<p>I don’t know emeraldkity, it’s hard. I can tell you my daughter’s first experience at college with vodka did not end pleasantly. At the time, I felt I should have sat her down over the summer and plied her with a few drinks so she would get some idea about how much she can handle and how long it takes (or not) to feel it sneak up on you. Part of what’s good but also complicates things is that we know so much more about our children’s lives than our parents ever did. At least in my family, my parents never had a clue. Was there stupid risk taking? Yes. I never got caught, and I was very lucky.</p>
<p>This thread gives a very distorted view of the world as I know it. Whether intentionally, untintentionally, or by biased selection, I don’t know.</p>
<p>Here’s how things are in my world: At (a) private schools attended by very affluent, educationally ambitious kids, and (b) suburban public schools attended by the same kinds of kids who go to the private schools, drinking culture is, indeed, practically universal. A few kids do not participate at all, but they are indeed outliers, and may have a hard time socially (although the poster who said things get better as the kids get older is correct in my view). Many more kids participate with moderation. Nothing in their experience teaches them that there is a large risk of serious adverse consequences from this. They don’t die, they don’t get injured, they don’t get arrested, they don’t stop getting good grades. (Sometimes they do get police citations. Sometimes they do get grounded. Sometimes they vomit.) Some of them get out of control sometimes, but most don’t.</p>
<p>At more economically diverse public schools, urban and suburban, there is much more diversity of behavior. The educationally ambitious students tend to be much more straight-edge than their private school/suburban peers, and there is always a sizable group that is much wilder and riskier. However, the kids who resemble the private school/suburban kids socioeconomically tend to behave more like them than kids who don’t (but they also tend to have more friends that don’t behave that way).</p>
<p>Parents usually know what’s going on with their kids. Sometimes they don’t. There was an incident a few years ago in which a kid I knew – athlete, straight-A student, etc. – was hospitalized for alchohol poisoning during orientation week at an elite LAC. Everyone, including her parents, was clucking about how she was unprepared for dealing with alchohol in a college setting. My daughter’s reaction: “It’s a miracle that didn’t happen every weekend in high school given how much she was drinking.”</p>
<p>I saw many, many parents’ attitudes change on this from middle school to, say, 11th grade, in the “at risk” private school/suburban group. When our kids were in middle school, a majority of the parents had the “Just Say No” attitude with which practically everyone in this thread seems to agree. But it was relatively easy to just say no to 13-year-olds. Four years later, a large majority of that parent group had migrated to “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell,” or to some other more explicit form of tolerance. A few hadn’t. Of this minority, I would guess that about 1/3 of the kids were in open, constant, bone-wearying conflict with their parents about this and other topics, and many of them were defying their parents on a regular basis. Another third simply did stuff behind their parents’ back. The remaining third had kids who agreed with them and were compliant. Of course, all of the parents in the second group thought (or claimed to think) they were in the third. At the private school my kids used to attend, and where they continued to have many close friends, I would estimate that the truly compliant third-of-the-minority-of-the-half represented, at most, 5-10% of the class.</p>
<p>Why did the parents’ attitudes change? To some extent, peer pressure and social norms in their community. And to some, very significant extent, they weren’t willing to have constant conflict with their children who were, in every other way, completely satisfactory, and when they weren’t had issues that seemed more pressing to address than enforcing prohibition. They were picking their shots.</p>
<p>Not MY D in the case of the mom asking for money. It was my friend’s D. Sorry if my wording was confusing. My friend was reluctant to say who the parent was, but she said it was someone who certainly knows better, and that the offending mom works for the school district. I put that fact together with some other info friend gave me … and I suspect (don’t KNOW) who offending mom is. If it’s who I think it is … I would not just let it go, were this my own D. According to friend, offending mom bought alcohol — no food — and wanted to be reimbursed by all present. It was a bunch of girls on a certain school team. It blows my mind. I told friend that I think she should at least say something to offending mom, but friend is not comfortable with that.</p>
<p>On another note, I am always amazed by parents who allow/ignore risky/illegal behaviors because their kids won’t be popular if they don’t. I recall a mom in D’s kindergarten class whose first question at the end of the first day of kindergarten was, “Is she popular?” Flash forward to now … this girl got pregnant her first semester in college. She & her mom are thrilled. Guess it’s proof to all that the girl is popular, eh? I don’t get it.</p>
<p>I’m always impressed by JHS posts (see #42) They add new ideas to every discussion.</p>
<p>kelsmom, I would totally front out this mom! If you know, think of how many other people know. You’d be doing her a favor.</p>
<p>re JHS’s comments about conflict: Aren’t the teen years full of conflict? IMO, parents are supposed to set boundaries, and kids are supposed to push them. If you set no boundaries and nothing is off limits, they get free rein to get into all kinds of things.</p>
<p>My 2 daughters would be the first to say that I’ve definitely NOT migrated to the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” level of parenting. I think we’ve covered this every which way…Both D1 (now in college) and D2 are certainly in the social outlier/nerd/geek groups. D1’s social calendar was pretty bleak during h.s., but she wasn’t willing to give up her principles for the lifestyle that was predominant at h.s. She attended some get-togethers that had last minute “defectors”…people who decided to go elsewhere when they found out there was alcohol being served at the other place…</p>
<p>Luckily we raised girls who are comfortable with saying no. We’ve talked about all the pressures out there…and have several nephews who run the gammut from being alcoholic to being major pot-heads to both. That’s up close and personal enough to make them realize what’s there. D was mostly prepared for the amount of drinking she’d encounter at college, and has easily fit into a group that doesn’t need to include partying every weekend to have fun. That’s not to say that she hasn’t “imbibed” in college—she has and we’ve talked about it…but she went to school with her eyes open.</p>
<p>Younger D is vice president of SADD club, and we’ve had LOTS of discussions about it…I think she’ll be ok, too. </p>
<p>Our “exposure” that we’ve given to our girls is making a point to show them people who have been totally wasted and the fools they make of themselves (or our extended family members and how it has affected their lives). H lost his best friend in college to a drunk driver. We travel enough (and end up in some off-the-beaten-path places) that they both recognize the smell of pot…but we’ve talked about how far reaching the drug import business is, and how many innocent people are killed and exploited because of drugs.</p>
<p>I don’t know that any parent can swear that they’ve done the right thing—sometimes I think it’s the luck of the draw. One of D’s friends is a complete and totally-sworn tee-totaler; his brother (2 yrs older, at aged 20) is a pot head and drinks like a fish (for at least the last 4 years), and the mom knows (and basically condones) the behavior. D’s friend is the way he is, in spite of his mother (and because of his brother!!!)</p>
<p>One of my nephews apparently has drinking as a EC on his myspace according to my older daughter.
He is attending a university that is infamous for behavior & his occupation ( firefighter) doesn’t generally shy away from partying either.</p>
<p>However- although I have not demanded access to Ds myspace account- I do ask the older D about it from time to time & I trust that she is reporting accurately.
At least right now- I don’t have anything to worry about ( regarding substances)</p>
<p>Differing communication styles…</p>
<p>Some parents weigh in with"what is the worst thing that could happen?" and list tragedies. </p>
<p>By contrast, the kids observe empirically the evidence around them to ask, “Yes, but what USUALLY happens?” and answer to themselves “Not much.” </p>
<p>That’s why JHS post is important. We parents are not addressing what the kids perceive in real time. It’s apples and oranges.</p>
<p>There’s a big difference between “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” and “No parents? Don’t know who’s going to be there? Alcohol involved? Sure, sweetie, go ahead, here are the car keys. See you in the morning.”</p>
<p>Do I believe that my d never had a drink while she was in high school? No. Do I believe that she never smoked a joint in high school? Don’t think so, but wouldn’t be surprised if she had. Did I make sure that I knew who the kids were, and that if she were going to an unfamiliar home, that the parents were present? Yes. Did she know what my expectations were, and that if she broke those expectations that there would be consequences? Yes.</p>
<p>She was not friends with the “partying kids” (the ones who had parties to which police were routinely called). I couldn’t control everything d did while she was in high school, but she knew that there were certain things of which I and her father did not approve. I can’t help but believe that this helped temper her behavior.</p>
<p>JHS, you had me scratching my head at the terms “near universal” and “outliers” in your characterization of drinking and those who don’t. It doesn’t fit our kids’ HS world at all. but then you described:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>and it started to ring more true for us. Our kids went to a very ecomically diverse HS. There was very little drinking among their groups, though they did say that the more typical parties did occur at the houses of the richer kids at “that” end of town. There might be another sizable group of riskier kids at the other economic end, but it didn’t manifest, to my knowledge, in the big party smash-em-up behavior–that’s definitely a rich kid phenomenom around here. ACtually, the saddest story related to wild behavior and non-academically-oriented kids was a car accident involving hot rod speeding that resulted in one death, and the kid who was driving going to jail for several years (acquaintance of my S’s, nice kid, actually.) No drinking was involved, but lots of bad judgment.</p>
<p>I’ve observed the same things as JHS in our county. The drinking parties that get busted seem to mostly happen in the wealthier communities. I’m sure there is some drinking in our more urban very diverse high school, but my kids (who both don’t like the way it tastes) don’t seem to have friends who drink. As far as I can tell most of the high achieving kids aren’t drinking. They have parties where they play boggle! The rumor mill said that last year’s valedictorian was a bit of a partier, but when queried my son didn’t know, his circle of friends didn’t overlap.</p>
<p>I don’t know any parents who would host a drinking party for the kids, so it’s not an issue I’ve had to deal with. I know my nephew (at a DC private school) seemed to be exposed to a lot more drinking than my kids did/do. I know at my private high school many eons ago girls were expelled and suspended regularly for drinking or drugs. </p>
<p>It’s ironic because I think many parents perceive private school as safer than publics, and suburban safer than more urban. Not necessarily the case.</p>
<p>
Thank you, ek - I’m curious about how this would work as well, and I’ve wondered about it since I started reading CC 4 years ago. Would I really sit down at the kitchen table, pour my 16 y/o a shot of something or other, watch her drink it and then say, “This is how you feel after one drink … this is how you feel after two drinks …” I just can’t see myself doing this - it would feel creepy and ridiculous. If it’s not that, would I drive her to a party where I knew there’d be underage drinking and say, “I’ll pick you up after you’ve had a few?” Let her go out with a friend to a party with drinking and say, “Just be sure you have a designated driver?” I’m not being a smartass - I really want to know what “exposure” means. </p>
<p>And I don’t think of myself as a “just say no” kind of parent. I think of myself as a “let’s talk about it” kind of parent. (I was never a “because I said so” kind of parent when they were younger.) Why do you want to drink in high school? Here’s why I don’t want you to. I think it can be dangerous. I don’t see why it’s necessary. It’s illegal, and illegal activities aren’t okay with me. The downside outweighs the up. If not drinking costs you a friend, what kind of friend is that? </p>
<p>I guess I just can’t get past the question of legality. My kids have lots of freedom outside of this area - which is what they have to lose if they choose drinking over not drinking. Their social possibilities in high school were indeed somewhat curtailed. They found a significant number of similarly restricted friends, and managed to slog through.</p>
<p>Oh , this such a controversial topic. I know several parent’s who swear up and down that their kids never drink, yet my kids have told me about the parties those kids have hosted with plenty of alcohol flowing.
My older daugher never had any interest, but it has come up with my current senior… a real slippery slope indeed.
I have also let my kids have wine at the dinner table during holidays.
I know some parents that kept such a tight leash on their kids during high school that by the time they went to college, they had no idea how to handle themselves and flunked out because of the heavy drinking and party scene. One of the girls got a hefty scholarship at a prestigeous school and didn’t make it through freshman year. I don’t think it was just because of drinking, but had something to do with being an only child that was always in the spotlight with pressure from her parents to excel in everything.</p>
<p>One approach for dealing with high school drinking that I shared with my daughter – which I think I picked up on a thread here years ago – is to lie. I didn’t exactly endorse is 100%, but it does seem to have merit for saving face with friends. D was not a big HS partier, but she had an active social life junior and senior year, and I know she was exposed to much drinking and a fair amount of pot. “I can’t drink that tonight because I’m on medicine.” “I don’t drink because my XX is an alcoholic.” “I have bad allergies to smoke.” or – worst come to worst – “Ugh – don’t even show me vodka. Last time I drank that I got so sick.” Keeps the street cred. I’m still not sure how it sits with me, but I offered it up to her arsenal. Have no idea if she ever used it. I did also regularly ask her to hold off until she got a good look at how ridiculous people looked and acted while wasted. She spent more than one night holding the head of a friend over a toilet. That was effective, too. Made it easy to say, “Looks like fun, doesn’t it?”</p>
<p>Such a wide range between having a glass of wine at a family dinner and vomiting into toilets! Maybe it’s the range that could be the discussion.</p>
<p>Speaking of wine with a family dinner, which is our style, I got caught off=guard myself recently. I went to NYC with my l8-year-old son to see the 25-year-old son, and took them both out to a restaurant meal. Feeling completely at ease, in a home-like restaurant, so happy to have them together, I ordered a glass of wine for us all. The waiter carded all 3 of us, removed my younger son’s glass from the table. His older brother quietly poured half of his wine into his brother’s water tumbler, and we proceeded with our meal.</p>
<p>I was sorry I embarrassed my son. Stupid of me. I got nervous, too, wondering if I could be arrested, but all the police were immediately outside carrying out Heath Ledger. Ironic.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.menloschool.org/data/files/gallery/SafeRidesInformation/ParentsGuideParties.pdf[/url]”>http://www.menloschool.org/data/files/gallery/SafeRidesInformation/ParentsGuideParties.pdf</a></p>
<p>This is a guide to parents about teen parties that was developed by a parents’ group at an independent school in an affluent part of the SF Bay Area, distributed to all parents at that school as well as at other independent schools in the area, sometimes complemented by speakers and parent discussions at the school. It can help to get parents on the same page or at least help each family clarify expectations and guidelines.</p>
<p>“but how do they figure drinking rates for minors?”</p>
<p>We have two sources: one is the Healthy Youth Survey, taken by 8th, 10th, and 12th graders (and some 6th graders) every two years. We have survey results going back to 1993, though the timing of survey was changed in 2000, and I only trust data going back that far. We have data on lifetime drinking, past year and past 30 day drinking, binge drinking, drunk or high in school, drinking and driving, and perceptions of risk attached to drinking. You can find the aggregated data at www1.dshs.wa.gov/dasa - look for the Trends Report - I write it every year. We have this data by county, school district, zip code, and school (where the sample size is large enough) as well, though school data is owned by the schools themselves.</p>
<p>We also have survey data from Monitoring the Future, that comes out of the University of Michigan, annually since 1976, and the National Survey on Drug Use and Health, which is made up of 70,000 face-to-face interview surveys. </p>
<p>“I attended Lake Washington high school in the 70’s I imagine their drinking rate was high- going by the size of the parties I attended. ( and by the numbers of students I knew who were injured/killed in alcohol related incidents)
Has it come down since then?”</p>
<p>Drinking rates for all groups under age 18 are lower since the late 70s/early 80s. While they climbed in the 1990s, they are still lower than before the drinking age was raised to 21, which had massive positive impacts. This is generally speaking true at colleges as well, with the exception generally speaking of a bunch of elite colleges, especially in non-urban locations, where binge drinking and heavy drinking peaked (it seems) around 2003-2004, and hasn’t budged much since then.</p>
<p>I think it’s hard to wrap my head around the idea of social drinking wine with teenagers because we just don’t do it. We don’t drink wine with dinner, we have milk. My husband likes a drink maybe when he comes home from work or some beer when he watches sports but it’s not something that would easily fit into a family gathering. And the idea of easing the underage kids into drinking while knowing that if they drink away from home it’s illegal just boggles my mind.</p>
<p>Benego, that was a terrific link. I’ve printed and filed it. thanks.</p>
<p>Don’t know where everyone’s kids go to school on this thread… but when I was in high school (certainly by sophomore year, often by freshman year), almost every weekend involved some kind of party or other social activity that included drinking.</p>
<p>My parents knew, and didn’t really care that much. Their only rules were 1) that if they set a curfew, I be home on time or call them with a very good reason why I couldn’t be; 2) that I never ever drove after any alcohol, or drove with any friend who had had any alcohol; 3) that they had to know in general where I would be and with (generally) who.</p>
<p>As for other parents, the same thing generally went. Almost all of my friends’ parents (and mine) have at one point or another hosted parties that included lots of drinking. A couple of friends’ parents even play beer pong with us.</p>
<p>Maybe my parents and all of my friends’, etc., were horrible, horrible, overly permissive parents (can you tell by my tone that I don’t think so?), but obviously I’ve turned out OK so far. And, to boot, I had a lot more fun in my high school career not having to fight my parents on the issue, and knowing that they didn’t especially care.</p>
<p>Guess we’re all immoral and irresponsible. Oh well… at least I’m having fun with it.</p>