “He’s a really good student who thinks deeply and works hard and got good grades” versus “He’s one of the best students I’ve had in the last X years.” Maybe they’ll all be in the first group, but I don’t think so.</p>
<p>With the GC, she sent out a detailed questionnaire to parents and kids to help her write the letter. She gets info from both. I will effectively write the letter in bullet form for her and organize the argument. She’ll modify as she sees fit. What I mean by writing it is that I’ll provide useful framing concepts into which the data fit. My son will also provide his list and whatever else she asks. I’ll work with him so that he sees how to frame the data as well. That’s a skill he’ll be able to use. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, the principal started in September. Even the GC has been around longer. You are right, though, that any communications like you described should be on the phone or in person (better, I think).</p>
<p>Thanks for all of your advice.</p>
<p>I had the feeling from other CC posters that GCs asking parents to “frame” the discussion or the GC letter is not unusual. </p>
<p>Our GCs gave the parents a questionnaire which they used to describe our kid, give anecdotes, etc. We also met and discussed a few things and whether or not they should be included – based on the GC’s experience, how DS has managed various events and issues in his life, and whether some things are better said by DS in an essay, by a specific teacher, or by the GC. </p>
<p>DS1 knows his GC pretty well, and I hope that’s reflected in the GC letter, but I know that is not always the case, esp. in large publics. The proncipal would never get involved in recs. At DS’s school, they were specifically instructed to ask teachers if they were willing to write an enthusiastic recommendation. One had a questionnaire for him to complete; both wanted activity sheets; DS included a cover letter to both saying “please don’t talk about my activity list – talk about me in your class” and gave some highlights of conversations, projects, etc. that he found particularly valuable. I hope this strategy works.</p>
<p>Not to beat any ol’ dead horse here, but I truthfully believe that when a student is the “best I’ve had in X years”, the kid and parents already know that. It isn’t ethical for a teacher to say that, unless it is true (although I have heard that some are bought off with diamond tennis bracelets…might be folklore, but I have heard it more than once). </p>
<p>Again, do what you can on the guidance end with supplying your information. The teachers should write what they see fit, without so much parent intervention. If the parents need to TELL the teacher that their kid was the best in umpteen years, and the teacher didn’t come up with that on his/her own, how valid a report is it? Will the rest of it fit together? </p>
<p>Because that’s the other thing…the whole rec has to hang together in terms of truth and integrity. Occasionally I will see one where I think there are gaps, or things that don’t make sense. Usually there is something anecdotal that “makes” a student the best in X years, and usually the teacher shares that.</p>
<p>I just think it works to your best interest to let this all unfold a little more naturally.</p>
<p>To anyone whose school routinely sends out a questionnaire to parents and kids about the kids’ activities, as fodder to help the GC write the letter, please count your lucky stars. How I wish that had been the case here! We only heard that S had handed “something” in to his GC, and as usual he didn’t bring back the request to share with us. I’m sure he did fine, but I still admire more the schools that spend the extra stamps to send home college prep info to the parents. If the parents choose not to participate, so be it. I think helping a kid list his activities, helping him recall high points, is very appropriate participation between the parent and child. I’m sure the GC’s appreciate the input, too. I’ve heard on CC how parents send in these kinds of letters unsolicited if their GC doesn’t ask for them. Especially for big public schools where the GC’s have large caseloads of college-bound students, this seems great. I wish I’d done one…ah well, the deal is sealed but I reflect back on these processes this year. Encouragement to all this Fall. It’s not an easy season!</p>
<p>I wrote a very glowing “brag sheet” for my son’s GC before I knew he was going to ask for one. It’s a GREAT opportunity to highlight all that is special about your child, much of which the GC would have no other way of knowing. I did not hold back one bit–I did let me son read it before I sent it in. He said, “Boy, this makes me sound like a really interesting person.” Most of us have raised our kids not to be b<em>o</em>a<em>s</em>t<em>f</em>u*l, so they are unlikely to give as superlative an account of themselves as we (or their teachers) will give of them. </p>
<p>My son asked his AP English and AP French teachers from Jr. year for recs. He had loved both classes and teachers, participated very actively and learned a lot from them. The one I saw was glowing. I assume the other was as well. I have to believe that teachers say “yes” to kids they can wholeheartedly recommend.</p>
<p>I know your intentions are only the best, OP, but I personally think it would be best for your son to select the teachers to ask and for you to not be as involved in this.</p>
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<p>Yes- in fact the whole application has to hang together and give a collaborative picture of the student. Ideally, the counselors rec, teachers’ recs, supplemental recs, student’s activity list and the transcript itself should all compliment and reinforce each other. Personally, I believe it’s more important that the colleges see the particular and unique ways the student adds to the whole than that this student be “one of the best I’ve had in my career.” </p>
<p>I think parents may be making a mistake to believe that they are in a better position than their kids to choose which teachers would give the most effective recommendations. Their kids are in the classes everyday, and can tell which teachers really connect with them and which don’t. They also know the teacher’s personalities - who is inclined to write with enthusiasm and who is more reserved and measured in their praise. Let your child make the call and ask for the rec. I think this is not only the right thing to do, but is the most likely to achieve the best outcome.</p>
<p>i waive my rights and so did all my friends when it came to rec letters. i really have no idea what any of them said, but my friend asked our english teacher to write hers. she has a very personal relationship with him (had him for 3 years, was the president of a club he sponsors, even babysat for his kids every once in awhile, all while maintaining an A+ in his class) and he gladly showed her the stunning letter he wrote for her. it was spectacular and she was floored at how highly he thought of her as both a developing person and academic.</p>
<p>i was also lucky enough to get to read a few of mine and it really is a humbling experience to read how highly others think of you. i was expecting it to really inflate my ego…but it didnt.</p>
<p>i guess, in conclusion, if he gets the right people to write his letters then they will contain positive remarks that he would probably be proud of. maybe he’ll even get to read them!</p>
<p>Kristin – you make a good point. Wouldn’t it be nice if the waiver expired at graduation, and rec letters were presented upon graduation? In most cases, I think they would be very special mementos. </p>
<p>I don’t remember rec letters back when I was in high school, but I still cherish the lengthy and insightful note my English teacher wrote in my yearbook. Our lives grow beyond that point in our personal history, but it would be very special if we could carry with us the good wishes of those who appreciated us as works in progress.</p>
<p>Thanks for your advice. – it’s been a busy week and I couldn’t get back to the site. I think I do these things effectively but I think the clear read is that even this request done well crosses some kind of line. Allthemusic, I think my son has choices between teachers who think he is sensational and some who may think he is sensational. A couple of his senior year teachers may not recognize how strong he is, in part because he’s been sick for almost 3 weeks of the year. His Honors Chemistry teacher has already written something in the superlative vein (he has not seen it but I have). He thinks a recommendation from a sophomore year teacher would not be good enough. His Constitutional Law teacher would like write a superlative letter, but I don’t know yet about his senior year teachers. The AP Chemistry teacher also thinks very highly, but my son said that he found AP Chemistry trivial and didn’t participate as actively in class discussions as he usually does because he was completely board. [He really felt he knew it cold and told me he thinks he got one question wrong on the AP Chemistry exam]. But, I don’t know if he’d get the same superlative from the AP Chem teacher. So, I would have been trying to suss out what the AP Chem and senior year teachers would say. But, it would be counterproductive to inadvertently cross the line and offend. Thanks.</p>
<p>Incidentally, if I were a teacher, I probably wouldn’t mind sharing my recommendations after graduation with the strongest students but would be uncomfortable with sharing with lesser recs because I might well still see their parents, siblings, etc. It was helpful to me to see my post-PhD recommendations after the fact, but knowing that my students would see what I wrote would probably chill my willingness to be frank. This would lead to recommendation inflation that was similar to grade inflation; neither would provide as much information as they used to. Now, when I hire people, I ask to talk to their old employers. People are told not to say anything negative as this might be the cause for a lawsuit. So, you have to really read between the lines to get any information at all.</p>
<p>D used teachers that have written recommendation letter(s) for her before such as for job and internship, so she knew what they were going to write. Besides she talks to them regularly and can sense how well they like her.</p>
<p>my dad told me a funny story about his teacher recs</p>
<p>he had 2 teacher recs when he went to college and i guess he wasn’t allowed to see them. but then during the middle of his soph year of college there was some big privacy lawsuit or somethingg like that (yeah i wasn’t paying attention) but anyway all of a sudden he could go see his transcript which included his recs and was still on file. so he went down to admissions and read over his letters and one of them was decent but the other one was reeeally bad. he still has a copy of it. its basically full of just back handed compliments like “while he is surely not one of my smarter students, he has something in him that helps him succeed” and “i think this school will be right for him because it offers a lot of structure which is certainly what he needs”
i guess the teacher was able to be honest because he thought my dad would never see it…</p>
<p>An interesting postscript to my original message. S had an “ace in the hole” recommendation that we’ve been counting on for 3 years. This guy seemed to think S was great and did some really great things to help S succeed. When S asked for a rec, the guy emailed it to S (no signature…just email). Well, it included phrases like “He seemed to retain good skills from the learning experience,” and “I loaned equipment to him, and he returned everything in great shape.” Ouch!</p>
<p>S was so glad this letter came to him rather than going straight to the colleges. He did not send it in, and knew that he had to come up with another recommender. He found one, and this one included statements like, “…quickly distinguishing himself as a willing and serious crew member…” and “he has a gift for turning dramatic situations into moving stories…”. This recommender sent in the recs himself and sent S a signed copy. Now that’s more like it!</p>