<p>“Yes, if an employee had a reason, they could get a second chance.”</p>
<p>A reason to urinate on someone’s laundry???</p>
<p>Meanwhile, back in the Purple Valley, to paraphrase Marx, “The first nine times feces, the 10th pudding.”</p>
<p><a href=“WSO: Williams Students Online”>WSO: Williams Students Online;
<p>“I agree that property damage is a separate issue, but my guess is that the the perpetrator was under the influence of a substance that reduces inhibitions and increases urine output, and could ask for help.”</p>
<p>“A reason to urinate on someone’s laundry???”</p>
<p>People do far worse under the influence of alcohol and get second chances, when they agree to rehab. I believe the penal system leaves room for forgiveness and change, esp when the crime doesn’t involve the taking of human life or harm to another person.</p>
<p>I would think that a college or university system also has allowances for this type of action, that would involve being on a probation of sorts and community service. I see no problem with that, it is a helpful approach.</p>
<p>Rehab for alcohol, NOT rehab for property destruction. (This is, after all, what I do for a living.) I don’t know any employer that wouldn’t dismiss an employee - the first time - for p-i-s-s-i-n-g on the computer, throwing chairs out windows, or spreading excrement on the walls in common spaces. </p>
<p>Be that as it may, I have never heard of a college in Washington State (which is where I work with college alcohol counselors) that has ever REQUIRED alcohol or drug rehab as a way of getting around suspension or expulsion for property destruction.</p>
<p>In courts in most states, alcohol or drug use cannot be used as basis for a “diminished capacity” defense. In other states where it is still possible, it is very rarely used (except in extreme cases like murder), as prosecutors will ask why the alleged perpetrator didn’t seek help when s/he had the chance.</p>
<p>I too believe in second chances, and third chances, and fourth chances. My entire professional life is built around that belief. But I also don’t believe those chances have to include ruining the environment at colleges costing $45k a year, when the community college would do just fine. It’s not like there aren’t other students begging for the opportunity.</p>
<p>Quote from mini: “Rehab for alcohol, NOT rehab for property destruction. (This is, after all, what I do for a living.) I don’t know any employer that wouldn’t dismiss an employee - the first time - for p-i-s-s-i-n-g on the computer, throwing chairs out windows, or spreading excrement on the walls in common spaces.”</p>
<p>Mr/Ms mini: I don’t quite understand the embellishments in your wording above, maybe you would use these professionally, but we don’t in my line of work.</p>
<p>As to your not knowing of an employer that would keep someone after a “stupid” decision, try film studios or professional sports, for a start. </p>
<p>I am not sure what line of work you do, as you on other occasions have said “that’s what I know about!”, maybe you are a statistician for a government agency? </p>
<p>There are all kinds of forgiving actions taken by employers and colleges, that maybe are not accounted for in your statistics. Just as you want me to take your word for it, please take mine. I am in no way going to reveal who I am or what I do on an anonymous website, but I do speak from a lot of experience with a variety of people and situations.</p>
<p>I can respect your perspective, please respect mine and others who may have had different experiences in a variety of situations. </p>
<p>Thank you.</p>
<p>I am a senior state planner for the delivery of alcohol/drug treatment rehabilitation services to some 55,000 people a year. </p>
<p>I am sure colleges “forgive” all the time. In fact, that’s quite obvious. They wouldn’t have urinators, droppers, spreaders, and bombardiers if they didn’t. But I don’t think their interests, or the interests of the vast majority of students, or even the long-term interests of the offenders, are being well-served. Putting it on the offending students’ transcripts, and mandating completion of alcohol/drug treatment as a condition of getting it off would be a huge step in the right direction. But I’ve never seen that anywhere.</p>
<p>My son left his backpack in the hall at school and found it full of urine, soaking his books and gym clothes :insert puking gif here:</p>
<p>He complained to the Dean and after questioning several students who had free period when this happened, it was determined that it was done by two of his “friends” as a “joke”. They each received a day of suspension which will be on their HS record and two weeks of work duty during their free period.</p>
<p>I didn’t get it then and I don’t get it now. Why all the urination and feces issues as schools? Maybe I missed that trend when I was younger but I don’t think so.</p>
<p>PrimetimeMom, that is awful. As I have written here before, until I read CC, I had not heard of all this peeing and pooing in public at colleges either. I live a sheltered life, I’m afraid. </p>
<p>However, I agree with CollegialMom when it comes to discipline policies at colleges. I have read the policy at one of my D’s universities. It outlines the rules and the various consequences and the judicial process for offenses. With many offenses, there is a step by step level of consequences rising in severity depending on if it is the first offense, second, etc. and/or depending on the severity of the offense…as to where the level of consequences will be applied. I believe in such a system. I have been a teacher and implemented that sort of discipline plan as well in my classrooms. I think consequences are needed and they need to be more severe depending on the offense and/or if the person repeats misbehavior. It should be strictly enforced. </p>
<p>However, I do not agree with Mini to expell students the first time they do these sorts of things. The consquence should be significant and the second offense should warrant a more severe consequence. Such policies and processes are fair in a learning environment. These are NOT employers. If a student is caught drinking…they get the first level of consequence. If they get caught again, it is dealt with more severely. If a student has harmed the property of another or the facilities, they jump to a more severe consequence right off. I don’t think these types of things (underage drinking, urinating in public) warrant expulsion on the first offense. I do think they warrant swift and significant consequences and according to well documented policies and due process.</p>
<p>Mini:</p>
<p>I don’t know about this particular incident because there’s just no information about what happened and who may have done it, but…</p>
<p>I know for a fact that Swarthmore routinely sends students to the head of Psych services for an alcohol problem evaluation as an early step following an alcohol related behavioral incident. This evaluation is a parallel track to any disciplinary action. However, disciplinary actions can, and do, include mandatory completion of treatment/counseling programs.</p>
<p>For example, the frat pledge who threw a table off a balcony was referred to psych services for an alcohol workup immediately, according to the school newspaper. He was subsequently suspended from Swarthmore in a judicial counsel proceeding with terms for his future reinstatement that made it effectively impossible for him to return, i.e. completion of academic requirements that would require him to enroll in another college for a full year of college credit transferable to Swarthmore. Although moot, given the other preconditions, there were also counseling program requirements as a precondition for consideration of reinstatement.</p>
<p>I also know of an alcohol-related hospital transport case that resulted in a mandatory evaluation by psych services. That case also resulted in a mandatory alcohol program and community service requirement – although those two may have been imposed by the local magistrate as part of a deferred prosecution agreement. Alcohol transports get an automatic underage drinking citation by the local police.</p>
<p>“I know for a fact that Swarthmore routinely sends students to the head of Psych services for an alcohol problem evaluation as an early step following an alcohol related behavioral incident. This evaluation is a parallel track to any disciplinary action. However, disciplinary actions can, and do, include mandatory completion of treatment/counseling programs.”</p>
<p>Sure they weren’t mandatory “alcohol information programs”? (The reason I ask is because while it is possible/legal to suspend/expel a student pending their completion of a treatment program, I doubt it is legal to require treatment as part of a disciplinary proceeding. Subtle difference (and, for many, a distinction without a difference), but to the degree that “treatment” is seen as a health service, in our state only a court of law can compel treatment. (as you noted - parallel track). </p>
<p>Good thing either way. (What do you do with “pudding people”?)</p>
<p>I actually do think this can be done in colleges, are you sure it isn’t being done at colleges in your state?</p>
<p>Mini:</p>
<p>I understand the distinction. To be clear, Swarthmore refers disciplinary students to psych services for an alcohol evaluation. They have included treatment programs in the preconditions for reinstatement of suspended students. </p>
<p>You are probably right that they cannot force a student into a treatment program. On the other hand, most behavior infractions (short of suspension or expulsion) are handled on an informal basis, known at Swat as “Dean’s Justice”. So, I imagine there could be some strong “recommendations” in those discussions. Very few students are formally suspended. A larger number take a “voluntary” semester off following discussions among the student, family, and deans.</p>
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<p>Thanks for the kind words, collegialmom. One shouldnt take the collegial part of your screen name too literally, right?</p>
<p>I am not sure what a parent ot ■■■■■ is. Since you were clever enough to determine when last I posted, you probably know my status and relationship with Swarthmore. Whats yours?</p>
<p>As for reincarnation, I wish I could believe. Sadly, I think we go through just once. Which is why I dont spend as much time as others posting (though I did learn how to use the PM function so that I could provide information I hope is useful to posters when the opportunity arises. But you wouldnt know that.)</p>
<p>Wonderful school, Swarthmore. So are dozens of others. I tire of the proselytizing that some advocates engage in. Endlessly. And it ain’t perfect. None is. And it certainly is not the right match for many.</p>
<p>As for my sarcastic remarks, I dont think they were about Swarthmore, or its students… b/t/w, any chance youre IDs better half?</p>
<p>Remember, sarcasm is the sincerest form of flattery. Regards.</p>
<p>Quote: “b/t/w, any chance youre IDs better half?”</p>
<p>If interesteddad were my “half”, he would certainly be the better part of it. His posts about Swarthmore give incredible information, I have learned so much from him.</p>