UVa considering growth/higher tuition model

Colleges & Universities University of Virginia
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<p>We are IS from NOVA who had to seriously consider some amazing offers my daughter got to go elsewhere, even from OOS privates that would have been more affordable for us than UVA will be. We are stretching our budget because we feel UVA is the best place for her and it is where she most wants to be. I can only hope if they raise costs we will still be able to make it work which I expect it will. Also, we are those that fall under not being able to afford SAT tutoring, etc - up here in NOVA I was hearing 2K for most “go to” programs and that was way over anything we could have spent.</p>

<p>On the other hand, she was also accepted to Berkeley and received decent aid as well but even with 25K in aid it left a balance more than total cost at UVA. I think though for those of us that are caught in the lower but not low-low income arena we will always have to carefully evaluate all options and IS will never be the obvious cheapest route. I do however feel it is a great value for the price and education and am just as excited as my daughter is that she will be starting in not too many more weeks!</p>

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<p>^ It’s called the ‘donut hole’. Many who live in NOVA fall into this category. It is not an area where ‘all can be afforded’. There are many families that strive for affordable housing, send their students to public school, and live within their means. Increasing financial aid will not help these families. They are ones that will potentially be priced out.</p>

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<p>weldon- I honestly appreciate your viewpoint on this but, two points of contention. </p>

<p>One- just two months ago they just did raise the IS tuition rates 9.9% $1000- or if you want to be exact- $956 and 6% $1902 out of the OOS wallet. IS and OOS got off easy last year bc of the federal stimulus money…$1000 next year too? No. It has to stop somewhere. </p>

<p>Two- There are a lot of upper middle class folks who aren’t going to see any AccessUVA or financial aid money. $20K+ a year is tough for that group. I’m not whining. It is what it is. A lot of saved college education money is now being tapped into or is gone bc of the recession. What it amounts to is the state schools need to be a place that can be affordable and reachable. Being a state resident and lifelong tax payer should count for something. Not an automatic admission to a school, mind you, but a place that isn’t out of reach to attend if admitted. </p>

<p>The state of Virginia needs to get its priorities straight and put more money back into these schools, not leave it up to the parents-IS or OOS. If that doesn’t happen and they keep raising these rates, I think you are going to see the socio-economic divide of students occur at UVA much like what hazelorb described is happening at Michigan. It would be a shame. As an OOS resident who can’t vote here, your hands are kind of tied, but we taxpayers need to really pay attention to this issue come election time. If our schools suffer, so does the state in many, many ways.</p>

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<p>^ Kandk: my comments are based purely on the assumption that the state of Va’s approach isn’t going to change. As a former Virginia resident, the apparent attitude of the state government in this area is very puzzling to me as well. It seems almost as if they are deliberately trying to strangle what should be points of pride for Va. However, you should also bear in mind that as long as in-state tuition is only a percentage of actual cost, a lot of upper-middle class kids are in effect being subsidized by other taxpayers- including lower-income families, many of whose own children will never attend college; just something to think about.</p>

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<p>I do think as a state we have many great IS options that are of value to our students, including the guaranteed transfer arrangement and some very good CCs. I certianly agree we should be making these options a priority as they are a very strong feature of our state for potential residents. I don’t yet believe they are doing otherwise but will be curious what the next few years bring.</p>

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<p>It’s not like taxes go just to UVA. Those education taxes go to K-12 schools, community colleges, and other colleges and universities. And taxes of course are different amounts based on your income, so I’d like to believe that people are for the most part paying a fair share. But I don’t have any data on that…</p>

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<p>I did not read the entire thread, so forgive me if this is a repeat.</p>

<p>From the article: “The average tuition price tag at UVa’s public and private peer institutions was $21,284 for in-state students and $35,858 for out-of-state students during the 2009-10 academic year. At UVa, tuition and fees were $9,872 for in-state students and $31,872 for out-of-state students.”</p>

<p>I love how they average private college tuition in the peer institution category as if UVa has no public peers. I would argue that UVa has about maxed out what it can charge for OOS. </p>

<p>From the article: "A professor currently teaching two classes, Wynne said, might feasibly pick up a third. "That could increase their time in the classroom by a third,” he said. “It probably wouldn’t cost a third more to do that.”</p>

<p>I am guessing that a UVA math professor might note that this would increase class load by half.</p>

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<p>I’m as strong a supporter of higher ed as nayone but the standard 2 class/semester load for most profs at major publics and privates just seems very light to me–especially in the liberal arts and business where they are not spending hours in a lab doing research. I think the top privates set that standard and any school that wanted to compete at that level had to follow. Very hard to explain that one to the taxpayers. And it makes them wonder about all other spending at the school.</p>

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<p>At our community college, full-time professors teach five sections. No research or publishing is expected.</p>

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<p>USNews has an article related to this topic of discussion some may be interested in.</p>

<p>[Most</a> Public Colleges Face Budget Cut Threats in 2011 - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/paying-for-college/2010/07/12/most-public-colleges-face-budget-cut-threats-in-2011.html]Most”>http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/paying-for-college/2010/07/12/most-public-colleges-face-budget-cut-threats-in-2011.html)</p>

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<p>I think it was mentioned earlier in the thread (see post #8) that most professors (other than those engaged in research as a part of their contracts) teach three courses. Two is not a typical load. The poster, jingle, is a UVA prof. </p>

<p>Should course loads increase, it seems to me that those additional responsibilities would most likely fall upon the more junior professors - those who are also working to publish in their field. Unless something has changed drastically, publication in the field is usually a requirement for tenure, regardless of whether you are in the sciences or not.</p>

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<p>Sorry for being MIA on all of this and not really wanting to take the time to re-read everything. I lost my four-legged best friend/brother last night and I spent the day doing errands and sleeping. Funny how I’ve realized how much I’ve matured over the years in college. He taught me to love and grow and UVa echoed that, quite a bit (and even let him in on occasion!). Things that you love will come and go, but that dog and this university will stay with me, for forever.</p>

<p>Anyways…today’s topic
The load of professors is hard to set in stone. I had a STS teacher (responsible for our engineering thesis) and she had three courses, 86 students. She was SO overworked and we all knew it and I think our thesises (uh…plural for thesis?) were hurt by it. She tried, really really hard to make it work, but how can you turn around 80 12-page papers nearly overnight? And sure, we could’ve turned them in earlier, but then we wouldn’t have gotten all the class/out-of-class help. When we turned in our final papers, which were up to 24-pages, she was swamped. All of my other engineering teachers usually taught 2 courses and they struggled trying to fit in office hours not only for undergrads but the post-grads who’s degrees were dependent on their advisor’s help. Not to mention most, if not all, engineering teachers are advisors. And they were humans, they deserved their weekends just like you and me.</p>

<p>Also, lots of teachers, especially at UVA (and Hazel, I think you know of one CS teacher like this…) aren’t focused on writing. I had a CS teacher that when the annual report on teacher salaries came out and we found out he only makes 60K a year (which is less than most of his new grads make) he said it’s because he’s never published. He just loves his subject, loves to teach, and does it for these passions, not the paycheck. If UVa, or any school, discriminates against these types of teachers, it’s not going to be the same type of education. They’ll feel pressured to focus less on students and more on their lifestyle and paycheck and what has to happen to reach the optimal level, at the expense of students.
When I was in Elem/Middle/High school, SOLs (standardized testing of VA) was not as big of a deal as it is today. Sure, we had to pass them, but if we didn’t you weren’t held back or separated or anything. Teachers weren’t penalized either. Now, teachers get “grades” based on how well their classes perform. Uh, hello, in primary and secondary education, parents play a HUGE role in their child’s learning. If they’re not helping the child, expanding their horizons, and teaching them themselves, their kid isn’t going to do well. But, teachers are still forced to teach by the book for SOLs. When I was in school we played with chicks and butterflies and had Art and PE and learned algebra if you were ready and read whatever book fit your reading style and played Oregon Trail (<3). I think I received a great, enriching, mind-opening education. Now, everyone is just learning out of a book. I see this coming to state universities, and it’s sad to squish the fun professors have in teaching.</p>

<p>As for money, UVa planned for spending their money in some wrong ways. The new Education building is the only good thing I’ve seen them do and that’s because they needed new space, fast. But the CommSchool got another building and dumped a crapton of money into all their TVs and LCD panels outside classrooms. I understand it’s the #1 Business school, but comeon. And they’re tearing down New Dorms because they don’t look pretty…yeah well the E-school looks god-awful inside, has labs/death-traps downstairs with no sprinkler systems because UVa “forgot” to hook up a water supply (true story), and smells. Old Cabel Hall? My uncle (COL '64) asked if “that hideous, decrepit excuse of a building” is still there. </p>

<p>Charge OOS more. Make small increments on IS payments (or, when you enter, that’s your fixed 4-year price). Figure out a less wasteful system in the dining halls. Build when things need to get built. Stop throwing lavish parties all the time. Etc Etc Etc. Oh, and don’t increase enrollment, overwork teachers, and turn our beloved UVa into UMich, and then maybe alumni will still send checks.</p>

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<p>I don’t get the attitude toward OOS. Charge them more! IS at UVA is a bargain so stop whining. An increase in tuition should be spread between IS and OOS in some way. If you keep raising OOS tuition and fees disproportionately, you will price them out of the market. They eventually will look elsewhere for the same quality or better education. If this happens, UVA will go down in the rankings and IS tuition and fees would go up. There are plenty of other equal or better schools out there.</p>

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<p>Shoe,</p>

<p>I have to admit that I was shocked to see how little most of my instructors were paid. It made me appreciate their help even more as I knew that they just loved to teach. Not only did they teach, they all faced the pressure of having to apply for grants constantly in order to fund their labs and research. </p>

<p>I am sure glad I didn’t pick academia as a career objective. When I see the comments by the ■■■■■■ regarding highly-paid professors in the newspapers, I have to laugh.</p>

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<p>barrons, it’s not just the science professors who do research. Humanities professors are generally expected to publish, at minimum, one scholarly book with a highly regarded academic press, and to have the beginnings of a national reputation in their field, before coming up for tenure. Doing original scholarly work in the humanities varies depending on the field, but generally involves a ton of work in libraries and archives. </p>

<p>The tenure evaluation for a research faculty member in any field–at UVA or any peer institution–involves soliciting confidential reviews of the candidate’s work and potential from 8-10 senior experts at peer institutions, as well as the close attention of the department’s senior members to the candidate’s scholarly output. Once the department has made its decision, there are another two rounds of scrutiny at the College and University level, involving full professors from other departments and from other parts of the University. After tenure, there are annual performance reviews by the department chair and the dean. For promotion from associate to full professor one needs to have an international reputation in one’s field, which generally means, at minimum, one more well-regarded book, a bunch of articles and conference appearances, and visible service in professional scholarly societies.</p>

<p>Of course, quality of teaching and service to the University are also taken very seriously–I’ve seen plenty of tenure and promotion cases scuttled for weaknesses in those areas–but for research faculty both in sciences and in the humanities, excellence in research is (and should be) required.</p>

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<p>poor shoe!! i hope you’re feeling a little better.
i looooove the cs teaching track faculty. every time i have to work for tenure track faculty, a little piece of me dies. haha. i am glad to be back under a teaching track faculty member next semester. even if they are overworking them.</p>

<p>and don’t even get me started on math SOLs, especially your comment about algebra (that’s what I’m going to be student teaching). I mean, at upward bound, these kids were supposedly taking algebra ii the next school year and you couldn’t tell they had passed their pre-algebra sol test. i am not lying. i asked them to find the equation of a line between two points (3 times… so 3 questions… that was the whole homework), standard algebra 1 sol question, and they all complained the next day the homework was too hard!!! yup. story of my life.</p>

<p>anyways, my brother and i were eating fruit snacks tonight. they were shaped like zoo animals. i told my brother if i ever have to teach food chains, i am buying those fruit snacks and my students can use them to make a food chain. then they can eat them because we are at the top of the food chain. yupppp. there are still lots of great ways to teach the sols. but it does mean you can’t just do chicks or butterflies or whatever depending on your mood anymore. do you know how many math videos on youtube there are?? some of my favorites are bad pimance, every math parody to tik tok and milkshake and crank that (math term), etc… so not all is lost. but the fact that kids who can’t do anything with fractions are in algebra ii is wrong. oops you got me started i guess!!</p>

<p>finally – how big are your classes at a community college? are they 500 person classes? 100 person? 50 person? the smallest math classes are typically 40-50 people (unless you are taking an elective such as number theory or something), these are upper level classes. and there is a difference between lecturer (most lecturers i know teach 3 classes), teaching track (teaching 2 full courses, in addition to undergrad advising) and tenure track, tenured or working towards it (teaching 1 class of 2 sections, or 2 classes with just 1 section and maybe a seminar, in addition to phd student advising, research, etc – this holds true for professors i can think of in cs, math, education, foreign language…). Think about the poor quality of research (hence, less grants, hence, less money) that would occur if those professors needed to teach more classes. In addition to not getting a raise. They will all leave or retire!!</p>

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<p>Man this thread is getting a ton of action…</p>

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<p>“…don’t even get me started on math SOLs.” My BIL teaches in VA and I always found it amusing that the state test is SOL. Where I am from S-O-L means something quite different.</p>

<p>My classes at the CC are limited to 15 students and sometimes I have fewer than that. Most credit classes are capped at about 30 and there are a few lecture sections offered in different classes.</p>

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<p>haha when you are a teacher you just forget about the other meaning… or you just figure they are close enough! ;)</p>

<p>i know i’ve replied more to this thread than most other threads ever probably…</p>

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<p>I’m well aware of the tenure requirements in varying fields. However science and engineering profs are EXPECTED to bring in more than their weight in research contracts to support the overall operation. Humanities profs have the summer to work on books and research while the paid research folks have to produce year-round, supervise their labs and grad students, write grant proposals and publish as well as do appearances at other schools and all the rest. That’s why they make twice the average humanities salary.</p>